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Post by discipler777 on Jan 21, 2019 2:06:05 GMT -5
I’ve made my case to oppose this teaching. I don’t have the bandwidth to keep going in circles. People who want to believe it will believe it. If other members here feel led to keep going, more power to you. . How come you do not have enough bandwidth.? Can't you get an unlimited data plan or one with a large data cap(eg 30GB per month).? Can't you get public Wifi at nearby stores.? . It's good for us to wash each other's feet. ....... . JOHN.13:7-17 (NKJV) = 7 Jesus answered and said to him, “What I am doing you do not understand now, but you will know after this.”
8 Peter said to Him, “You shall never wash my feet!”
Jesus answered him, “If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me.”
9 Simon Peter said to Him, “Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head!”
10 Jesus said to him, “He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.” 11 For He knew who would betray Him; therefore He said, “You are not all clean.”
12 So when He had washed their feet, taken His garments, and sat down again, He said to them, “Do you know what I have done to you? 13 You call Me Teacher and Lord, and you say well, for so I am. 14 If I then, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another’s feet. 15 For I have given you an example, that you should do as I have done to you. 16 Most assuredly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master; nor is he who is sent greater than he who sent him. 17 If you know these things, blessed are you if you do them.
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Post by discipler777 on Jan 21, 2019 2:52:30 GMT -5
@discipler777, there are elements of truth in what you are saying, but they are mixed with a lot of error. Many of the Jews were looking for their Messiah to overthrow the Roman government. Still, there was a lot more going on than that. Some knew Jesus was the Son of God, but rejected Him because their positions were threatened. Some were envious. Some were spiritually blind. Without trusting in Jesus, none were clean. The only reason animal sacrifices were of any value, was it was a bridge to the cross. To reject Jesus was a sin, and also meant all previous sins remained.
Let's suppose I am sharing the gospel with 4 sinners. Two are gentiles and two are Jewish. They all have sin stains. On God's books, it looks like this:
1. PERSON A: 104,235 sins 2. PERSON B: 259,475 sins 3. PERSON C: 117,988 sins 4. PERSON D: 57,511 sins
The first two are Jews, the last two are gentiles. A single sin will keep you out of heaven, so all are going to hell. Of those 4, Person C accepts Jesus, the others do not. What happens to their sin count? A, B and D added to theirs by rejecting Jesus, and the numbers keep rising. What about C? His sin debt was paid for, so he has no sin debt, and it remains at zero unless He returns to commit willful sins. Among the sinners, it matters not who has the most sins. They are all hell bound. Being Abraham's seed doesn't mean anything. Something else happens. The two Jews have been cut off from Israel, and they are in the same position as the unbelieving gentile, but the saved gentile is now part of spiritual Israel through adoption. Sinners are sinners and are all unclean and are all going to hell. God is not a respecter of persons.
. Your conjectures do not explain the huge Zionism movement in Europe during WW2 which led to the formation of Israel in 1948-49. Even after about 1900 years since the destruction of Jerusalem and the Holy Temple in 70AD, the stubborn Jews did not give up their hope of regaining their kingdom of earth(= Israel/Judah) from foreign rulers/kings. Zionism is still strong among the diaspora Jews, eg among US Jews, since Israel is being surrounded by their sworn enemies = hateful Muslim nations as neighbors. .
