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Post by Sister on May 6, 2018 3:45:25 GMT -5
I am on fire because time is short. On the other Forum I couldn't speak freely. Always given warnings and threads stopped. Maybe seen as a trouble maker, and someone who likes to stir the pot. All I wanted was to get everyone excited about the Word. There are so many jewels to find. The churches don't want you to find these jewels. Your whole doctrine must come from them. There are terms and conditions that they have made up themselves and given as warnings, so you MUST comply to the doctrine they've delivered to you. If not, you are out. If you have questions, you can only ask them. Do not go out of the box, but stay inside the box for everyone else is out to deceive you,.there are wolves out there..this is their mentality and the one they'd like you to adopt also. Use their phrases, use their words, it doesn't have to be in the bible, but sometimes it is, for they will just take a verse and make a whole doctrine out of it. If they say it enough times, you will start speaking like them, repeating what they say like a parrot, and not even understanding that they got you hooked on the bait, and have given you the wrong interpretation. So without you knowing, you will keep repeating something exactly as they taught you, and even if you leave the church, it often sticks with you and you just keep repeating and repeating.
I am not here to stir trouble, but to get you to think. Please know that I love you all, and don't want to bury my pennies in the sand, but get some interest out of it. This is all for YOU, not me.
So in this thread, this is what I'd like to talk about.
Let's start with everyone who constantly says, "I am born again", or you have to be "born again". Please tell me what you think it means, and we can go from there.
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Post by justinadams on May 6, 2018 6:40:39 GMT -5
Oh Sis. What a question. We are led like sheep to the slaughter all the day long. To be Born from Above by the Spirit is something we mutter about darkly, but few really grasp this concept because it really embraces physical death. You hear stuff like "we are not under the law" continually and so conveniently forget the Tanach that explains rebirth rather well. Yeshua told Nicodemus what it meant, and further pointed out it was an act of Yahweh. The meaning of Yeshua is 'Ya is Salvation'. When His blood touched the Mercy Seat, it all changed: blackness over the earth; the Temple Veil torn from top to bottom; people seen raised from their tombs. Death passed away and victory took its place!! To be born from above is similarly an epic event!!
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on May 6, 2018 7:48:32 GMT -5
I'm a little confused here, Sister. Do you think "born again" is a catchphrase put out by the church? I don't want to spend an hour trying to write a pithy post about it if the very premise is being rejected.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2018 12:56:44 GMT -5
That forum sadly is often counter-productive to God's will and seems to be dominated by a vocal minority there...the moderators just do what those ones want when they complain. I think Israel is their idol and stumbling block, rather than loving the truth and God. Someone just got their thread shut down for daring to mention that the gospel was taken from Israel and given to the Gentiles. Not that we don't love the Jews, we do. Just that the Lord God is doing what pleases Him and we bow down to His will and ways....for one thing He is a great equalizer I find, equalizing the Jews and Gentiles in His mysterious way. The last will be first and the first will be last.....that doesn't make anyone greater or lesser, it equalizes everyone in the end, so that none can boast over another.
Born again......that is the truth that was restored to the Reformers of the protestant movement. It means being born from above, born of the Spirit.....when we receive the spirit of adoption and become His spiritual children. Like Eve was born out of Adam's side.......the church was born out of the side of our crucified Saviour, His broken body...through faith in Him. i believe it is a term that really encompasses both the conception and the birth. But I have a feeling you have something more you want to bring out...
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Post by tlsitd on May 6, 2018 16:20:03 GMT -5
To be born again means to be spiritually regenerated by the Holy Spirit coming to live in your spirit---God's Spirit coming to live in you, so that you can know Him in truth and have spiritual fellowship with Him, and be renewed by Him with spiritual understanding to be like Himself, as well as by the desires of His Spirit, which He gives you when He comes to live in you---the desire for God and for the things of interest to and pleasing to Him. True conversion (ie, being born again) is a supernatural act of God, by which He quickens the spirit of a person, and makes him or her a new creation in Christ, and a genuine Christian. Without that event (and it is a one-time event, and not a gradual process like practical sanctification, and not merely a feeling of excitement or happiness in an emotional moment), a person is not truly born-again, and thus not a true Christian---regardless of whether he or she practices the teachings of Christianity or calls him or herself a Christian, or has been water-baptized, or belongs to a church, or prayed the sinner's prayer, etc, etc.
"Born-again" is not a synonym for an evangelical Christian, or a denominational title of some kind. "Born-again Christian" is a redundant term, as there is no other kind of Christian. "Born-again", "saved" and "Christian" are synonymous, in truth: If you've been born again, you are saved, and you are a Christian. If you haven't, you aren't.
