PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Jan 16, 2019 15:40:12 GMT -5
What’s really ironic, when this whole thing goes full circle and we are back to a global religious system where it’s their way or the highway, this quote from Wesley will probably spin back into the battle cry of the opposition, and the inclusion folks who are preaching at now will turn against it.
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Post by John on Jan 16, 2019 16:10:44 GMT -5
What’s really ironic, when this whole thing goes full circle and we are back to a global religious system where it’s their way or the highway, this quote from Wesley will probably spin back into the battle cry of the opposition, and the inclusion folks who are preaching at now will turn against it. In many ways, we are more tolerant than the "all inclusive," all about love folks. By the grace of God, we have kicked nobody out, even though our beliefs are more defined than most. We stand on scripture without apologies, and must at times edit or remove posts, but we are not thought police in the sense of demanding people believe like us or else. We will protect the sheep by removing posts in violation of the SOF, but our objective is to welcome the sheep, not throw them to the wolves. The so-called all-inclusive side isn't that way towards true evangelical Christians. They are all inclusive towards those who promote love and acceptance of cults like the RCC, and those who promote sin without possible loss of salvation. They don't accept those who are about following the Bible without compromise. Those are legalists to them.
Politics is the same way. The loving, cares for everyone crowd is only that way towards the dregs of society, not Christians and conservatives. We are more tolerant of them.
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Post by frienduff on Jan 16, 2019 16:47:39 GMT -5
It's not entirely clear where this saying had its origin. There are a few theories. However, it came to be a heavily used concept in some protestant circles in the 18th century. In the 15th century, a reformer named Jan Hus started criticizing the RCC and started laying the foundation for the protestant reformation. He was burned at the stake for his efforts. This was in the modern day location of the Czech republic. This started a movement away from the RCC that started to spread. Centuries later in the early 1700s, a group of Christians fleeing Catholic persecution from this region of Moravia fled to Germany and were given safe haven by Count Zinzendorf where they founded the town of Herrnhut. This was a place where Christians fleeing persecution from a variety of places started to flee to. There were Christians who spoke different languages, came from different protestant sects, and had a wide range of outlooks on things. Before long, differences and doctrinal schisms reached the point that threatened to tear this community apart. They had reached the point where a few leaders were arguing that the other was the antichrist. In this safe haven from the RCC and other persecution, they seriously started praying and seeking God for what He wanted to do there. God brought a peace, unity, and sense of purpose. It is out of that turmoil and reconciliation that a saying such as "in essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty, and in all things love" came to be used. This small community in Herrnhut ended up having an impact on the protestant reformation. They were among the first missionaries in many parts of the world. They started a 24/7 prayer meeting that went over a century. They influenced many other protestants. It was on a rough sea voyage to America where in the midst of a storm a terrified John Wesley noted the Moravians calmly singing and praying with a peace and assurance he hadn't known. Many directly attribute Wesley's conversion to them. After his conversion, Wesley spent some time with the Moravians and was influenced by their way of life. A web search for terms such as Jan Hus, Moravians, Herrnhut, Zinzendorf, Moravian missionaries, and the like will yield a number of links on this topic. At some point, each of us needs to decide which Christian beliefs and practices are essential and non-negotiable and which are not. Put yourself in a situation where you and a small number of Christians are holed up in a cave in a mountain fleeing from persecution. What doctrinal disagreement would be serious enough that you would walk out and leave over? What disagreement would be serious enough that you would kick someone out over? This is not about getting out of the RCC or a one world church. The Christians in Herrnhut were there because they had remained true to Christ and had fled and left their homelands. This is about what disagreements with someone you hold to be a fellow believer would you walk out and leave over and which disagreements you should gracefully agree to disagree over. Those Christians in Herrnhut decided that having a life free to serve Christ and being able to live day in and day out in clear conscience with one another was worth more than winning most of the arguments that had been previously tearing that community apart. We already know meats drinks and days . Scenarios are what the unity ones will use real big . I think I know who our guest is . You are loved my brother . But , we seriously need to stay on guard . When whatever time or scenario should arise , GOD will give me or any of us the right