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Post by Sister on May 1, 2019 8:57:27 GMT -5
Joseph
How can the invited guests be the bride? If I am invited to attend a wedding, I am not the bride, but the guest.
Allegories/similitudes/parables in scripture means just what the LORD intends them to mean, nothing more and nothing less. We dont' want to overstep the mark by splicing/dicing things too finely, which can lead to us missing the simple "picture" in its wholeness that the Lord is showing. The parable of the ten virgins (5 wise) waiting for the bridegroom to go with Him to the wedding feast, as well as parables about invited wedding guests are simply allegories for the bride who is made up of many members. Sometimes the Lord speaks of the bride as a whole, in terms of being one united group (church/Israel) and other times He is alluding to the many members that make up the Bride - a bride company, so to speak. Eph 5:30-32
For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
Israel of old was an allegory for the bride...she was pictured all through scripture many times as being the wife/bride of the Lord...and Israel herself was a similitude/ensample for the church to come....the Israel of God, heavenly Zion, New Jerusalem, the kingdom of God to come. If even a loved one, or someone we highly respect or even an angel says something contrary to scripture....don't believe them....that doesn't mean anyone who is mistaken about anything at any time is anathema, but we need to always keep testing even the people we may be close to and love dearly. Isa 50:1
This is what the LORD says: “Where is your mother’s certificate of divorce with which I sent her away? Or to which of my creditors did I sell you? Because of your sins you were sold; because of your transgressions your mother was sent away.
Isa 62:5
For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee
Jer 33:11
The voice of joy, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the voice of them that shall say, Praise the LORD of hosts: for the LORD is good; for his mercy endureth for ever: and of them that shall bring the sacrifice of praise into the house of the LORD. For I will cause to return the captivity of the land, as at the first, saith the LORD.
Hos 1:2
The beginning of the word of the LORD by Hosea. And the LORD said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms: for the land hath committed great whoredom, departing from the LORD.
Hos 2:19-20
And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies.
I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the LORD.
Mat 9:15
And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast.
Jhn 3:29
He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
That's right, there are different allegories according to context, but the big event is right at the end, and not at the Coming, for there will be a thousand years of preaching, and a lot of cleaning up still to do until evil is wiped off this earth completely. When this day comes, there will be a big celebration, everyone standing there wearing the righteousness of this city which is Christ's bride. It will be so glorious and spectacular.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2019 9:26:23 GMT -5
Let’s have another look at what John said in Revelation. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God... And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God — Revelation 21:1-3, 9-10The bride is not the raptured ekklesia taken to heaven. The bride is New Jerusalem descended from God into the new earth. The wedding feast doesn’t happen when all the saints gather in heaven. It happens in the new earth when the bride is revealed. There’s nothing in Scripture that tells us to expect the marriage feast after all the saints enter heaven. Even looking at Paul’s words about Christ and the church, he didn’t tell them the wedding would happen when they entered God’s presence. I believe Noah and the ark gives us the picture....we will be "sheltered on that day" from the wrath of the Lamb, but our permanent dwelling is not somewhere "up in heaven", but rather heaven, the kingdom of God, is coming to earth (renewing the earth) and we being part of it will be here on the new earth as well....the kingdom is within/among us. So I think I agree if I'm understanding you correctly. Wedding, marriage, wedding feast are all just allegory for union with Christ...complete and full union...we dont' have to take it too literally. I'm not sure of exactly when this union place, but so far believe it happens just prior to being taken up. It is this union that 'qualifies' us to enter the wedding feast (rapture) and be sheltered from the wrath....the Holy Spirit without measure like Jesus had....extra oil...the 'balance owing' on the earnest of the Spirit. Christ in full possession of His bride, the white horse being ridden by Him, by His Spirit....the white raiment given/granted to her. Well at least those are some bits and bobs so far...always subject to further tweeking or amending as more comes to light. Maybe to be more precise, the wedding feast takes place after the union...refers to the time of the wrath...? The wedding supper doesn't seem that it is going to be a fun romantic event, the bride will be wearing army boots under her white dress: Rev 19:17-19
And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
I still have trouble with the timing of all these things, and what it will mean in real life, on the ground. Some of it still seems contradictory in my mind.....waiting for more understanding from the Lord.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on May 1, 2019 9:35:01 GMT -5
