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Post by tlsitd on May 10, 2018 15:36:20 GMT -5
I don't want to sound argumentative. But as it seems to me, the only way to accept Sister's position is to ignore half of Romans. Flesh and spirit are in a state of coexistence right now for every Christian. We enter God's kingdom as baby spiritual creatures trapped in a human body. As our spirit self grows stronger and begins to dominate our personality, we destroy the deeds of flesh. (Incidentally, consuming the meat of the word was never meant as academic knowledge, but gaining more authority and empowerment.)
Of course what's born of flesh is flesh. This doesn't mean flesh and spirit can't coexist. Otherwise Christ would have been an anomaly and not the second Adam. He wouldn't have given His apostles the keys to the kingdom if they were not even citizens of that kingdom yet. They couldn't have been citizens unless they were spiritual persons. THIS is why the demon in Acts 19 asked those unsaved Jews who they were. Paul had a spiritual identity which they did not have, because they were not born into a spiritual kingdom.
As for Rachel weeping for her children, Matthew told us that prophecy was fulfilled when Herod slaughtered Jewish babies (Matthew 2:17-18).
PG4Him
If born again, you are resurrected into spirit form. It is done. Can not fall away. All so called born again are still flesh and can fall away, and many will fall away. Which is born of the spirit is SPIRIT and not flesh. First born flesh, then born spirit. This is what Christ was speaking about.
We enter into this life as flesh creatures, and care only for the flesh, we are not spiritual creatures. There is a difference between living in the spirit and being spirit. We will be like the angels and can never fall away again when we are born again.
God's woman is spirit and she is his doctrine. She will give birth to all her children at the resurrection. This is born again.
The woman goes through the labour pains before her children can be born, symbolising us going through the trauma of coming out of the womb. Persecutions... because of her doctrine. This woman called Zion, who is Holy Jerusalem, mother of us all, is not Mary. Mary was flesh. God's woman is spirit. We will be born out of her doctrine. Her doctrine is God's doctrine, and she's not a real woman, but God is using her as a metaphor, because his doctrine produces children for himself. All will be born again out of his teachings. That doctrine we received is the one that changed us and showed us the way to salvation. We are being nurtured through his teachings, his woman metaphorically speaking. She represents his faithful wife, pure, loyal, full of love, compassion, comfort, giving out rules, and discipline in raising his children. Some don't like to hear this but she is written about all over the scriptures, and none recognise her. This is not a pagan thing, this is God's way of expressing himself, comparing his doctrine to a woman. We have to come out of the flesh mindset and think spiritually.
Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
She's not physical, she's truth, and she is his doctrine, and she is the one who will give birth to all her children in one day.
Sister, I say this in love, but your understanding of doctrine in this matter is quite flawed, and not what the Scriptures teach, even if you think that they do. I'm sorry; I can't help you with this, though I wish I could. What I wrote in my previous responses to you about what it means to be born again, and not confusing spiritual regeneration (the second birth, by which we receive eternal life and become Christians, and spiritual creatures---though not entirely spiritual) with the spiritual perfection of the saints, is correct. I do not say this in arrogance; I'm simply speaking the truth in love. I would advise you to seek the Lord for greater clarity in this matter, so as to not be embracing "light" that isn't light, and unwittingly misinterpreting the Scriptures so as to think you are seeing deeper truth about something when it is actually confusion and error---and to avoid unintentionally confusing others with the same.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2018 18:06:51 GMT -5
Heavenly Zion.....the Jerusalem that is above is our mother......and we are born in Zion! \o/ Is that what you are saying Sister?
Psa 87:5
Indeed, of Zion it will be said, “This one and that one were born in her, and the Most High himself will establish her.”
Yes, the Bride is Spiritual Israel....Heavenly Zion.....His truth, His wisdom, the gospel, His doctrine as you are calling it. Wisdom in Proverbs is the true woman and the adulteress is the false woman. Amen...all over the scriptures. I didnt' get it at first, but now I think I understand (subject to your confirmation). And we are both born in her as well being part of her....and also will be.