approach. TILL then let none of us entertain scenarios . This is how this wrong unity has taken such a power hold . Believe me if anyone who knows the Lord is in any error , when they are told the truth , like king david , they will repent . I never entertain scenarios . God will give me whatever words for whatever situation should arise . WE cannot focus on a unity that was not the unity THE apostels held . And they were sure to say , if any heeds not even their epistle , not to even eat with such . NOW this was not done so the one in error would just be hated . NO it was done for their good and for the good of the rest of the church . This unity will come at us with tons of truth at first , but we have to remember , paul was adamant about if brothers or sisters are in error , CORRECT asap . Any unity that starts to put the fellowship of man , ABOVE GOD , Is a dead end unity . but its very clever . I SEEN it at work . MY Goodness I have seen it at work . And it starts with lots of truths , but always in a wrong focus . Anyone who knows me , KNOWS I desire none to perish , and that GOD must be put first in EVERYTHING . THEY know I aint in it to be mean or cruel. OR because I hate people . But we must Be on heavy guard . I watched Kenneth copleland sell his approach. AND HE is easy to spot . He too said , divison is not of GOD that GOD don't want races divided , or etc . BUT as much as this is true , HE was using that as a crutch to promote the wrong unity . Others are far more clever than Copeland . FAR MORE . I don't warn or rebuke cause I hate anyone . ITs out of love I warn . AND JESUS will be first and foremost . I think I know who our guest is . And you are welcome here any time . But be on guard and lets leave scenarios alone . GOD will give me or any one of us the words for any situation . I HONESTLY believe that as a child . SO lets focus on SOUND doctrine , LETS focus on Christ above even mother , father , wife , child etc . IF we do , we will have the right unity automatically .
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Post by frienduff on Jan 16, 2019 16:55:27 GMT -5
Let’s remember that Wesley taught this at a different time in history when pethaps it was necessary. Remember his Methodist movement was outlawed by the church of England simply because he was catering to poor people. There was discrimination in the church back then which we don’t have now. It’s a shame that modern people are hijacking his quote for a different agenda. It’s also a shame that they hijack the word love, so now we can’t teach on love. We can’t teach on peace or fellowship or kindness or charity without having to walk on eggshells. Those are excellent points. Also, the Methodist Church of today doesn't remotely resemble the "shouting Methodists" of the past. It used to be a good church.
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Post by frienduff on Jan 16, 2019 17:02:01 GMT -5
How quickly we have forgotten that there was a time when being the wrong denomination – – or having a Bible in English – – was enough to send you to prison. Yeah. well be prepared because that TIME is coming full force right at us . ONLY denomiations wont be the problem . heck you can be a muslim , or buddits , or whatever denomination of Christian or hindu or atheist , and all WILL BE WELL . ITS those who wont conform to the all inclusive unity false love peace fest, THOSE will be rounded up and killed . Because every faith , every religion and even seclular , WILL agree in time on this concept . IT WILL be ONLY the true lambs who resisted and conformed NOT TO IT . Weep if you want , cry aloud if you need too . BUT I had rather be dead than conform to a false unity that puts mankind first . DEAD . as in I mean dead like killed dead . I done decided , I did count the cost . the longer this goes on , I KNOW the cost , and praise GOD if it costs me all and even my life , JESUS WILL BE PUT FIRST ABOVE ALL THINGS . whether I be hated , persecuted , or even killed . My minds fully made up . And my HOPE and my peace and my Joy only abounds .
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Post by discipler777 on Jan 17, 2019 2:02:10 GMT -5
What’s really ironic, when this whole thing goes full circle and we are back to a global religious system where it’s their way or the highway, this quote from Wesley will probably spin back into the battle cry of the opposition, and the inclusion folks who are preaching at now will turn against it. In many ways, we are more tolerant than the "all inclusive," all about love folks. By the grace of God, we have kicked nobody out, even though our beliefs are more defined than most. We stand on scripture without apologies, and must at times edit or remove posts, but we are not thought police in the sense of demanding people believe like us or else. We will protect the sheep by removing posts in violation of the SOF, but our objective is to welcome the sheep, not throw them to the wolves. The so-called all-inclusive side isn't that way towards true evangelical Christians. They are all inclusive towards those who promote love and acceptance of cults like the RCC, and those who promote sin without possible loss of salvation. They don't accept those who are about following the Bible without compromise. Those are legalists to them.
Politics is the same way. The loving, cares for everyone crowd is only that way towards the dregs of society, not Christians and conservatives. We are more tolerant of them.
