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Post by tlsitd on May 7, 2018 16:45:04 GMT -5
Let us consider how Jude described apostate Christians in verse 12: “autumn trees without fruit, twice dead...” Christians are born as spiritual creatures upon the moment of their conversion. They are citizens of a heavenly kingdom already. If they starve and abuse this inner spiritual person, it can die, and then there’s no “Plan B” path to salvation. So the wicked are dead in their sins, Christians are spiritually alive, and a Christian who kills his spirit self is twice dead. All of this was presented by the apostles in present tense. It isn’t about a collective resurrection many years from now. Yes, "twice dead" refers to people who were saved (born again, spiritually living) and died again. The unsaved have never come to life, so they cannot die again. But a Christian can. And, as it says in Hebrews 6, if this happens, it is impossible for that person to be restored to life again. He or she has sealed his or her fate.
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Post by tlsitd on May 7, 2018 16:57:36 GMT -5
This verse is not referring to salvation in the spiritual sense, but in the physical sense: Being rescued from the fate of this world when Jesus returns---provided we are still in Him at that time. Otherwise, we will fare the same as those who have never known Him. Everything sister lights said is true . but I want us to examine this part . ACTUALLY its far worse to have known him AND THEN RETURN to the pit the latter end is WORSE . I have a horrible truth to share, concerning this, but it will be a good thing for the saints to bear in mind for the time to come, for when temptation arises, as well as a warning for the present time, for as many as God grants to receive it, for those who are "playing with fire". The truth is that people who were saved, who did know Christ and then fell away from Him, will suffer worse in the lake of fire than anyone else---more than Jews who rejected the gospel, more than non-Jews who rejected the gospel. For all eternity they will have to bear the guilt and mental anguish of knowing what they had and lost. I can't even imagine what a torment that will be.
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Post by Sister on May 7, 2018 22:18:24 GMT -5
Ok thanks everyone. I read all your comments and all were good. But this is a hard wall to break. Just a few simple verses of Jesus explaining what born again truly means has led us into a slightly different direction of what I was specifically trying to point out.
I get that we can tell people that we are saved, because we believe on Jesus, who has the power to save if we walk in his commandments.
The only thing I have a problem with is the words born again used so loosely. Jesus said not to marvel that he told us this “we must be born again”, and then went on to explain what he meant, it might take a while to sink in, yet those exact words are used and repeated over and over, and not explained to the flock what he truly mean’t according to his own explanation. We can look at all the other scriptures as much as we like and take them into consideration, but all I ask is to look at the below for now, and not be too quick to dismiss, but have a think first and pray about it. I think it's great that everyone expressed their opinion and I really enjoyed this discussion. Thank you, but time to move on to other topics or we will get stuck here. God bless.
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2018 7:59:31 GMT -5
I understand what you are saying Sister.....and it's what the birth pangs of tribulation is for, to bring to birth that which is spirit. For my part I just wanted to mention that there are two kinds of perfection scripture speaks of in the epistles. Only recently I realized that the picture we are given in the saga of the children of Israel leaving Egypt, crossing the Red Sea and journey through the wilderness, the generation that "died" (flesh) before they could cross the Jordan to enter the Promised Land........is speaking on two levels. One is the perfection/maturity that we can have in this life apprehending the sabbath rest of God and our inheritance of all that we can have with the earnest of the Spirit......and secondly it is speaking of the perfection to come and our full inheritance and adoption upon the receiving of the 'balance owing' of the Holy Spirit leading to mortality putting on immortality, and it is this second and final rebirth that you are showing here and it is marvellous to see. So I believe that Jesus was speaking on more than one level in the spirit when He spoke of being born again. I don't think it is wrong to preach to the lost that they must be born again.....but i believe there is also a deeper aspect to this, the blessed hope which comes later and which is the rebirth you are talking about here. And you know what, I believe it is timely, how the Lord is opening our eyes to these things because we are getting nearer to the end.