Let’s have another look at what John said in Revelation. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God... And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God — Revelation 21:1-3, 9-10The bride is not the raptured ekklesia taken to heaven. The bride is New Jerusalem descended from God into the new earth. The wedding feast doesn’t happen when all the saints gather in heaven. It happens in the new earth when the bride is revealed. There’s nothing in Scripture that tells us to expect the marriage feast after all the saints enter heaven. Even looking at Paul’s words about Christ and the church, he didn’t tell them the wedding would happen when they entered God’s presence. I believe Noah and the ark gives us the picture....we will be "sheltered on that day" from the wrath of the Lamb, but our permanent dwelling is not somewhere "up in heaven", but rather heaven, the kingdom of God, is coming to earth (renewing the earth) and we being part of it will be here on the new earth as well....the kingdom is within/among us. So I think I agree if I'm understanding you correctly. Wedding, marriage, wedding feast are all just allegory for union with Christ...complete and full union...we dont' have to take it too literally. I'm not sure of exactly when this union place, but so far believe it happens just prior to being taken up. It is this union that 'qualifies' us to enter the wedding feast (rapture) and be sheltered from the wrath....the Holy Spirit without measure like Jesus had....extra oil...the 'balance owing' on the earnest of the Spirit. Christ in full possession of His bride, the white horse being ridden by Him, by His Spirit....the white raiment given/granted to her. Well at least those are some bits and bobs so far...always subject to further tweeking or amending as more comes to light. Maybe to be more precise, the wedding feast takes place after the union...refers to the time of the wrath...? The wedding supper doesn't seem that it is going to be a fun romantic event, the bride will be wearing army boots under her white dress: Rev 19:17-19
And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
I still have trouble with the timing of all these things, and what it will mean in real life, on the ground. Some of it still seems contradictory in my mind.....waiting for more understanding from the Lord. Wait, you think the wedding feast is when birds are eating dead human bodies? I am totally lost.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on May 1, 2019 10:51:04 GMT -5
The thing about birds eating dead kings was prophesied in Ezekiel:
And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord God; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood. Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan. And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you. Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord God. And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them. — Ezekiel 39:17-21
Nature is vindicated of its servitude to fallen man when the tables are turned and man’s flesh is offered as a sacrifice to the fowls. John saw this in Revelation 19. All of Ezekiel 39 is about Revelation.
Revelation 18 ends when Mystery Babylon is no more, the saints/martyrs are brought to completion, and the the call of the bridegroom ceases on earth:
And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth. — Revelation 18:23-24
No more candle to offer light in the world, no more voice of the bride or bridegroom. The conversation is over. All who might come have come.
This is why John begins chapter 19 saying the wife has made herself ready. The works of the saints are complete. There’s no more the saints can do to make her ready. Jesus promptly destroys the earth to make way for new earth.
John tells us the wife is as ready as she will ever be, but the wife doesn’t appear in the battle. She’s hidden in heaven while Jesus cleans up the bridechamber.
Jesus mentions a wedding feast in parables, but He doesn’t say when it will be. The term does not appear in any epistles related to ekklesia or the rapture. After Jesus’ parables, we learn no more about the wedding until Revelation.
It is a total myth that rapture = wedding. It’s also a myth that the bride will be at Armaggedon.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on May 1, 2019 10:55:13 GMT -5
This is only confusing if you cling to a rapture wedding that you have to wedge into Revelation. Where did we get rapture wedding from?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2019 11:09:52 GMT -5
I believe Noah and the ark gives us the picture....we will be "sheltered on that day" from the wrath of the Lamb, but our permanent dwelling is not somewhere "up in heaven", but rather heaven, the kingdom of God, is coming to earth (renewing the earth) and we being part of it will be here on the new earth as well....the kingdom is within/among us. So I think I agree if I'm understanding you correctly. Wedding, marriage, wedding feast are all just allegory for union with Christ...complete and full union...we dont' have to take it too literally. I'm not sure of exactly when this union place, but so far believe it happens just prior to being taken up. It is this union that 'qualifies' us to enter the wedding feast (rapture) and be sheltered from the wrath....the Holy Spirit without measure like Jesus had....extra oil...the 'balance owing' on the earnest of the Spirit. Christ in full possession of His bride, the white horse being ridden by Him, by His Spirit....the white raiment given/granted to her. Well at least those are some bits and bobs so far...always subject to further tweeking or amending as more comes to light. Maybe to be more precise, the wedding feast takes place after the union...refers to the time of the wrath...? The wedding supper doesn't seem that it is going to be a fun romantic event, the bride will be wearing army boots under her white dress: Rev 19:17-19
And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