. To add to your good post, we need to understand that the Lord/God Jesus Christ commanded His disciples to love the brethren/sisthren/neighbors as themselves, and not to indiscriminately love every Tom, Dikk and Harry, especially not their sworn enemies, eg Islamist terrorists. It would be the height of foolishness for US Christian missionaries to go into regions infested with Islamist terrorists, eg Syria, Somalia, Nigeria, etc.(MATTHEW.10:16)
To me, the quote, "In Essentials Unity, In Non-Essentials Liberty, ..." is very much related to how God liberated the Gentile Christians from His non-essential or burdensome laws at ACTS.15:19-29. This liberty from the Law was further elaborated by Paul at GAL.5:1-13 and ROMANS.14:1-4.
The Church Universalism movement is different from above, in that it promotes a Universal or United God from the different religions, like the United States of America. But in truth, the Christians' God and Lord/Master is Jesus Christ, as per JOHN.20:28 and MATTHEW.28:9 & 17. When Jesus Christ comes back to earth for the 2nd time, Church Universalism will be smashed into smithereens.
Peace.
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Post by John on Jan 17, 2019 6:57:07 GMT -5
In many ways, we are more tolerant than the "all inclusive," all about love folks. By the grace of God, we have kicked nobody out, even though our beliefs are more defined than most. We stand on scripture without apologies, and must at times edit or remove posts, but we are not thought police in the sense of demanding people believe like us or else. We will protect the sheep by removing posts in violation of the SOF, but our objective is to welcome the sheep, not throw them to the wolves. The so-called all-inclusive side isn't that way towards true evangelical Christians. They are all inclusive towards those who promote love and acceptance of cults like the RCC, and those who promote sin without possible loss of salvation. They don't accept those who are about following the Bible without compromise. Those are legalists to them.
Politics is the same way. The loving, cares for everyone crowd is only that way towards the dregs of society, not Christians and conservatives. We are more tolerant of them.
. To add to your good post, we need to understand that the Lord/God Jesus Christ commanded His disciples to love the brethren/sisthren/neighbors as themselves, and not to indiscriminately love every Tom, Dikk and Harry, especially not their sworn enemies, eg Islamist terrorists. It would be the height of foolishness for US Christian missionaries to go into regions infested with Islamist terrorists, eg Syria, Somalia, Nigeria, etc.(MATTHEW.10:16)
To me, the quote, "In Essentials Unity, In Non-Essentials Liberty, ..." is very much related to how God liberated the Gentile Christians from His non-essential or burdensome laws at ACTS.15:19-29. This liberty from the Law was further elaborated by Paul at GAL.5:1-13 and ROMANS.14:1-4.
The Church Universalism movement is different from above, in that it promotes a Universal or United God from the different religions, like the United States of America. But in truth, the Christians' God and Lord/Master is Jesus Christ, as per JOHN.20:28 and MATTHEW.28:9 & 17. When Jesus Christ comes back to earth for the 2nd time, Church Universalism will be smashed into smithereens.
Peace. I do not believe Gentile Christians are different from Jewish Christians. A Christian is a Christian. There are not two bodies with two sets of standards.
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PG4Him
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Posts: 3,570
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Post by PG4Him on Jan 17, 2019 10:26:09 GMT -5
Uh...
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. — Matthew 5:44-48
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Post by frienduff on Jan 17, 2019 11:53:28 GMT -5
Desipler is right about the universalism . God gonna smash that unified mindset and all who were of it ON HIS Day. But we are to love our enemies . We don't hang out being unequally yoked . But we witness to all and those who hear amen and those who reject , well Jesus said shake the dust off and move on .
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Post by Giller on Jan 17, 2019 13:35:11 GMT -5
In essentials, unity. In non-essentials, liberty. In all things, charity.
Of course it is the gospel it self that unites.
And their are weightier matters than others:
Mat 23:23 (23) Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Now there is no were that I see that God says of any of his ways that they are non essential.
Now yes we all have our own consciense, we all have a free will, and yes there are issues such as people believing to only eat herbs and so forth.
Now people may be free to choose to obey certain of these things to a certain point, which the bible says this:
Rom 14:3 (3) Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
The weak believer is free to obey this thing of eating herbs, as long as they do not judge him that eateth meat, and of course it says for the believer that eateth, not to despise the one that eateth not.
All things must be done in love.