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Post by tlsitd on May 6, 2018 16:44:21 GMT -5
That forum sadly is often counter-productive to God's will and seems to be dominated by a vocal minority there...the moderators just do what those ones want when they complain. I think Israel is their idol and stumbling block, rather than loving the truth and God. Someone just got their thread shut down for daring to mention that the gospel was taken from Israel and given to the Gentiles. Not that we don't love the Jews, we do. Just that the Lord God is doing what pleases Him and we bow down to His will and ways....for one thing He is a great equalizer I find, equalizing the Jews and Gentiles in His mysterious way. The last will be first and the first will be last.....that doesn't make anyone greater or lesser, it equalizes everyone in the end, so that none can boast over another. I agree. There is an antagonistic, contentious, and proud spirit dominating WCF--- not the attitudes and desires of the Holy Spirit. A small number that stir up trouble with anyone who doesn't agree with them (about the Jews in particular) poison it---sort of like the Jews who followed the apostle Paul from place to place stirring up trouble and trying to turn people against his words. The fact that they actually have a forum for Hebrew Roots (a heretical movement) tells you what WCF's bias is. They exalt the Jews there in a way that God does not. It's an earthly attitude, and not a spiritual one. (Just a note: The gospel was never taken away from the Jews. The kingdom of God was, in the sense that God rejected them from being His chosen people (as a nation) for rejecting His Son. The majority of them were hardened against receiving the gospel while the gospel was being preached to the Gentiles; but not all of them were hardened. Small numbers of Jews have been getting saved since the majority were hardened for rejecting Jesus Christ as their Messiah; but most of them still reject the gospel. When all of the lost sheep among the Gentiles have been found, God will again open the door of salvation to a remnant of elect Jews He has kept for salvation in the last days---144,000 men from the 12 tribes of Israel. Just as the Jews were once God's chosen people and the other nations were in darkness, so now salvation has come to the nations through the gospel and the Jews are in darkness. God's chosen people, and His nation, are His elect, whether they are Jews by birth or non-Jews---not the Jewish people as a whole, and not the state of Israel.)
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Post by 2fw8212a on May 6, 2018 20:50:31 GMT -5
Please tell me what you think it means, and we can go from there. "We love Him because He first loved us." - 1 John 4:19
"But if anyone loves God, this one is known by Him." - 1 Corinthians 8:3
"He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." - 1 John 2:4Today, we are seeing many people being deceived in thinking that they just need to heartlessly say a sinner's prayer and they are saved. It takes faith to be born again. "But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways." - James 1:6
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Post by Sister on May 7, 2018 0:02:06 GMT -5
Revelation 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Jesus is coming with his reward at his return. He has a box full of goodies with him and will hand out after our journey is over. We cannot claim the prize before the race is finished. We must get to the other side first, then the reward will be given.
Isaiah 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
Labour pains must come first before the birth. All in order. But this is no ordinary birth. Zion who is the woman in Rev 12, will give birth to all her children at once....only after she has gone through final labour pains (persecutions), will her children will be born. Labour first, then delivery. This is speaking of the resurrection of the saints at Christ's coming. All will be born out of Zion, Holy Jerusalem,...born out of her womb which is God's doctrine. We are growing in her womb at the moment, being nurtured, and fed so that we can be born healthy and not stillborn. At the birth, all of us will be changed, born spirit. This is the 2nd birth for us. The first time, we came out of our mother's womb, when we were born flesh.
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
We have to be born “flesh” first by coming out of our mothers womb. We have to enter the world first this way. This has nothing to do with baptism, but is simple. The womb that carried us was full of water. The waters broke, and then we came out. This is what Christ means “born of water”. Born flesh out of our mother. Nothing to do with baptism. Just a simple procedure. Our first birth.
The second time we will be born spirit at the resurrection. It must happen in this order.
Born again means twice. Not three times.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Can you see the contrast? We are still flesh. Flesh is limited. We still get sick, we feel pain, and we still die. We are learning to understand spiritual things and changing our hearts, but cannot visibly see all that is in the kingdom of God. We cannot see God, cannot see Christ, cannot see angels, cannot see all his glory with our eyes UNTIL we are finally born of the spirit in the resurrection. Only then can we see all.
The churches say, that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit flesh.
We are still flesh. We have not got our wings yet. We cannot fly, we still die. We must finish the journey first, then we can say we are born again, born the 2nd time, not the 3rd.
Born again = born twice. First in the flesh from our mother, second time out of Zion, born spirit.
John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Jesus said Marvel not! Why are we MARVELING about this and not heeding his words? Are these words not repeated over and over and over? I met a lovely girl the other day. I asked her if she was Christian? She said yes I am a born again Christian, her husband jumped in defensively and said, four generations of my family have been attending the Anglican church. We go there.. I realised then that everybody repeats this little catch phrase no matter where they worship.
There is a renewing of the mind yes, but the change has not yet fully come.....It's coming, it will happen...but it's not here yet.