I think I see why some are thinking it's not right....I wondered at first if the allegory was being stretched too far, but I don't think you meant it like that, but it's a way of explaining in human words, what is a spiritual truth, the way that God showed it to your spiritual eyes. Funny how that Psa 87 verse clinched it for me.....I find the Lord often uses different scriptures with each one to show the same truth.
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Post by Sister on May 11, 2018 10:09:10 GMT -5
Sister lights
(I have to make the font 12pts, because the 10pts hurts my eyes)
Thank you for your love, I have so much love for you also, and felt it the first time I heard you speak .
How do I say this without seeming proud?....Sister I am confident in what I am saying and not confused about it, but crystal clear. I have raised this subject up in knowing perfectly well that it’s not going to be received too well, fully expecting many to think me confused and in grave error, but I have learn’t to put that fear aside of what others think of me over the years, or else I would never speak up about anything. I will take all the hits, because this is not for my glory. Sister, I really don't want to argue about this, but can I just say that no matter how much we think we know, there is always more to learn, and the Word is the proof in the pudding. This is what I am going by, what is written below. I am not asking anyone for help, but am making a firm statement of which I stand by. Nobody has to believe me. They can take it or leave it.
My testimony is knowing the truth, and that there is a doctrine that is sound, and a doctrine that is distorted. All I ask is to not make a rash judgment, but to give it time, and if the Lord shows you, you will see.
I did read your response about not confusing spiritual regeneration with the spiritual perfection of the saints and it depends on where you read about born again, but reading here in John 3, Christ is not speaking about the spiritual regeneration when we receive eternal life by becoming Christians but going straight past all that to the perfection of the saints.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
If we are taught that being born of water means being baptised, and not born naturally out of our mother, then the whole interpretation of this above will go wrong.
So to show that I am not delving into something that is not there, I also gave this scripture;
1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
We are flesh now serving in the spirit of Christ, but none the less still flesh. Before we can “inherit” the kingdom we must receive our change at the resurrection. Simple.
Christ is coming with his reward, and that means he has not given out the final prize yet. We cannot claim it until that change. We are chosen to inherit, but cannot claim that we have already inherited. The requirement is that you have to be changed first before you can enter. The switch from flesh to spirit. Born again.
1 Corinthians 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1 Corinthians 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Born again.
I love you sister.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2018 10:15:35 GMT -5
John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
This refers to once we become "like the angels".......but ALSO.....the believer can experience it now in this life, like Phillip did when he was translated. Tasting of the heavenly things....because we are born again, even though on another level we are still waiting for it, the fullness of it. For now we only have the earnest of it.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on May 11, 2018 10:31:55 GMT -5
Please allow me to add one thing here. Everyone is sure that they have rigorously studied Scripture under the Holy Spirit’s guidance, and that others will surely reach the same conclusion if they’d crack open a few epistles and apply themselves. Let’s establish common respect among this group, that no one here is getting lazy doctrine from lazy Sunday school classes. All of us are rigorous students. All of us are striving to be led by the Spirit.
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Post by John on May 15, 2018 8:39:03 GMT -5
Ok thanks everyone. I read all your comments and all were good. But this is a hard wall to break. Just a few simple verses of Jesus explaining what born again truly means has led us into a slightly different direction of what I was specifically trying to point out.
I get that we can tell people that we are saved, because we believe on Jesus, who has the power to save if we walk in his commandments.
The only thing I have a problem with is the words born again used so loosely. Jesus said not to marvel that he told us this “we must be born again”, and then went on to explain what he meant, it might take a while to sink in, yet those exact words are used and repeated over and over, and not explained to the flock what he truly mean’t according to his own explanation. We can look at all the other scriptures as much as we like and take them into consideration, but all I ask is to look at the below for now, and not be too quick to dismiss, but have a think first and pray about it. I think it's great that everyone expressed their opinion and I really enjoyed this discussion. Thank you, but time to move on to other topics or we will get stuck here. God bless.