About sins, we should differentiate or discriminate between involuntarily inherited Adam's Original Sin(ROMANS.5:12), voluntary unintentionally committed sins and voluntary intentionally/willfully committed sins. People cannot do anything about their involuntary evil/sinful/satanic thoughts that occasionally arise in their hearts and minds but they can do something about the voluntary unintentional or intentional sins. ....... Voluntarily committed sins have consequences, ie curses/judgment from God. Unintentional sins can be forgiven and the curses removed or passed-over by God, eg through the blood of Jesus. Intentional sins can also be forgiven by God but seldom, eg miraculous healing and exorcism by Jesus Christ. ....... For Christians who have been saved from their sins, they need to walk in the Spirit and not walk in the flesh. Those who choose to reject the HOLY Spirit/Word of God and remain walking in the flesh, eg by continuing to sin willfully/intentionally and unrepentantly will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Today, in USA or UK, do you think the sin of sexual immorality is more common among the mostly Lawless Gentiles or among the mostly Law-abiding orthodox Jews.? . . As I said before, mature Christians should leave behind the elementary principles of Christ about how both Jews and Gentiles need to believe in Jesus Christ in order to be saved from hell, and not be saved by keeping the Law = Jews who have avoided committing intentional sins like murder, adultery, bullying, blasphemy, stealing, etc, will still be not saved because they still have involuntarily inherited Adam's Original Sin in their hearts, eg have harbored immoral/evil/sinful/satanic lust, hate, anger, greed, selfishness, jealousy, fears/worries, doubts, etc in their hearts. . Peace.
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Cletus
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Post by Cletus on Jan 21, 2019 5:20:48 GMT -5
. Who do you think Jesus Christ was referring to as dogs and swine.? ...............................................................................................................................................
I think the reference to a dog is not just a predator with teeth that will use them but this also...Pro 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Jan 21, 2019 7:32:23 GMT -5
Jews who have avoided committing intentional sins like murder, adultery, bullying, blasphemy, stealing, etc, will still be not saved because... Because they cannot stop loving these things while they are not born again:
"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins;
for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins." - John 8:24
Jews without Christ are just as wicked as the common gentiles. Both are slave to sin and cannot stop loving to sin.
"...walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of
the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience..." - Ephesians 2:2
Jews without Christ and yet think they are righteous are just hypocrites who think they are righteous enough...
"...Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin...
...Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed." - John 8:34+36
"Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed
remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God." - 1 John 3:9
"He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning.
For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil." - 1 John 3:8
"to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God,
that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me." - Acts 26:18
"For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law." - Galatians 3:21
Blessings in Jesus' name!
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Post by John on Jan 21, 2019 9:52:11 GMT -5
When Jesus said not to cast pearls before swine, he meant unbelievers, not gentiles. He was speaking of the Scribes and Pharisees as much as anyone.
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Post by John on Jan 21, 2019 10:07:48 GMT -5
@discipler777, there are elements of truth in what you are saying, but they are mixed with a lot of error. Many of the Jews were looking for their Messiah to overthrow the Roman government. Still, there was a lot more going on than that. Some knew Jesus was the Son of God, but rejected Him because their positions were threatened. Some were envious. Some were spiritually blind. Without trusting in Jesus, none were clean. The only reason animal sacrifices were of any value, was it was a bridge to the cross. To reject Jesus was a sin, and also meant all previous sins remained.
Let's suppose I am sharing the gospel with 4 sinners. Two are gentiles and two are Jewish. They all have sin stains. On God's books, it looks like this:
1. PERSON A: 104,235 sins 2. PERSON B: 259,475 sins 3. PERSON C: 117,988 sins 4. PERSON D: 57,511 sins
The first two are Jews, the last two are gentiles. A single sin will keep you out of heaven, so all are going to hell. Of those 4, Person C accepts Jesus, the others do not. What happens to their sin count? A, B and D added to theirs by rejecting Jesus, and the numbers keep rising. What about C? His sin debt was paid for, so he has no sin debt, and it remains at zero unless He returns to commit willful sins. Among the sinners, it matters not who has the most sins. They are all hell bound. Being Abraham's seed doesn't mean anything. Something else happens. The two Jews have been cut off from Israel, and they are in the same position as the unbelieving gentile, but the saved gentile is now part of spiritual Israel through adoption. Sinners are sinners and are all unclean and are all going to hell. God is not a respecter of persons.