We are not yet perfected. It doesn't matter how much we cry that we are saved, and try to claim our reward now, but the truth is the reward is coming with Christ! When we find ourselves standing in that resurrection, then we can say we are born again. Because the resurrection is PROOF that we have been accepted by Christ and have received our new perfected bodies, in the same form now as Christ.
Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
This is not to take our hope away, for this is our hope and what we are walking towards. But there are many who claim they are born again and saved before the race is over, and before Christ comes with his reward. We know many will fall away when persecutions arise who are claiming they are born again.
Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Hebrews 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Hebrews 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
You cannot see spirit! We cannot see the angels. Do we see the Lord when he comes and dines with us? They come and go and we don’t even know they are there. We will be like them INVISIBLE, ….SPIRIT…..being sent where-ever. Made of a higher material, and not covered in flesh. We are not like the wind yet, not invisible. People can see us coming a mile away! Because we are not truly and finally Born Again yet.
1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
The flesh has to be changed to spirit first before it can “inherit” the kingdom of God. That is the requirement, and that change is necessary, ....without being in a part of the resurrection it is impossible.. This is when we will be truly born again! It is not just talking about the renewing of the mind, because people can fall away, this is speaking about the real thing, our change at the resurrection.
And I think this is why Christ said not to marvel that he said we must be born again, because he knew that it was going to be a catch phrase easily misunderstood. He was speaking of something much deeper, but so simple really.
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Post by Sister on May 7, 2018 0:15:49 GMT -5
Self explanatory. Straight forward.
1 Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1 Corinthians 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1 Corinthians 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
1 Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
1 Corinthians 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
1 Corinthians 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
1 Corinthians 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1 Corinthians 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1 Corinthians 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
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Post by 2fw8212a on May 7, 2018 6:32:08 GMT -5
We are not yet perfected. It doesn't matter how much we cry that we are saved, and try to claim our reward now, but the truth is the reward is coming with Christ! Again, it takes faith to be born again. "Now the just shall live by faith; But if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him." - Hebrews 10:38It does not matter if they invent doctrines to escape this, the truth will prevail. And blessed are those who are standing firmly in it. "But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul." - Hebrews 10:39It is obvious that people will be used by Satan to discourage you to keep in the faith, to walk in love, and to dedicate yourself to Christ. Why would anyone oppose people who seek to practice good things in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. "And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him." - Colossians 3:17The truth is that people who are not spiritual cannot understand it. "But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." - 1 Corinthians 2:14
"He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters." - Luke 11:23
God bless you in Jesus' name!
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2018 7:21:38 GMT -5
Trying to keep in mind that there is more than one layer to these truths, because it is speaking in the spirit of spiritual things. For example the bible speaks of two kinds of perfection, one is the perfection we can have now, and the other is perfection that comes at His coming and we receive our immortal bodies. And believers can blow like the wind now, and taste of heavenly things like that, even now, where Phillip was one example, and the angel/brethren in Revelations, and I have no doubt there will be an increase of such heavenly gifts during the tribulation too, prior to His coming. Being born of water can be speaking of baptism as well, because that is more important and more powerful and necessary than we might know. Being born of the spirit is for this life now, as well as can be speaking of what comes later. Often where we see apparent contradictions is because they both are right, it is not a case of arguing either/or, but it is a matter of both being true in spirit.
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Post by 2fw8212a on May 7, 2018 7:26:12 GMT -5
I am on fire because time is short. On the other Forum I couldn't speak freely. Good to know, and good to have you around. You are loved! "Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." - 2 Corinthians 3:17
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Post by tlsitd on May 7, 2018 7:27:09 GMT -5
Oh boy, Sister. Where do I begin? I'll do my best to be concise and just address the main items:
First, and most importantly I think, is that it is not true that Christians aren't truly born again or saved until Christ's return, when the saints will receive their glorified, immortal, spiritual bodies. We are saved the moment Jesus comes to live in us. His Spirit is the guarantee of this. That experience is the born-again experience, not our transformation at Christ's return, which is our perfection. You are confusing the perfection of the saints with being born again, and they are not the same thing.
We are "being saved" in the sense that we have not yet finished our course here on earth, and that if we should choose to fall away from the Lord before we finish it, and thereby forfeit the salvation that we have, we will not remain saved. But we are indeed saved now, so long as we remain in Christ. It is possible not to remain in Him, and the Scriptures give us plenty of warnings about that, but so long as we remain in Him and He in us, we are saved. This is why we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling; not to earn it, but to keep it!
(You are, however, correct about what the Lord said about being born of water and the Spirit; that the water is a reference to natural birth and not to water baptism, which is an obsolete, symbolic Jewish rite, of which the baptism of the Spirit---the "ONE baptism" of Christianity, which is the same as the born-again experience---is the reality.