Now I do not believe that we should disfellowship each other for just any little reason, because that is also not biblical, but there are issues that can come along that does require this, which must be serious.
Now true liberty is in Christ, and we have to be careful in what we say about this part of the word, or that part of the word.
I do not see were God gives an exception to what part of the word we choose to take seriously or not.
In God's eyes his whole word is important, just some things are of weightier matter than others, but nevertheless important.
I think the issue is more on knowing how to walk in the love of God, and rightly knowing how to appropriate God's word, at different times.
And yes being patient one toward another, knowing that each member is at a differnet growth place in the Lord.
But never compromising the word, which Frienduff gives a lot of good warnings.
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Post by discipler777 on Jan 18, 2019 2:00:16 GMT -5
Uh... But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. — Matthew 5:44-48 . MATTHEW.5:27-30 (NKJV) = Adultery in the Heart 27 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. . If you aim to be saved from hell without believing in Jesus as the Messiah/Christ/Saviour, then you will need to also pluck out your eyes and cut off your limbs, turn the other cheek, walk the extra mile and lend to all who ask, besides foolishly loving your enemies as yourself.(cf; ROMANS.12:19-21 & 9:13, PROV.6:16, HOSEA.9:15)
This was the challenge and conviction proposed by Jesus Christ to the Jews and Pharisees who went on to reject Him as the Christ. IOW, those who really go and pluck out their eyes and cut off their limbs(= cannot commit adultery in their hearts), and obey the above foolish acts/"commandments" will be saved from hell without Jesus Christ.
Peace.
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Post by John on Jan 18, 2019 8:46:11 GMT -5
Uh... But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. — Matthew 5:44-48 . MATTHEW.5:27-30 (NKJV) = Adultery in the Heart 27 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. . If you aim to be saved from hell without believing in Jesus as the Messiah/Christ/Saviour, then you will need to also pluck out your eyes and cut off your limbs, turn the other cheek, walk the extra mile and lend to all who ask, besides foolishly loving your enemies as yourself.(cf; ROMANS.12:19-21 & 9:13, PROV.6:16, HOSEA.9:15)
This was the challenge and conviction proposed by Jesus Christ to the Jews and Pharisees who went on to reject Him as the Christ. IOW, those who really go and pluck out their eyes and cut off their limbs(= cannot commit adultery in their hearts), and obey the above foolish acts/"commandments" will be saved from hell without Jesus Christ.
Peace.
Actually, Jesus wasn't telling people that they had to pluck out their eyes or cut off their limbs to be saved without him. Nobody can be saved without him, because of original sin. What he was saying is if you cannot control your lust, hell is such an awful place, you would be better off to pluck out your eye than to wind up there. The same applies to your limbs. He was trying to get the point across of the horrors of hell. His teachings were not to show that we cannot keep them. He was showing us the right way, and we should strive to follow his teachings. A wise man will try their best to do as our Lord commands us. That doesn't mean we will never fail, but if we do, we confess our short comings and strive to do better. I want to ask you a question. Have you been born again? Can you tell us the story of how you became a Christian?
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Post by 2fw8212a on Jan 18, 2019 9:04:27 GMT -5
He was showing us the right way, and we should strive to follow his teachings. A wise man will try their best to do as our Lord commands us. It is indeed impossible to follow Jesus commandments if you do not love Him.
"He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father..." - John 14:21
Because it is far easier to disregard all the good things he said and just live as you please.
"If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me..." - Matthew 16:24
But the commandments of the Lord is for our own good and there is joy while following them (if you love Him).
"But I say to you who hear: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you..." - Luke 6:27
There are many warnings in the New Testament for seeking a holier life and to walk in truth.
Throwing everything Jesus said out and not seeking to fulfill (by faith) what He has said to us is actually a foolish act.
"But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?..." - Luke 6:46
"He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked." - 1 John 2:6
"For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world — our faith." - 1 John 5:4
"Awake to righteousness, and do not sin; for some do not have the knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame." - 1 Corinthians 15:34
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Post by frienduff on Jan 18, 2019 10:41:20 GMT -5
In essentials, unity. In non-essentials, liberty. In all things, charity.
Of course it is the gospel it self that unites.
And their are weightier matters than others:
Mat 23:23 (23) Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Now there is no were that I see that God says of any of his ways that they are non essential.