. Your conjectures do not explain the huge Zionism movement in Europe during WW2 which led to the formation of Israel in 1948-49. Even after about 1900 years since the destruction of Jerusalem and the Holy Temple in 70AD, the stubborn Jews did not give up their hope of regaining their kingdom of earth(= Israel/Judah) from foreign rulers/kings. Zionism is still strong among the diaspora Jews, eg among US Jews, since Israel is being surrounded by their sworn enemies = hateful Muslim nations as neighbors. .
About sins, we should differentiate or discriminate between involuntarily inherited Adam's Original Sin(ROMANS.5:12), voluntary unintentionally committed sins and voluntary intentionally/willfully committed sins. People cannot do anything about their involuntary evil/sinful/satanic thoughts that occasionally arise in their hearts and minds but they can do something about the voluntary unintentional or intentional sins. ....... Voluntarily committed sins have consequences, ie curses/judgment from God. Unintentional sins can be forgiven and the curses removed or passed-over by God, eg through the blood of Jesus. Intentional sins can also be forgiven by God but seldom, eg miraculous healing and exorcism by Jesus Christ. ....... For Christians who have been saved from their sins, they need to walk in the Spirit and not walk in the flesh. Those who choose to reject the HOLY Spirit/Word of God and remain walking in the flesh, eg by continuing to sin willfully/intentionally and unrepentantly will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Today, in USA or UK, do you think the sin of sexual immorality is more common among the mostly Lawless Gentiles or among the mostly Law-abiding orthodox Jews.? . . As I said before, mature Christians should leave behind the elementary principles of Christ about how both Jews and Gentiles need to believe in Jesus Christ in order to be saved from hell, and not be saved by keeping the Law = Jews who have avoided committing intentional sins like murder, adultery, bullying, blasphemy, stealing, etc, will still be not saved because they still have involuntarily inherited Adam's Original Sin in their hearts, eg have harbored immoral/evil/sinful/satanic lust, hate, anger, greed, selfishness, jealousy, fears/worries, doubts, etc in their hearts. . Peace.
What you said is flawed because you are comparing orthodox Jews with unbelieving gentiles. There are many secular and sinful Jews, as there are evangelical Christians that live right.
As for Zionism, the Jews just want the land back that God promised to Abraham through Isaac.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Jan 21, 2019 10:39:20 GMT -5
The fundamental question is whether a strong moral compass you are taught through human/social means is of any benefit in God’s eyes. Regardless of whether it will give you everlasting life, does it make you a better person here and now? Is a toxic baby Christian inferior to a well-adusted unbeliever?
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Post by John on Jan 21, 2019 11:09:29 GMT -5
The fundamental question is whether a strong moral compass you are taught through human/social means is of any benefit in God’s eyes. Regardless of whether it will give you everlasting life, does it make you a better person here and now? Is a toxic baby Christian inferior to a well-adusted unbeliever? Since we know we can't save ourselves by being a good person compared to others, we know simply having a good moral compass doesn't impress God. Your other question is harder to answer. Is a toxic baby Christian better or worse than a well adjusted sinner in this life? I would imagine it would depend on who you ask. You would hope the toxic Christian would gradually learn the ways of God and improve over time and I would prefer them, I think, but it depends in what way they are toxic. There are times where I have found the company of a well adjusted sinner better than a toxic Christian. That is a real good question.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Jan 21, 2019 11:27:09 GMT -5
The fundamental question is whether a strong moral compass you are taught through human/social means is of any benefit in God’s eyes. Regardless of whether it will give you everlasting life, does it make you a better person here and now? Is a toxic baby Christian inferior to a well-adusted unbeliever? Since we know we can't save ourselves by being a good person compared to others, we know simply having a good moral compass doesn't impress God. Your other question is harder to answer. Is a toxic baby Christian better or worse than a well adjusted sinner in this life? I would imagine it would depend on who you ask. You would hope the toxic Christian would gradually learn the ways of God and improve over time and I would prefer them, I think, but it depends in what way they are toxic. There are times where I have found the company of a well adjusted sinner better than a toxic Christian. That is a real good question.
