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Post by frienduff on Aug 7, 2019 11:58:17 GMT -5
As far as not taking me up on the offer, I think the restrictions have a lot to do with it, plus they don't have all the advantages of having the head Administrator on their side, and moderators jumping in too. It is not friendly territory for them. It is not like we would be mean to anyone, but we are plain in taking a stand against unconditional eternal security.
Isnt it something that our eternal security HAD CONDITIONS on even BEING HIS DESCIPLE . Rather odd most try and omit those . Did not JESUS HIMSELF , who many claim as eternal security say IF , IF Just as did paul and others . I suppose IF is the most hated word in the new testament for those who cling to what men taught , and hermes taught . BUT IF , oops I said it again , IF WE LOVE THE LORD WE GONNA LOVE EVERY WORD HE SPOKE and all those letters HE INSPIRED bythe apostels . Including the WORD IF .
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Post by NOT BB on Aug 8, 2019 1:21:21 GMT -5
WAKE UP !!! Lol....
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Post by John on Aug 8, 2019 4:18:51 GMT -5
I am not sure who you are NOT BB, but you must be on the west coast or something. I get up early, but not that early. If you want to discuss this topic, you can write a post and someone will be along to read it at some point.
Thanks for dropping by NOT BB.
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Post by frienduff on Aug 8, 2019 6:14:58 GMT -5
And ps , PUT THOSE HANDS UP AND PRAISE THE LORD .
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Post by John on Aug 8, 2019 8:09:08 GMT -5
In case anyone is interested in having this debate, I want to get back to the original guidelines. We have kind of wandered off course because there was no immediate response, so I am going to go back to the beginning and re-post what is expected of those who wish to discuss Unconditional Security here at Narrow Way Forums. I am not going to have dozens of threads on this topic like is occurring in other places.
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Post by John on Aug 8, 2019 8:09:24 GMT -5
I have been involved in my fair share of OSAS debates over the years. They become filled with emotions, scare tactics, claims that hermeneutics don't support this or that view, catch phrases repeated at nauseum, accusations against others for being prideful or not believing God. It goes on and on. What I am not seeing is real substance and simply discussing scripture. It is not a valid argument to claim my view must be wrong because it contradicts a scripture you hold to. It may just as easily be said that your scripture must not mean what you say because it contradicts my scripture.
Here is what I am willing to do. The official position of Narrow Way Forums is that OSAS is a false doctrine. Anyone promoting it is in opposition to our Statement of Faith, and their posts may be removed. That goes for all areas including the Visitor's Forum. Here is what I am willing to try. Anyone can post in this section, including visitors. If you can have a civil discussion that avoids the tactics I mentioned, I will discuss this with you. Keep in mind that the KJV Bible is what we go by, not Greek and Hebrew manuscripts. You may use other translations, but if it contradicts the KJV Bible, we revert back to that as the final authority. Endorsements of preachers who support one view or the other are not allowed and will be removed, as will video links or links to other web-sites.
One other thing. Continually repeating the same scriptures over and over wont be allowed. If you want to discuss a scripture, do it and move on. Make it count, but leave out emotional appeals or personal attacks. Posts will be edited or removed at our discretion if these guidelines aren't followed. If your view has substance, you should welcome this opportunity.
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Post by John on Aug 15, 2019 21:11:31 GMT -5
I want to address something here from the Book of Romans. This is a verse that those who hold to OSAS like to use to try to prove you can't lose salvation. It is Romans 4:8
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
What they are claiming is that the man that the Lord will not impute sin to is anyone that believes in Jesus. Of course, the verse never says that, but that is the claim they are making. What does this verse mean? Is it really saying that a person who believes in Jesus can literally do anything they want and God will not impute that sin to them? The word impute means to assign or credit. If the verse actually meant that, God could never even chastise a person when they commit sin because the sin was never assigned or credited to them. How can God punish someone for something he didn't even recognize them doing? How could he punish Ananias and Sapphira? Clearly, this is not meaning that you can commit any sin and never have any consequences. So what is this talking about?
In the first chapters of Paul's letter to the Romans, Paul is speaking of life under the law without Christ. He is explaining that those who try to be saved by keeping the law will fail, because the law cannot save. Romans 3:20 says...