I still have trouble with the timing of all these things, and what it will mean in real life, on the ground. Some of it still seems contradictory in my mind.....waiting for more understanding from the Lord. Wait, you think the wedding feast is when birds are eating dead human bodies? I am totally lost. No I don't think it....I am only wondering if this is a picture of the wedding feast. Just putting it forward to discuss. I am wondering if the wedding feast is a spiritual battle that the Lord gathers all to....Armageddon. Pretty sure that those verse are allegorical or at least partially. Anyway I get lost in the weeds at this point, so I will say no more for now.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2019 11:14:57 GMT -5
Allegories/similitudes/parables in scripture means just what the LORD intends them to mean, nothing more and nothing less. We dont' want to overstep the mark by splicing/dicing things too finely, which can lead to us missing the simple "picture" in its wholeness that the Lord is showing. The parable of the ten virgins (5 wise) waiting for the bridegroom to go with Him to the wedding feast, as well as parables about invited wedding guests are simply allegories for the bride who is made up of many members. Sometimes the Lord speaks of the bride as a whole, in terms of being one united group (church/Israel) and other times He is alluding to the many members that make up the Bride - a bride company, so to speak. Eph 5:30-32
For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
Israel of old was an allegory for the bride...she was pictured all through scripture many times as being the wife/bride of the Lord...and Israel herself was a similitude/ensample for the church to come....the Israel of God, heavenly Zion, New Jerusalem, the kingdom of God to come. If even a loved one, or someone we highly respect or even an angel says something contrary to scripture....don't believe them....that doesn't mean anyone who is mistaken about anything at any time is anathema, but we need to always keep testing even the people we may be close to and love dearly. Isa 50:1
This is what the LORD says: “Where is your mother’s certificate of divorce with which I sent her away? Or to which of my creditors did I sell you? Because of your sins you were sold; because of your transgressions your mother was sent away.
Isa 62:5
For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee
Jer 33:11
The voice of joy, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the voice of them that shall say, Praise the LORD of hosts: for the LORD is good; for his mercy endureth for ever: and of them that shall bring the sacrifice of praise into the house of the LORD. For I will cause to return the captivity of the land, as at the first, saith the LORD.
Hos 1:2
The beginning of the word of the LORD by Hosea. And the LORD said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms: for the land hath committed great whoredom, departing from the LORD.
Hos 2:19-20
And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies.
I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the LORD.
Mat 9:15
And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast.
Jhn 3:29
He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
That's right, there are different allegories according to context, but the big event is right at the end, and not at the Coming, for there will be a thousand years of preaching, and a lot of cleaning up still to do until evil is wiped off this earth completely. When this day comes, there will be a big celebration, everyone standing there wearing the righteousness of this city which is Christ's bride. It will be so glorious and spectacular. Thanks Sister, I will try to keep the millennium in mind. It might help resolve some things. These are overwhelming things to look at, for me at least!
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Post by joseph on May 1, 2019 12:45:23 GMT -5
joseph, I don't know how that writer could say that the church is not seen in the book of Revelation. The most obvious rebuttal to that are the seven churches....."churches" in Revelation 2 is the same word ekklesia used in referring to the church all through the New Testament. But also I believe the two witnesses depict the church.....the Lord does not violate His own word, and He has said that everything must be established on the word of two or three witnesses.....he has very cleverly incorporated two witnesses into His ekklesia...one new man out of TWO...two witnesses, one Jewish, the other Gentile. WE are His witnesses/martyrs. His Spirit makes up the third witness....backing up their witness with His power. Act 5:32
And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
That's not a rebuttal - that's a mis-translation based on a serious mis-understanding. Ekklesia in the TORAH, PROPHETS, PSALMS and in HEBREWS and in the APOCALYPSE does not refer to the 'church'.
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Post by joseph on May 1, 2019 12:48:02 GMT -5
p.s. I think that it is VERY unlikely, if not actually impossible, that the two witnesses will be anyone in the 'church', or referring to the 'church', which as seen seems it has been and is decrepit today throughout most or even all of the world... except for a remnant, Yahuweh's Chosen ones, called out and set apart by Him for Himself.
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Post by joseph on May 1, 2019 13:01:06 GMT -5
Joseph, if you get a chance, look carefully at the scriptures from Revelation that PG4Him posted, and if you still think the church is the bride, that is fine, but those were the scriptures that convinced me we are the guests at the wedding and New Jerusalem is the bride.
I just located this post by search function- I don't believe the church is the bride.