Do they “learn God’s ways” by reading the OT and humanly striving to do what it says? Or do they surrender to the prompting of the Holy Spirit in their heart to tell them what to do? This is the difference between Paul’s message and Peter’s early misguided message. It remains the biggest gap between Jews and Gentiles in the body of Christ. Option A: Spiritually believe that Jesus is Messiah, humanly strive to please Him with good moral values, and thus be found righteous. Option B: All things in the new covenant are spiritual, even moral standards. We must allow the Holy Spirit to stir in our hearts a spiritual understanding of goodness, which is the only kind that produces spiritual fruits, and is the only kind pleasing unto God. By all means, we encourage baby Christians to mature, but it’s a false maturity to send them after human works of righteousness. Treasures in heaven. It’s not just about money.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Jan 21, 2019 11:57:28 GMT -5
You can be someone who has excellent social skills because you studied psychology and took some etiquette classes. Using these skills, you can impress a lot of people. You can even do a lot of good in your career/community with these skills. But you’ve never seen a need to bring that part of your life to the cross. You’ve never crucified it. You think you have it handled and you know what you’re doing, so you see no need for sanctification in that arena. You don’t have the Holy Spirit actually moving in that way for you.
We must crucify all of ourselves, the good and the bad. We must crucify everything we claim for ourselves. The NT doesn’t say to only take up a cross for your failings. We crucify, sanctify, and re-assess all of our fleshly abilities. Not by works lest any man should boast. No flesh will stand before God, not even the well-adjusted parts.
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Post by John on Jan 21, 2019 12:16:31 GMT -5
Since we know we can't save ourselves by being a good person compared to others, we know simply having a good moral compass doesn't impress God. Your other question is harder to answer. Is a toxic baby Christian better or worse than a well adjusted sinner in this life? I would imagine it would depend on who you ask. You would hope the toxic Christian would gradually learn the ways of God and improve over time and I would prefer them, I think, but it depends in what way they are toxic. There are times where I have found the company of a well adjusted sinner better than a toxic Christian. That is a real good question.
Do they “learn God’s ways” by reading the OT and humanly striving to do what it says? Or do they surrender to the prompting of the Holy Spirit in their heart to tell them what to do? This is the difference between Paul’s message and Peter’s early misguided message. It remains the biggest gap between Jews and Gentiles in the body of Christ. Option A: Spiritually believe that Jesus is Messiah, humanly strive to please Him with good moral values, and thus be found righteous. Option B: All things in the new covenant are spiritual, even moral standards. We must allow the Holy Spirit to stir in our hearts a spiritual understanding of goodness, which is the only kind that produces spiritual fruits, and is the only kind pleasing unto God. By all means, we encourage baby Christians to mature, but it’s a false maturity to send them after human works of righteousness. Treasures in heaven. It’s not just about money. Are you talking about Peter's message, or when he started to shy away from eating with the gentiles out of fear of persecution from the Jews?