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
But there were still people that were old associates of Paul that were trying to be saved that way. They rejected Christ, but tried to keep the law. Paul understood this because he had once been among them persecuting the Christian church. So that is what Paul is speaking of all the way up to the final verse of chapter 7. You can't be justified without faith in Christ, and Romans 3:23 states that "all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." We are also told that the wages or penalty of sin is death. If the law can't wash away sins, what can? The answer is Jesus Christ.
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
You will notice it only says sins past, not past, present and future, as many teach today. There is no scripture that says all sins past, present and future are automatically under the blood, but this is a lie that has been repeated so long, many think it is in the Bible. It is not. What sins are not imputed? Past sins, because the moment you accept Christ as your Lord and Savior, they are all under the blood and not imputed or charged to you. Because of this, and the fact it is impossible to get saved by keeping the law apart from Christ, there can be no boasting. We were saved from our past sins without the deeds of the law. Chapter 3:31 says...
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid; yea, we establish the law.
They will totally ignore that verse. They will cherry pick chapter 4:8 out of context and keep repeating this over and over as absolute proof they are right. Here is what you need to understand. None of us can save ourselves by choosing to live right and turn over a new leaf. There is no remedy for those past sins Romans 3:25 spoke of except the blood of Jesus. That is how faith saves you. Once you get saved, you have to choose to take up your cross each day and follow Jesus. You can't continue to live like the old man of sin and think you will be alright. True faith brings about change in your walk. That is why 1 John 3:9,10 says...
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
I hope that this clears things up for everyone as to the true meaning of this verse and the first part of Romans.
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Post by John on Aug 16, 2019 5:42:37 GMT -5
This morning, I want to address another favorite scripture of the OSAS crowd. It is another couple of verses from Romans. In Romans 8:38,39 it says...
For I am persuade, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Is there anything here that says that those who are saved can commit all the sins they want and are eternally secure? Is the word sin in this list? How about willful or presumptuous sin? No. It is speaking of things out of our control. On the list is death, life, angels, principalities, powers, things present, things to come, height, depth, other creatures. This is saying that outside forces cannot separate us from the love of God. It never says anything about choices we make. That is the first thing I want to point out.
Next comes the question of who Paul is speaking to. Is he speaking to everyone that reads Romans? Clearly not, because people that hate God read the Bible to find reasons to criticize. He is speaking of the elect, those God chose through predestination to save before the foundation of the earth. You see, God knows everything that will ever happen down to the smallest detail. He knew you and me before he created this earth, and he knew when he formed us in our Mother's womb who would be saved. We do make the decision, but God already knew what it would be. Let's go back some verses in this same 8th chapter of Romans, all the way back to verse 28 to see the context.
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified, and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
The people Paul is speaking to are not just ones that can point to a time where they knelt down at an alter and uttered a sinner's prayer. He is speaking of the people God predestined to be saved before he even fashioned them. Yes, the elect of God will be saved. Those are the ones that God gave to His son Jesus Christ, and yes, they will make it to heaven. Nothing can change that, but all this means is that God already knew the decisions they would make because He is God and He knows everything. He knew who would endure till the end and who would not. He knew who would enter the race and who would actually finish it. It has nothing to do with unconditional security. Now, let's look at more of the passage from verses 31-35 in context.
What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Again, who is Paul speaking to? He is speaking to "God's elect." Those are people that God chose before he created them, not everyone that can point to a time where they prayed a prayer and not everyone that simply believes that Jesus is the Son of God. Only God knows who His elect are. They are the people that enter the race and finish the race, but we have no way of knowing who will continue faithful till the end. We can't even know what we will do in the future. We believe that we will continue, but only God knows if that is the case. Now, let's look at the rest of Romans chapter 8, verses 35 through 39.
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Now we see an even bigger list. Added to the original one we looked at, we have tribulation, distress, persecution, famine, nakedness, peril and sword. What is missing from this list? There is nothing about sin. It is only mentioning things that are out of our control. Who is Paul speaking to? He is speaking to God's predestined elect. I am not suggesting that we are not making our own decisions. We most certainly are, but God knows what they will be in advance, and the majority of the scriptures people twist to promote unconditional security are in reality speaking of those foreordained by God to eternal life.