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Post by Sister on May 8, 2018 9:16:15 GMT -5
I understand what you are saying Sister.....and it's what the birth pangs of tribulation is for, to bring to birth that which is spirit. For my part I just wanted to mention that there are two kinds of perfection scripture speaks of in the epistles. Only recently I realized that the picture we are given in the saga of the children of Israel leaving Egypt, crossing the Red Sea and journey through the wilderness, the generation that "died" (flesh) before they could cross the Jordan to enter the Promised Land........is speaking on two levels. One is the perfection/maturity that we can have in this life apprehending the sabbath rest of God and our inheritance of all that we can have with the earnest of the Spirit......and secondly it is speaking of the perfection to come and our full inheritance and adoption upon the receiving of the 'balance owing' of the Holy Spirit leading to mortality putting on immortality, and it is this second and final rebirth that you are showing here and it is marvellous to see. So I believe that Jesus was speaking on more than one level in the spirit when He spoke of being born again. I don't think it is wrong to preach to the lost that they must be born again.....but i believe there is also a deeper aspect to this, the blessed hope which comes later and which is the rebirth you are talking about here. And you know what, I believe it is timely, how the Lord is opening our eyes to these things because we are getting nearer to the end. I enjoyed the way you summed this up, thank you. A great analysis!
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on May 8, 2018 9:24:28 GMT -5
I don't want to sound argumentative. But as it seems to me, the only way to accept Sister's position is to ignore half of Romans. Flesh and spirit are in a state of coexistence right now for every Christian. We enter God's kingdom as baby spiritual creatures trapped in a human body. As our spirit self grows stronger and begins to dominate our personality, we destroy the deeds of flesh. (Incidentally, consuming the meat of the word was never meant as academic knowledge, but gaining more authority and empowerment.)
Of course what's born of flesh is flesh. This doesn't mean flesh and spirit can't coexist. Otherwise Christ would have been an anomaly and not the second Adam. He wouldn't have given His apostles the keys to the kingdom if they were not even citizens of that kingdom yet. They couldn't have been citizens unless they were spiritual persons. THIS is why the demon in Acts 19 asked those unsaved Jews who they were. Paul had a spiritual identity which they did not have, because they were not born into a spiritual kingdom.
As for Rachel weeping for her children, Matthew told us that prophecy was fulfilled when Herod slaughtered Jewish babies (Matthew 2:17-18).
Why are there no labor pains for individual Christians at their spiritual birth? Because we are adopted. We don't have a spiritual mother, only a spiritual Father who seeded our spiritual life in Himself and the triune God. We are grafted in. We must remain and abide in Christ at all times lest we spiritually perish, because we are not independent creatures. But we are spiritual creatures. Catholic paganism assigns "Mother Mary" to our spiritual birth to step around this. Protestants do not.
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Post by 2fw8212a on May 8, 2018 10:17:09 GMT -5
Why are there no labor pains for individual Christians at their spiritual birth? I believe there is."My little children, for whom I labor in birth again until Christ is formed in you" - Galatians 4:19It is called godly sorrow, which leads the person to repentance and must be answered with sincere faith only God can give."For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death." - 2 Corinthians 7:10This is the faith required to become a child of God that will overcome the world. People with hardened hearts cannot experience this nor see the truth."Yes, all of you be submissive to one another, and be clothed with humility, for
“God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble.”" - 1 Peter 5:5A faithless and heartless confession of sins and a superficial trust in Christ cannot save anyone.That is why those people cannot remain in the truth, because the love of God - which is shed by His Holy Spirit - is not in them."Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’" - Matthew 7:21-24Because they have refused the love of God, and without it they are unable to do His will; or to comprehend it."But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." - John 1:12-13
"All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him." - Matthew 11:27
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on May 8, 2018 13:45:36 GMT -5
2fw, I agree with everything you said. But I think Paul’s quote in Galatians was written to Christians already in the kingdom. Paul groaned as surrogate parent striving to bring them to maturity.
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Post by Sister on May 10, 2018 1:30:06 GMT -5
I don't want to sound argumentative. But as it seems to me, the only way to accept Sister's position is to ignore half of Romans. Flesh and spirit are in a state of coexistence right now for every Christian. We enter God's kingdom as baby spiritual creatures trapped in a human body. As our spirit self grows stronger and begins to dominate our personality, we destroy the deeds of flesh. (Incidentally, consuming the meat of the word was never meant as academic knowledge, but gaining more authority and empowerment.)
Of course what's born of flesh is flesh. This doesn't mean flesh and spirit can't coexist. Otherwise Christ would have been an anomaly and not the second Adam. He wouldn't have given His apostles the keys to the kingdom if they were not even citizens of that kingdom yet. They couldn't have been citizens unless they were spiritual persons. THIS is why the demon in Acts 19 asked those unsaved Jews who they were. Paul had a spiritual identity which they did not have, because they were not born into a spiritual kingdom.
As for Rachel weeping for her children, Matthew told us that prophecy was fulfilled when Herod slaughtered Jewish babies (Matthew 2:17-18).