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Post by John on Jan 21, 2019 12:22:01 GMT -5
You can be someone who has excellent social skills because you studied psychology and took some etiquette classes. Using these skills, you can impress a lot of people. You can even do a lot of good in your career/community with these skills. But you’ve never seen a need to bring that part of your life to the cross. You’ve never crucified it. You think you have it handled and you know what you’re doing, so you see no need for sanctification in that arena. You don’t have the Holy Spirit actually moving in that way for you. We must crucify all of ourselves, the good and the bad. We must crucify everything we claim for ourselves. The NT doesn’t say to only take up a cross for your failings. We crucify, sanctify, and re-assess all of our fleshly abilities. Not by works lest any man should boast. No flesh will stand before God, not even the well-adjusted parts. I am not sure how you would crucify the good? A person must be willing to consider that some things they perceived within themselves as good are not good by God's standards, but that isn't he same as crucifying the good. I don't think that to simply be aware you are doing the right thing in certain areas and continuing to do that gives you any reason to boast in self, given all the areas we all fall short. Doing the right thing because the Bible says to do something to me is to take up your cross and follow Jesus, as he told us the way we should walk in scripture.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Jan 21, 2019 12:57:36 GMT -5
You can be someone who has excellent social skills because you studied psychology and took some etiquette classes. Using these skills, you can impress a lot of people. You can even do a lot of good in your career/community with these skills. But you’ve never seen a need to bring that part of your life to the cross. You’ve never crucified it. You think you have it handled and you know what you’re doing, so you see no need for sanctification in that arena. You don’t have the Holy Spirit actually moving in that way for you. We must crucify all of ourselves, the good and the bad. We must crucify everything we claim for ourselves. The NT doesn’t say to only take up a cross for your failings. We crucify, sanctify, and re-assess all of our fleshly abilities. Not by works lest any man should boast. No flesh will stand before God, not even the well-adjusted parts. I am not sure how you would crucify the good? A person must be willing to consider that some things they perceived within themselves as good are not good by God's standards, but that isn't he same as crucifying the good. I don't think that to simply be aware you are doing the right thing in certain areas and continuing to do that gives you any reason to boast in self, given all the areas we all fall short. Doing the right thing because the Bible says to do something to me is to take up your cross and follow Jesus, as he told us the way we should walk in scripture.
Let’s revisit what Paul told Phillipi: For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith — Philippians 3:3-9He didn’t use “flesh” here in terms of sinful deeds. He was talking about humanistic methods of being good. Consider my scenario about a new convert who comes to Jesus with effective social skills. Here’s how most new Christians handle it: Thank You for saving me, Jesus. Now that I’m in your camp, check out these amazing social skills I learned from human psychology tactics. What an asset they will be to Your kingdom! Why, I’m practically doing You a favor! No, no, I don’t need the Holy Spirit to transform me here, I got this. Here’s how the NT tells us to handle it: Lord, I come to You as a little child who doesn’t presume to have anything You need. I want to be completely conformed to Your ways and completely dependent on the Holy Spirit prompting. Lord, You see that I have these social skills I’ve been using to influence people. Let this not be an idol in my life. Let me not use it a crutch in place of Your instruction. Lord, I lay this at Your feet, and I begin with a clean slate. If there be any usefulness in these skills, I ask YOU to tell me the parts that are worth keeping, and YOU to use these skills as a tool under Holy Spirit prompting. Those are very different approaches. This dangerous idea that law-abiding Jews enter the church as ready-made spiritual adults is a direct reflection of this. Yes, we strive to obey Him and do good works — but we don’t rely on the world to give us good behavioral skills which we then trot into the church. It doesn’t work that way.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Jan 21, 2019 13:05:27 GMT -5
Do they “learn God’s ways” by reading the OT and humanly striving to do what it says? Or do they surrender to the prompting of the Holy Spirit in their heart to tell them what to do? This is the difference between Paul’s message and Peter’s early misguided message. It remains the biggest gap between Jews and Gentiles in the body of Christ. Option A: Spiritually believe that Jesus is Messiah, humanly strive to please Him with good moral values, and thus be found righteous. Option B: All things in the new covenant are spiritual, even moral standards. We must allow the Holy Spirit to stir in our hearts a spiritual understanding of goodness, which is the only kind that produces spiritual fruits, and is the only kind pleasing unto God. By all means, we encourage baby Christians to mature, but it’s a false maturity to send them after human works of righteousness. Treasures in heaven. It’s not just about money. Are you talking about Peter's message, or when he started to shy away from eating with the gentiles out of fear of persecution from the Jews?
I’m talking about Peter’s attitude toward Gentiles when he first started.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Jan 21, 2019 13:14:50 GMT -5
This is where the hyper-grace “faith plus nothing” crowd gets it wrong. When they see “not by works lest any man should boast” they misunderstand it. Boastful works are not a matter of growing good fruit on the vine. We all must grow fruit to remain on the vine. Boastful works are when we rely on fleshly/humanistic behaviors to replace a conviction of the heart.
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