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Post by frienduff on Aug 16, 2019 7:35:11 GMT -5
This morning, I want to address another favorite scripture of the OSAS crowd. It is another couple of verses from Romans. In Romans 8:38,39 it says...
For I am persuade, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Is there anything here that says that those who are saved can commit all the sins they want and are eternally secure? Is the word sin in this list? How about willful or presumptuous sin? No. It is speaking of things out of our control. On the list is death, life, angels, principalities, powers, things present, things to come, height, depth, other creatures. This is saying that outside forces cannot separate us from the love of God. It never says anything about choices we make. That is the first thing I want to point out.
Next comes the question of who Paul is speaking to. Is he speaking to everyone that reads Romans? Clearly not, because people that hate God read the Bible to find reasons to criticize. He is speaking of the elect, those God chose through predestination to save before the foundation of the earth. You see, God knows everything that will ever happen down to the smallest detail. He knew you and me before he created this earth, and he knew when he formed us in our Mother's womb who would be saved. We do make the decision, but God already knew what it would be. Let's go back some verses in this same 8th chapter of Romans, all the way back to verse 28 to see the context.
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified, and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
The people Paul is speaking to are not just ones that can point to a time where they knelt down at an alter and uttered a sinner's prayer. He is speaking of the people God predestined to be saved before he even fashioned them. Yes, the elect of God will be saved. Those are the ones that God gave to His son Jesus Christ, and yes, they will make it to heaven. Nothing can change that, but all this means is that God already knew the decisions they would make because He is God and He knows everything. He knew who would endure till the end and who would not. He knew who would enter the race and who would actually finish it. It has nothing to do with unconditional security. Now, let's look at more of the passage from verses 31-35 in context.
What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Again, who is Paul speaking to? He is speaking to "God's elect." Those are people that God chose before he created them, not everyone that can point to a time where they prayed a prayer and not everyone that simply believes that Jesus is the Son of God. Only God knows who His elect are. They are the people that enter the race and finish the race, but we have no way of knowing who will continue faithful till the end. We can't even know what we will do in the future. We believe that we will continue, but only God knows if that is the case. Now, let's look at the rest of Romans chapter 8, verses 35 through 39.
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Now we see an even bigger list. Added to the original one we looked at, we have tribulation, distress, persecution, famine, nakedness, peril and sword. What is missing from this list? There is nothing about sin. It is only mentioning things that are out of our control. Who is Paul speaking to? He is speaking to God's predestined elect. I am not suggesting that we are not making our own decisions. We most certainly are, but God knows what they will be in advance, and the majority of the scriptures people twist to promote unconditional security are in reality speaking of those foreordained by God to eternal life.
Two things . YOU are correct SIN is never mentioned in that verse . But now for the second thing . HOW COME WHEN SIN IS MENTIONED it was always GO and SIN NO MORE , let it not be named once among you , I told you those who do such things WILL NOT inherit the kingdom of GOD , be therefore not partakers with them . YOU RIGHT , its not mentioned in that verse , BUT EVERY TIME IT IS really and truly mentioned it echoes what JESUS said , GO and SIN NO MORE . Rather odd that many will put SIN in a place where it was NEVER ONCE MENTIONED . YET in every other place IT IS , they seem to often IGNORE . or down play or etc . Just something to ponder on . JESUS is OUR ETERNAL SECURITY , that truth alone can never be changed . But our eternal security WHO IS JESUS , sure did have conditions . YE CANNOT EVEN BE MY DESICPLE .............
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2019 11:38:39 GMT -5
Butero is making some good points. Those who believe in OSAS are singling out some scriptures while ignoring or twisting others to try and make them fit their belief.
One things I would like to say about God's righteousness being imputed to us....we still do need His imputed righteousness after coming to faith. There is a matter of sins committed in ignorance, as well as iniquity in the heart/soul that believers may not yet be aware of to be able to repent of those things and be healed....so while I agree the sins of the past are forgiven, there are sins/iniquities present that God graciously chooses to not count against us while we work out our salvation.