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Here is what Jesus is saying. Our natural man can't comprehend spiritual things. Until we are born again by the Spirit, we can't see or enter into God's Kingdom. After the new birth, we see the reality of the Kingdom. We see it on this earth in the Christian church, and know a physical Kingdom exists in the heavenly realm and we become citizens of that Kingdom. We are ambassadors of that Kingdom in this world. We are like duel citizens of our nation of birth here and are also citizens of a heavenly Kingdom where God rules and reigns. I see it is real through the pages of our heavenly road map, the Holy Bible, like I know nations exist I have never physically visited, as they are found on a world Atlas. If we are saved, we are born again.
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Post by 2fw8212a on May 15, 2018 10:31:27 GMT -5
All of us are rigorous students. All of us are striving to be led by the Spirit. I do not think I could consider myself a rigorous student.
I just read the Word, and trust in Him by faith. And I pass some time thinking about it.When I have started reading, my concern was to find and to live according to the truth.As a result, I am more focused in doctrinal questions."Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son." - 2 John 9
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Post by Sister on Apr 29, 2019 11:43:37 GMT -5
The bride of Christ.
The bride of Christ is the church,........Christ is going to marry the men and women of his church? Is this not common doctrine? We are the highlight of this magnificent event?
So here's another one, a topic that my mentor and brother in Christ brought to my attention during one of our bible studies.....
These are his words that I considered and looked into to see if it was true.
The chosen are the invited guests, blessed is he that is invited to the wedding.
Then who is the bride? To say that we are the bride is false teaching, because of lack of knowledge. The invited can not be the bride.
The invited guests need to have the right clothing on. The groom has one bride, not many brides.
Put on your clean and white robes, that you may be invited to the wedding. The bride is "the righteousness" of the saints.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Apr 29, 2019 12:28:05 GMT -5
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband... And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God — Revelation 21:2, 9-10
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. — Ephesians 5:25-27
For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. — Ephesians 5:31-32
Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. — Revelation 19:7-9
Just as Israel was the bride in the OT, new Jerusalem is the bride now. This is presently being purified, clothed, and labored for in the Christian church. Tribulation is necessary to remove all wrinkles and blemishes. The righteousness wrought in the church is the beauty of the bride.
We as individual Christians are indeed invited to the marriage feast. We are co-heirs with Christ, adopted as children of God, not individually married to Christ.
For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. — Matthew 22:30
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Post by joseph on Apr 29, 2019 16:48:10 GMT -5
Revelation 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Jesus is coming with his reward at his return. He has a box full of goodies with him and will hand out after our journey is over. We cannot claim the prize before the race is finished. We must get to the other side first, then the reward will be given.
Isaiah 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
Labour pains must come first before the birth. All in order. But this is no ordinary birth. Zion who is the woman in Rev 12, will give birth to all her children at once....only after she has gone through final labour pains (persecutions), will her children will be born. Labour first, then delivery. This is speaking of the resurrection of the saints at Christ's coming. All will be born out of Zion, Holy Jerusalem,...born out of her womb which is God's doctrine. We are growing in her womb at the moment, being nurtured, and fed so that we can be born healthy and not stillborn. At the birth, all of us will be changed, born spirit. This is the 2nd birth for us. The first time, we came out of our mother's womb, when we were born flesh.
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
We have to be born “flesh” first by coming out of our mothers womb. We have to enter the world first this way. This has nothing to do with baptism, but is simple. The womb that carried us was full of water. The waters broke, and then we came out. This is what Christ means “born of water”. Born flesh out of our mother. Nothing to do with baptism. Just a simple procedure. Our first birth.
The second time we will be born spirit at the resurrection. It must happen in this order.
Born again means twice. Not three times.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Can you see the contrast? We are still flesh. Flesh is limited. We still get sick, we feel pain, and we still die. We are learning to understand spiritual things and changing our hearts, but cannot visibly see all that is in the kingdom of God. We cannot see God, cannot see Christ, cannot see angels, cannot see all his glory with our eyes UNTIL we are finally born of the spirit in the resurrection. Only then can we see all.
The churches say, that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit flesh.
We are still flesh. We have not got our wings yet. We cannot fly, we still die. We must finish the journey first, then we can say we are born again, born the 2nd time, not the 3rd.