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2019 13:36:44 GMT -5
p.s. I think that it is VERY unlikely, if not actually impossible, that the two witnesses will be anyone in the 'church', or referring to the 'church', which as seen seems it has been and is decrepit today throughout most or even all of the world... except for a remnant, Yahuweh's Chosen ones, called out and set apart by Him for Himself. Yes, I'm talking about the remnant, the true church....the one that Jesus said the gates of hell would not prevail against.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2019 13:43:58 GMT -5
joseph, I don't know how that writer could say that the church is not seen in the book of Revelation. The most obvious rebuttal to that are the seven churches....."churches" in Revelation 2 is the same word ekklesia used in referring to the church all through the New Testament. But also I believe the two witnesses depict the church.....the Lord does not violate His own word, and He has said that everything must be established on the word of two or three witnesses.....he has very cleverly incorporated two witnesses into His ekklesia...one new man out of TWO...two witnesses, one Jewish, the other Gentile. WE are His witnesses/martyrs. His Spirit makes up the third witness....backing up their witness with His power. Act 5:32
And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
That's not a rebuttal - that's a mis-translation based on a serious mis-understanding. Ekklesia in the TORAH, PROPHETS, PSALMS and in HEBREWS and in the APOCALYPSE does not refer to the 'church'. dear brother, don't all the saints and faithful remnant of the old testament scriptures..... belong to the church/ekklesia/Israel of God...? Heb 11:39-40 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
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Post by joseph on May 1, 2019 14:05:18 GMT -5
That's not a rebuttal - that's a mis-translation based on a serious mis-understanding. Ekklesia in the TORAH, PROPHETS, PSALMS and in HEBREWS and in the APOCALYPSE does not refer to the 'church'. dear brother, don't all the saints and faithful remnant of the old testament scriptures..... belong to the church/ekklesia/Israel of God...? Heb 11:39-40 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. No one in the TORAH, PROPHETS, PSALMS // TANAKH// OLD TESTAMENT was in the church. (though that is a common false teaching and doctrine) They are Ekklesia - Yahuweh's called out ones, called out and set apart by Him, Himself, for Himself as His Word Says. They had NO IDEA what the church would be, (nor that the pagan heathen dogs (gentiles) would be permitted !!! ), it was a secret kept from them, not revealed until Yahuweh revealed it to the Apostles and disciples, to the Jews and gentiles grafted in, as written in the NT.
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2019 14:22:25 GMT -5
dear brother, don't all the saints and faithful remnant of the old testament scriptures..... belong to the church/ekklesia/Israel of God...? Heb 11:39-40 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. No one in the TORAH, PROPHETS, PSALMS // TANAKH// OLD TESTAMENT was in the church. (though that is a common false teaching and doctrine) They are Ekklesia - Yahuweh's called out ones, called out and set apart by Him, Himself, for Himself as His Word Says. They had NO IDEA what the church would be, (nor that the pagan heathen dogs (gentiles) would be permitted !!! ), it was a secret kept from them, not revealed until Yahuweh revealed it to the Apostles and disciples, to the Jews and gentiles grafted in, as written in the NT. Yes, that mystery about the gentiles was written in the old testament, but not yet revealed. The church hadn't been born yet.....but I believe they belong to it now and will be in the first resurrection. The 'church' is the Israel of God....Jew and Gentile...we are all fellow citizens of it together....jews are it's natural branches, gentiles are unnatural branches. The intention of the Lord was always that the nation of Israel would learn these things through the Law and the Tanach (tutored) (though He knew that most would reject the gospel at first)....like David was a man after God's heart/spirit...he went beyond the letter and understood the spirit of the Law, and that is why he had grace to eat the shewbread with impunity....he understood it was only a physical representation of the heavenly/spiritual things. The problem and objection with "church" I think, is that we tend to think of it in terms of being Gentile, when it actually it is "of the Jews" while being composed of both Jew and Gentile believer.
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Post by frienduff on May 1, 2019 14:24:56 GMT -5
Church simply means body , which is THE TREE . both the old test ones who lived by faith were in it . FOR THEY SOUGHT the ONE WHO WAS TO COME . THEY already had FAITH IN CHRIST , Even though he had not yet come . It was always One TREE , ONE BODY . And Abraham was in it for he walked by faith and HE KNEW and HAD SEEN the Coming DAY of CHRIST . EVERYTHING points to CHRIST . ITS A HANDS UP CELEBRATION . EVEN the ROCK that followed them in the desert was CHRIST from which the waters flowed . That spiritual rock which was Christ . The believing jew and believing gentile , ARE THE BRIDE and we await HIS COMING . Paul knew it too . the church he wrote too was both jew and gentile believers . And look what he says about marriage . Yall , see as the lens of a small child and JESUS IS the ALL IN ALL , wherein dwells all hope .
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