Now yes we all have our own consciense, we all have a free will, and yes there are issues such as people believing to only eat herbs and so forth.
Now people may be free to choose to obey certain of these things to a certain point, which the bible says this:
Rom 14:3 (3) Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
The weak believer is free to obey this thing of eating herbs, as long as they do not judge him that eateth meat, and of course it says for the believer that eateth, not to despise the one that eateth not.
All things must be done in love.
Now I do not believe that we should disfellowship each other for just any little reason, because that is also not biblical, but there are issues that can come along that does require this, which must be serious.
Now true liberty is in Christ, and we have to be careful in what we say about this part of the word, or that part of the word.
I do not see were God gives an exception to what part of the word we choose to take seriously or not.
In God's eyes his whole word is important, just some things are of weightier matter than others, but nevertheless important.
I think the issue is more on knowing how to walk in the love of God, and rightly knowing how to appropriate God's word, at different times.
And yes being patient one toward another, knowing that each member is at a differnet growth place in the Lord.
But never compromising the word, which Frienduff gives a lot of good warnings.
Mat 23:23 (23) Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Read more: narrow-way-forums.freeforums.net/thread/1054/essentials-unity?page=2#ixzz5cyPhUXVsMat 23:23 (23) Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Here is what all should have considered before they fell for this false unity . Notice God never said to leave the other undone . We need to remember the weightier thing is THE GOSPLE , it is to LOVE CHRIST above all, even mother , father wife etc . To love His sayings first and foremost . For if we do this , we wont leave anything undone . Todays unity makes the focus on humanity First . That is why its false . They will exclude truths for unity . But how they sell it is truly deceptive . Because they will begin with things that are true . For example they will say meats drinks and days should not separate us , nor race etc . WHICH IS TRUE . But they do sell truth and they do have an agenda . They will not put Christ first . Though they say they do . If folks are pumping unity and not sound doctrine , not correcting as they ought , we better flee fast . It will start small . then as folks go under this spirit they will leave off being serious about the walk more and more and focus more on what unites us and not sound doctrine . Its sneaky how its sold at first . Ideals like go out and make friends , focus on what you have in common. NO , FOCUS ON JESUS and if any has error do all to help correct them . IF our love is truly Christ first , THEN IT IS the LOVE of the HOLY GHOST on us and from that love we would know HOW to love our neighbor as ourself and even our enemies . And our love would sound like puals . THOUGH the more abundantely I love you , the less I am loved . WHY . I mean if we turn eyes to sin and don't correct and just hug and get along , FOLKS wont love us less they would accept us more . BUT IF WE CORRECT because we love , WE WONT be loved more by most . Rebuke a wise man and HE will love you , but rebuke a scorner and he will hate you. Butero spoke of a book about building relationships . A book he did not like . BUT DO NOTICE they GIVE this book out in seminaries . YALL do know those concepts are tied RIGHT INTO this false unity . May as well be reading from rick warren . Folks don't realize how far this has went and its from the top down and its in so many now . We better be on guard when we hear correction from many when we correct and they answer us with WELL GOD IS LOVE , we don't have to be perfect or etc , we should be focusing on unity and what we have in common. YOU HEAR any thing like that , Rebuke first , THEN RUN if they heed not .
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Post by frienduff on Jan 18, 2019 10:51:26 GMT -5
And let not your conscious be troubled . If I or butero were against the unity which comes from GOD . THEN WHY did we even bother having a place Where the sheep could have unity IN CHRIST . IF I were against folks , THEN why on earth was I led , and butero led to have a place for folks . SO let no one conscious be troubled . I am not against us gathering . I am against us gathing under false doctrine. If I were against gathering , then why would I even be considering that we might be meeting in person in time as well. Yet at the same time always exhorting beware , beware of this false unity , false gathering , false love and etc. We need to remember the words of our LORD , who said when asked How the end of the age would look, BEWARE , BE ON GUARD that you be NOT DECIEVED . WELL we in those days of big time deception . And do I mean big time . Look how hard it is to find true pastors any more . Look at the confusion we in these days . IF we are going to make it , then we need THE LORD with every step we take . And that means LEARN HIM WELL. LEARN the doctrine , learn the approach and pattern in that bible , and learn it well. Cause I aint seeing it hardly at all in most folks anymore . And its our duty , the duty of those who have learned to ensure that others do too.
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