The FILLING of the Holy Spirit, which is also referred to as a baptism (Acts 1:4,5), and which experience is separate from being born again, is not the baptism that saves.
All Christians, if they are truly Christians, have experienced the spiritual baptism of the Spirit of Christ which quickens and saves, and which is the "one baptism" that Ephesians 4:5 refers to. But not all Christians are, or will be, FILLED with the Holy Spirit. Being filled with the Spirit is not necessary for salvation, nor are all Christians full of the Spirit merely because He lives in them. Most have not been filled. Filling is mainly an equipment for certain ministries, such as evangelism, or pastoring, and it comes with things like increased boldness, or spiritual gifts of various kinds for the ministry, such as speaking in other languages (or "tongues"). It is not, however, a prerequisite for having spiritual gifts, which God gives as He wills. The disciples cast out demons and healed the sick before they were filled with the Spirit on the day of Pentacost. While it is possible for a person to be filled with the Spirit at the same time that he is born again/saved, most Christians are not.)
Secondly, that passage from Isaiah 66 refers to the salvation of the 144,000 Jews, not to the salvation of Christians in general, or to their perfection at Christ's return on the last day of the tribulation.
The labor pains described in Isaiah 66 is the tribulation, just before which time, or at the very start of which, the 144,000 Jews will be saved, probably in a single day, just like those 3,000 souls were saved on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:41). The mother of this remnant is heavenly Jerusalem, the mother of all the saints (who is what the woman in Revelation chapter 12 symbolizes, as you correctly identified). The labor pains of heavenly Jerusalem ("Zion") described in Isaiah 66 is the persecution of her children during the tribulation. (Compare to what Jesus said in John 16:20-22.)
The main error in what you posted is the confusion of salvation and spiritual perfection, which are two different things. Christians are spiritual even while they are in the mortal body, because they have the Spirit of Christ in them and are united with God in spirit and able to fellowship with Him, to understand spiritual truths, and have the desires of His Spirit in them, as the unsaved do not and cannot.
The more Christ-like we are in our thinking, as God renews our minds with understanding and gives us more of His desires, the more spiritual we are, practically speaking. But so long as we are in the body, though we are spiritual, by virtue of being in Christ and for the aforementioned reasons, (some of us more practically spiritual than others...), and though we are born again/saved, we are not perfected. We still have the sinful nature as long as we are in this earthly body, and we are not immortal (obviously). That will not happen until we are changed on the day of the Lord.
The spirits of the saints who are in heaven are perfect (Hebrews 12:23) in the sense that they no longer have the sinful nature and are as much like Christ as they are going to be, according to what they chose to do with their time on earth. But they have not yet received their spiritual bodies. They will receive them on the last day, along with the saints who remain on the earth until the coming of the Lord. Their spirits will return with Christ, AND they will be bodily resurrected in spiritual bodies, which will reflect the glory of the Lord from one degree to another, depending on what kind of saints they were on earth. Likewise with the transformation of the raptured saints on that day.
But none of this has anything to do with being saved/born-again. So long as the Spirit of Jesus lives in you, and you don't forfeit your salvation, you are saved. (I'm certainly not waiting to find out whether I'm saved or not; I know for certain that I am. If I died in the next five minutes, I know for 100% sure that I would go to heaven.) The Spirit of God is our life and our guarantee of spending eternity with Him.
Sanctification is a process; salvation is not. Do not confuse the KEEPING of what we do have now (eternal life), by obedience and faithfulness to the Lord to the end of our course, with the EARNING of something we do not yet have.
"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life." (John 5:24)
"I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in Me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never die." (John 11:25,26)
...God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ---by grace you have been saved---and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages He might show the immeasurable riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. (Ephesians 2:4-9)
For we know that if the tent, which is our earthly home, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling, if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked. For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened---not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. (2 Corinthians 5:1-5)
Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself...Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life. (1 John 5:11-13)
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2018 8:08:59 GMT -5
Just a further word about baptism in case it is helpful.....it is the spiritual principle of first the natural, then the spiritual. Baptism is a prophetic act that seals in the spiritual realm what is acted out in the natural realm by faith.
Rom 6:3-9
Know ye not, THAT SO MANY OF US AS WERE BAPTIZED INTO JESUS CHIRST WERE BAPTIZED INTO HIS DEATH?
Therefore WE ARE BURIED WITH HIM BY BAPTISM INTO DEATH: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the LIKENESS OF HIS DEATH, we shall be also in the LIKENESS OF HIS RESURRECTION:
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on May 7, 2018 8:09:12 GMT -5
I’m with Light on this one. The Bible makes a clear distinction between Christians who are both “alive” and “awake” here in this life, and the wicked who are spiritually dead. We must come alive as spiritual creatures who can navigate spiritual environments today. Ultimate salvation from all peril comes later.
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