Born again = born twice. First in the flesh from our mother, second time out of Zion, born spirit.
John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Jesus said Marvel not! Why are we MARVELING about this and not heeding his words? Are these words not repeated over and over and over? I met a lovely girl the other day. I asked her if she was Christian? She said yes I am a born again Christian, her husband jumped in defensively and said, four generations of my family have been attending the Anglican church. We go there.. I realised then that everybody repeats this little catch phrase no matter where they worship.
There is a renewing of the mind yes, but the change has not yet fully come.....It's coming, it will happen...but it's not here yet.
We are not yet perfected. It doesn't matter how much we cry that we are saved, and try to claim our reward now, but the truth is the reward is coming with Christ! When we find ourselves standing in that resurrection, then we can say we are born again. Because the resurrection is PROOF that we have been accepted by Christ and have received our new perfected bodies, in the same form now as Christ.
Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
This is not to take our hope away, for this is our hope and what we are walking towards. But there are many who claim they are born again and saved before the race is over, and before Christ comes with his reward. We know many will fall away when persecutions arise who are claiming they are born again.
Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Hebrews 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Hebrews 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
You cannot see spirit! We cannot see the angels. Do we see the Lord when he comes and dines with us? They come and go and we don’t even know they are there. We will be like them INVISIBLE, ….SPIRIT…..being sent where-ever. Made of a higher material, and not covered in flesh. We are not like the wind yet, not invisible. People can see us coming a mile away! Because we are not truly and finally Born Again yet.
1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
The flesh has to be changed to spirit first before it can “inherit” the kingdom of God. That is the requirement, and that change is necessary, ....without being in a part of the resurrection it is impossible.. This is when we will be truly born again! It is not just talking about the renewing of the mind, because people can fall away, this is speaking about the real thing, our change at the resurrection.
And I think this is why Christ said not to marvel that he said we must be born again, because he knew that it was going to be a catch phrase easily misunderstood. He was speaking of something much deeper, but so simple really.
False teachings red flag warning here. Very much error in doctrine or teaching. I just read this post and the one before it(or the op). Several, maybe many false teachings are obvious ('incorporated'/ all part of and-or associated with) here. I did not have time to read further in the thread, and don't know if I will later or not, to see who realizes this already.. Hopefully, the false teachings have already been brought to the light and exposed.
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Post by Sister on Apr 29, 2019 18:29:00 GMT -5
Joseph
How can the invited guests be the bride? If I am invited to attend a wedding, I am not the bride, but the guest.
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Post by Sister on Apr 29, 2019 18:50:26 GMT -5
Joseph
How can we claim our prize before the race is over? Some get tired and drop out,....some go the wrong way, and some will make it to the finish line. To say I have won already before the race is over is cheating. It doesn't mean that we give up, but keep going. Keep going till we get there. This is what the spirit of God is constantly warning us. Once we reach the other side we can claim the prize. The prize is taking part in the resurrection of the saints. Born again of spirit, not flesh. Changed. A completely new creature. Not spirit wrapped in flesh, but spirit 100%.
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Post by John on Apr 29, 2019 19:00:11 GMT -5
The Bible does say the bride of Christ is New Jerusalem. My wife heard someone say that many years ago, and mentioned it to me. My first reaction was similar to Joseph's till I looked up the scripture Candance just posted from Revelation. The city New Jerusalem is the bride of Christ. The Bible uses many illustrations about God's Kingdom, and does make references to the church being as a bride adorned for her groom, but if you take the time to look closely at what the scripture says, New Jerusalem is the bride, and the church will make up the guests.
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Post by John on Apr 29, 2019 19:34:23 GMT -5
Joseph, if you get a chance, look carefully at the scriptures from Revelation that PG4Him posted, and if you still think the church is the bride, that is fine, but those were the scriptures that convinced me we are the guests at the wedding and New Jerusalem is the bride.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Apr 29, 2019 19:44:17 GMT -5
I don’t think Joseph made it that far. He seems to have stumbled on this thread and remarked about the first controversy.
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