There is a reason why we have judges and not just written laws than anybody can look up and decide accordingly....that is so the judge can hear all the facts and exercise their discretion/judgment and not just decide solely by the unmerciful letter of the law. Eg, there was a time when a man would be sentenced to hard labour for life for poaching a rabbit to feed his starving family...and by the letter of the law this was right.....but seeing through a lens of grace and mercy there would be more leniency. God is our judge and only He knows all the facts of each individual case and how far He is willing to let a matter go, or whether He will either overlook a thing or drop the hammer. It's why if we judge ourselves we will not be judged with the world...when we judge ourselves it means that with the mind we are serving Him and hating our faults and that He is willing to count that it is no longer we who sin but sin living in us, while we endeavour in sincerity to deal with whatever the problem is we are facing. The Lord has mercy on us in our predicaments and it certainly is good news for us that He is longsuffering....but if we were to take that for granted or abuse it then expect it to end sooner rather than later for neither is God mocked.
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Post by John on Aug 16, 2019 15:43:22 GMT -5
Butero is making some good points. Those who believe in OSAS are singling out some scriptures while ignoring or twisting others to try and make them fit their belief. One things I would like to say about God's righteousness being imputed to us....we still do need His imputed righteousness after coming to faith. There is a matter of sins committed in ignorance, as well as iniquity in the heart/soul that believers may not yet be aware of to be able to repent of those things and be healed....so while I agree the sins of the past are forgiven, there are sins/iniquities present that God graciously chooses to not count against us while we work out our salvation. There is a reason why we have judges and not just written laws than anybody can look up and decide accordingly....that is so the judge can hear all the facts and exercise their discretion/judgment and not just decide solely by the unmerciful letter of the law. Eg, there was a time when a man would be sentenced to hard labour for life for poaching a rabbit to feed his starving family...and by the letter of the law this was right.....but seeing through a lens of grace and mercy there would be more leniency. God is our judge and only He knows all the facts of each individual case and how far He is willing to let a matter go, or whether He will either overlook a thing or drop the hammer. It's why if we judge ourselves we will not be judged with the world...when we judge ourselves it means that with the mind we are serving Him and hating our faults and that He is willing to count that it is no longer we who sin but sin living in us, while we endeavour in sincerity to deal with whatever the problem is we are facing. The Lord has mercy on us in our predicaments and it certainly is good news for us that He is longsuffering....but if we were to take that for granted or abuse it then expect it to end sooner rather than later for neither is God mocked. You make a lot of good points. We would be in trouble if we were cast away for things we had no idea were sin. There are many cases where something is obvious. Nobody should have to tell you stealing, adultery or murder is sin, but there are things we may do and genuinely have no idea about, like horoscopes. Many people follow them faithfully, become a Christian, and have no idea that is a sin because nobody preaches about things like that. I don't believe God is going to cast someone away for those kind of things before they come to knowledge. In cases like that, I do believe grace comes in.
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Post by frienduff on Aug 16, 2019 15:54:01 GMT -5
Butero is making some good points. Those who believe in OSAS are singling out some scriptures while ignoring or twisting others to try and make them fit their belief. One things I would like to say about God's righteousness being imputed to us....we still do need His imputed righteousness after coming to faith. There is a matter of sins committed in ignorance, as well as iniquity in the heart/soul that believers may not yet be aware of to be able to repent of those things and be healed....so while I agree the sins of the past are forgiven, there are sins/iniquities present that God graciously chooses to not count against us while we work out our salvation. There is a reason why we have judges and not just written laws than anybody can look up and decide accordingly....that is so the judge can hear all the facts and exercise their discretion/judgment and not just decide solely by the unmerciful letter of the law. Eg, there was a time when a man would be sentenced to hard labour for life for poaching a rabbit to feed his starving family...and by the letter of the law this was right.....but seeing through a lens of grace and mercy there would be more leniency. God is our judge and only He knows all the facts of each individual case and how far He is willing to let a matter go, or whether He will either overlook a thing or drop the hammer. It's why if we judge ourselves we will not be judged with the world...when we judge ourselves it means that with the mind we are serving Him and hating our faults and that He is willing to count that it is no longer we who sin but sin living in us, while we endeavour in sincerity to deal with whatever the problem is we are facing. The Lord has mercy on us in our predicaments and it certainly is good news for us that He is longsuffering....but if we were to take that for granted or abuse it then expect it to end sooner rather than later for neither is God mocked. The law even said , if a thief steals because he is hungry , despise him not . BUT for sure he will repay four fold etc when he is caught . BUT NOT to despise such a one . It also if the poor come to your fields to let them . IN fact in the law it said , do not GLEAN , leave some for the poor . Man is the one who took things out of the law and outta text too . God would never have been opposed to anyone hunting rabbits . THAT is man . Folks gotta eat . Man has made some wacked out laws that are not in accordance at all with HOW GOD sees things . Let us also keep the mindset , Let not inquity be once named among you . The early church did , And we will too .