PG4Him
If born again, you are resurrected into spirit form. It is done. Can not fall away. All so called born again are still flesh and can fall away, and many will fall away. Which is born of the spirit is SPIRIT and not flesh. First born flesh, then born spirit. This is what Christ was speaking about.
We enter into this life as flesh creatures, and care only for the flesh, we are not spiritual creatures. There is a difference between living in the spirit and being spirit. We will be like the angels and can never fall away again when we are born again.
God's woman is spirit and she is his doctrine. She will give birth to all her children at the resurrection. This is born again.
The woman goes through the labour pains before her children can be born, symbolising us going through the trauma of coming out of the womb. Persecutions... because of her doctrine. This woman called Zion, who is Holy Jerusalem, mother of us all, is not Mary. Mary was flesh. God's woman is spirit. We will be born out of her doctrine. Her doctrine is God's doctrine, and she's not a real woman, but God is using her as a metaphor, because his doctrine produces children for himself. All will be born again out of his teachings. That doctrine we received is the one that changed us and showed us the way to salvation. We are being nurtured through his teachings, his woman metaphorically speaking. She represents his faithful wife, pure, loyal, full of love, compassion, comfort, giving out rules, and discipline in raising his children. Some don't like to hear this but she is written about all over the scriptures, and none recognise her. This is not a pagan thing, this is God's way of expressing himself, comparing his doctrine to a woman. We have to come out of the flesh mindset and think spiritually.
Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
She's not physical, she's truth, and she is his doctrine, and she is the one who will give birth to all her children in one day.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on May 10, 2018 7:34:17 GMT -5
This certainly isn’t worth an argument. I see your position, and that’s fine.
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Post by 2fw8212a on May 10, 2018 8:29:58 GMT -5
I am not here to stir trouble... I know.Please know that I love you all... I know.This is all for YOU, not me. Thank you very much!"Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers: that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him" - Ephesians 1:15-17Glory to God! Amen. "For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen." - Romans 11:36
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Post by Sister on May 10, 2018 9:28:36 GMT -5
This certainly isn’t worth an argument. I see your position, and that’s fine. It's all good PG4him, I don't want to argue either. I feel like deleting the above, not because I am unsure, but I kept getting so many interruptions today that it wasn't well written and all over the place.
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Post by Sister on May 10, 2018 9:34:32 GMT -5
I am not here to stir trouble... I know.Please know that I love you all... I know.This is all for YOU, not me. Thank you very much!"Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers: that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him" - Ephesians 1:15-17Glory to God! Amen. "For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen." - Romans 11:362f, I felt a little down today because the oppressor never gives up, not for one day. I truly do love all my brothers and sisters in the Lord, and I don't want to seem like a know it all, because I am still learning also, it never ends. Thank you for recognising that I love you all. I am not above any one here. Everybody shares their bit.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on May 10, 2018 9:56:33 GMT -5
Sister, please don’t think I’m writing you off as some sort of kook. There may indeed (probably, in fact) be more truth in your position than I presently see. We are all works in progress. It is nigh impossible to articulate spiritual knowledge in a face-to-face dialog — much less typing on an internet forum. I know the feeling to have such crystal clear assurance of something, only to bumble like a fool when I speak of it.
Our journey to truth happens slowly because God will not crack or violate reason along the way. People who force themselves to believe what they cannot believe will ultimately abuse and dull their rational senses. Then they lose their ability to contend for true doctrine. God values our ability to believe (and express) a cohesive narrative. Without this, we are little more than parrots who hope we say the right thing. I believe this is why God tolerates different Protestant churches. If I have the fundamental faith in Christ enough to save my soul, God would rather lead us slowly through mental soundness. We will get there in the end.
So don’t be discouraged if a massively different view doesn’t catch on right away. Jesus Himself tossed seed onto ground that didn’t always receive it. We do the best we can to articulate what we know, and we let others accept as they please. If Jesus didn’t even give Himself the power to make other people believe, He certainly did not give such ability to us.
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Post by 2fw8212a on May 10, 2018 10:04:16 GMT -5
2f, I felt a little down today because the oppressor never gives us, not for one day. "Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us." - Romans 8:33-34I truly do love all my brothers and sisters in the Lord... I know. Do not worry! I don't want to seem like a know it all, because I am still learning also, it never ends. OK, it does not seem to be the case to me. I never saw it that way... What I see is that you have a sincere hunger and interest for His Word, and you are highly blessed on that regard. Thank you for recognising that I love you all. I am not above any one here. Everybody shares their bit. And keep sharing. You are huge blessing!
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