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Post by Giller on Feb 10, 2019 9:57:45 GMT -5
Rom 12:6 (6) Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
This is an indwelling gift of prophecy.
Gal 5:6 (6) For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Feb 10, 2019 9:59:19 GMT -5
But I will harden Pharaoh's heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt. — Exodus 7:3
Pharoah was under God’s influence when he treated the Hebrews harshly. That’s the only point I was making in regard to Exodus. I wasn’t saying pharoah did any miracles. The Hebrews accused Moses of making things worse when pharaoh took away their straw — yet it happened precisely because of God’s hand. When we assume that wicked/godless leaders are acting outside of God’s influence, we are often assuming wrong.
No one ever wants to believe that God would author “confusion” in the midst of a greater work.
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Post by Giller on Feb 10, 2019 10:02:44 GMT -5
But I will harden Pharaoh's heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt. — Exodus 7:3 Pharoah was under God’s influence when he treated the Hebrews harshly. That’s the only point I was making in regard to Exodus. I wasn’t saying pharoah did any miracles. The Hebrews accused Moses of making things worse when pharaoh took away their straw — yet it happened precisely because of God’s hand. When we assume that wicked/godless leaders are acting outside of God’s influence, we are often assuming wrong. No one ever wants to believe that God would author “confusion” in the midst of a greater work. Ya God does use unbelieving leaders in some fashion at times that is true. He even calls them his ministers, after a certain manner.
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Post by Giller on Feb 10, 2019 10:07:02 GMT -5
And yes God did harden pharaoh's heart, that is true, but also another scripture shows that pharaoh hardened his own heart.
And of course, which I think you would agree, that God will only harden a heart that is already hardened, and of course the bible says that God resisteth the proud but giveth grace to the humble.
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Post by John on Feb 10, 2019 11:49:52 GMT -5
And yes God did harden pharaoh's heart, that is true, but also another scripture shows that pharaoh hardened his own heart. And of course, which I think you would agree, that God will only harden a heart that is already hardened, and of course the bible says that God resisteth the proud but giveth grace to the humble. Why would God need to harden an already hard heart?
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Post by Giller on Feb 11, 2019 10:25:31 GMT -5
And yes God did harden pharaoh's heart, that is true, but also another scripture shows that pharaoh hardened his own heart. And of course, which I think you would agree, that God will only harden a heart that is already hardened, and of course the bible says that God resisteth the proud but giveth grace to the humble. Why would God need to harden an already hard heart?
A already hardened heart can be hardened even further, and he does not harden a humble heart for that is contrary to other scriptures. And also here is another scripture to ponder upon: 2Th 2:10-12 (10) And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. (11) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: (12) That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
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Post by John on Feb 11, 2019 10:32:57 GMT -5
Why would God need to harden an already hard heart?
A already hardened heart can be hardened even further, and he does not harden a humble heart for that is contrary to other scriptures. And also here is another scripture to ponder upon: 2Th 2:10-12 (10) And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. (11) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: (12) That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. I see your point. There had to be some degree of hardness already.
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Post by Giller on Feb 11, 2019 11:34:43 GMT -5
Deu 13:1-4
(1) If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
(2) And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
(3) Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
(4) Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
Here are comments, on the part that says the Lord your God proveth you:
(Jimmy Swaggart)
(The Lord allows false preachers and false teachers to succeed for a while, in order to test his people, To be sure, He already knows what his people will do, or won't do. The test is for our benefit.)
(Joseph Benson)
(...For the Lord your God proveth you — That is, trieth your faith, love, and obedience, and examineth your sincerity by your constancy in his service, in opposition to all temptations to desert it....)
Now would the Lord use his own signs and wonders in order to deceive people, so to test their faith?
1Co 14:33 (33) For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
He is not the author of confusion I believe in any way.
Now sometimes God does things in such a way that it can confound certain people, and it is very possible that his signs and wonders in Egypt may have confounded the Egyptians in some way, which God was showing his power, and really showing them that the Egyptian God was not the true God, and he was.
He was showing then the right way, which would have turn the thoughts of the Egyptians inside and out.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Feb 11, 2019 11:46:39 GMT -5
Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee. — 1 Kings 22:23
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie — 2 Thessalonians 2:11
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction — Romans 9:18-22
Dishonorable vessels fitted for destruction are hardened, deceived, and given to reprobation for God’s greater purposes to display His wondrous works and satisfy His wrath. No one wants to believe this, but it’s too well documented all throughout Scripture.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Feb 11, 2019 11:52:54 GMT -5
Here’s another:
Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me. And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate, And the Lord have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land. — Isaiah 6:8-12
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Post by John on Feb 11, 2019 11:56:55 GMT -5
Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee. — 1 Kings 22:23
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie — 2 Thessalonians 2:11
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction — Romans 9:18-22Dishonorable vessels fitted for destruction are hardened, deceived, and given to reprobation for God’s greater purposes to display His wondrous works and satisfy His wrath. No one wants to believe this, but it’s too well documented all throughout Scripture. You are right. I didn't want to believe it either and stayed in denial, till about 2011 when the truth was revealed to me as I sought the Lord.
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Post by Giller on Feb 11, 2019 12:50:24 GMT -5
God does have his purposes in what he does but it never contradicts other scriptures.
He hardens whom he hardens, and has mercy upon who he has mercy, but it is never to were it contradicts other scriptures, for the bible also says this:
Psa 51:17 (17) The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
Mat 5:7 (7) Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
Jas 4:6 (6) But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
It must be according to sound doctrine, and the scriptures say to compare scriptures with scriptures.
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Post by Giller on Feb 11, 2019 12:51:53 GMT -5
And yes I can agree with this saying itself:
Dishonorable vessels fitted for destruction are hardened, deceived, and given to reprobation for God’s greater purposes to display His wondrous works and satisfy His wrath. No one wants to believe this, but it’s too well documented all throughout Scripture.
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Post by Giller on Feb 11, 2019 13:05:38 GMT -5
And of course God's justice prevents him from doing something that is unjust.
God is pure and just, and never unjust.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Feb 11, 2019 13:13:22 GMT -5
Don’t mis-understand me here. I’m not saying an humble God-fearing person would randomly be chosen for destruction just because God said so. Those who seek Him can take comfort in knowing they will find Him. Those who’ve rejected Him — or would fold like a cheap lawn chair in the first trial — will be sifted as chaff. When God’s cup of wrath is filled, He will blind and harden His enemies in preparation of the coming judgment.
Remember we even have this in the NT:
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. — Galatians 1:8
How many Christians would stray from the truth if an “angel from heaven” persuaded them? How many would compromise if a “prophet” told them it was okay to sin? God is looking for people who cling to the truth so much that nothing can distract them. We can say Paul made that comment rhetorically, but it’s an awfully bold comment. Can anything talk us out of the truth? Can anything distract us? God will test each of us.
We can debate whether God directly exalts a deceiver or whether He passively “allows” a deceiver to work through Satan, but it’s splitting a fine hair.
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