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Post by frienduff on Aug 16, 2019 15:57:15 GMT -5
Butero is making some good points. Those who believe in OSAS are singling out some scriptures while ignoring or twisting others to try and make them fit their belief. One things I would like to say about God's righteousness being imputed to us....we still do need His imputed righteousness after coming to faith. There is a matter of sins committed in ignorance, as well as iniquity in the heart/soul that believers may not yet be aware of to be able to repent of those things and be healed....so while I agree the sins of the past are forgiven, there are sins/iniquities present that God graciously chooses to not count against us while we work out our salvation. There is a reason why we have judges and not just written laws than anybody can look up and decide accordingly....that is so the judge can hear all the facts and exercise their discretion/judgment and not just decide solely by the unmerciful letter of the law. Eg, there was a time when a man would be sentenced to hard labour for life for poaching a rabbit to feed his starving family...and by the letter of the law this was right.....but seeing through a lens of grace and mercy there would be more leniency. God is our judge and only He knows all the facts of each individual case and how far He is willing to let a matter go, or whether He will either overlook a thing or drop the hammer. It's why if we judge ourselves we will not be judged with the world...when we judge ourselves it means that with the mind we are serving Him and hating our faults and that He is willing to count that it is no longer we who sin but sin living in us, while we endeavour in sincerity to deal with whatever the problem is we are facing. The Lord has mercy on us in our predicaments and it certainly is good news for us that He is longsuffering....but if we were to take that for granted or abuse it then expect it to end sooner rather than later for neither is God mocked. You make a lot of good points. We would be in trouble if we were cast away for things we had no idea were sin. There are many cases where something is obvious. Nobody should have to tell you stealing, adultery or murder is sin, but there are things we may do and genuinely have no idea about, like horoscopes. Many people follow them faithfully, become a Christian, and have no idea that is a sin because nobody preaches about things like that. I don't believe God is going to cast someone away for those kind of things before they come to knowledge. In cases like that, I do believe grace comes in.
I used to see nothing wrong with horoscopes at all . But then day one grace appeared , and I never looked in that direction again . There was too much of a total new direction pulling me from that which was contrary . OH there may be hidden faults that will come to the surface , and when they do , we know the drilll its repent and cease . The motto LET all who name the name of Christ depart from inquity shall never once cease from our lips . And our approach must never wane . Now on that note , how bout some hands fly up and let the LORD be praised .
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Post by frienduff on Aug 16, 2019 16:01:04 GMT -5
You right . AWAKE TO RIGHTEOUSNESS and SIN NOT . Thanks for the reminder . Let not these things be once named among you as becometh saints . John and all , you know what I so love about the scriptures also , the fact that when any ones thinker gets to overthinking and they get to perhaps down playing things THOSE SCRIPS always bring such a good sharpness . Cause we gotta face it , men got thinkers and they don't always think quite so clearly , but the WORD OF GOD , now that puts it all back into perspective again . Now , how bout some hands fly up and some praises fly out , UNTO THE LORD .
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Post by frienduff on Aug 16, 2019 16:04:22 GMT -5
Ol frienduff sees one road , and always their are two points to it , one side says death the other says JESUS . And the middle of the road that is just death disguised as life .
The words in the bible shall be my food and from that feast may I never cease . Now hands up , me thinks , no , me KNOWS its time to praise the LORD .
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