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Post by John on Feb 11, 2019 11:29:55 GMT -5
We have another thread ongoing where the question came up over whether or not to cover up other's iniquities or expose them. I felt like the arguments being made were out of context, using scriptures that had nothing to do with the issue, but rather than ignore the topic, I thought it best to deal with it head on. We need to be looking into the whole counsel of the Word of God. These are the only scriptures I am aware of that actually address the topic, and we must figure out how to correctly apply them.
A talebearer revealeth secrets: but he that is of a faithful spirit concealeth the matter. Proverbs 11:13
The word of a talebearer are as wound, and they go down into the innermost parts of the belly. Proverbs 18:8
He that goeth about as a talebearer revealeth secrets: therefore meddle not with him that flattereth with his lips. Proverbs 20:19
Where no wood is, there the fire goeth out: so where there is no talebearer, the strife ceaseth. Proverbs 26:20
Is there ever a time to reveal secrets? I have already shown that Jesus exposed the religious leaders of his day, and Paul exposed John Mark for leaving the work, and openly exposed others for serious matters. He exposed the corruption in the church at Corinth. He even openly rebuked and exposed Peter when he had a fault. Still, we have these verses from Proverbs. They actually do deal with the topic of being a talebearer.
There are two times where Paul names the faults of people that were sincere Christians. One is John Mark, and the other is the Apostle Peter. These issues could have been dealt with quietly, but Paul made a big deal of them. It appears that in both cases, they came around and were the better for the correction and public rebukes. But was Paul being a talebearer?
Another matter to consider. Should we spend our time exposing false teachers, or should we just give the true doctrine, and warn of false doctrines without mentioning names? One more scripture to consider...
Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbor: I am the LORD. Leviticus 19:15
This one is interesting because the Law of Moses requires people to expose those that are trying to entice people to commit idolatry, those that curse God, a number of things. They are told they have no choice, so they can't cover up those sins, yet they are told here not to "go up and down as a talebearer among thy people."
These are all serious questions we have to consider, so everyone's opinion is welcome.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Feb 11, 2019 12:18:27 GMT -5
There’s also this from the NT:
And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not — 1 Timothy 5:13
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Post by 2fw8212a on Feb 11, 2019 12:40:15 GMT -5
These are all serious questions we have to consider, so everyone's opinion is welcome.
This is a complex matter, and a matter of faith.
Analyze for yourselves and see the benefits your acts will bring.
"let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins." - James 5:20
There are times to speak, there are times to remain silent.
"Whatever I tell you in the dark, speak in the light; and what you hear in the ear, preach on the housetops." - Matthew 10:27
There are people who have good intentions, but they are lost and blind. In this case a gentle warn can be applied:
"Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother." - Matthew 18:15
But they may insist on the error, then more serious measures may be taken:
"But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established." - Matthew 18:16
And if they refuse to hear, they are stubborn, let them go...
But do not treat them as enemy, but do not approve their wrong choices as well:
"Yet do not count him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother." - 2 Thessalonians 3:15
"And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them." - Ephesians 5:11
I believe we must not go on and speak evil of people like: That man does this and that (in a random manner)...
"For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places." - Ephesians 6:12
And obviously, in such cases this is always helpful:
"...whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets." - Matthew 7:12
Blessings in Jesus' name!
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Feb 11, 2019 12:45:05 GMT -5
Here are a few things I would keep in mind about unflattering personal accounts in Scripture...
Peter, Paul, Barnabas, Mark, and the others were public figures. Peter’s behavior at that dinner party was a matter of public policy for the church. If Paul had corrected him in private without touching on it publicly, those Gentiles would have left the party feeling hurt, and the damage would have been done. Even if Peter had apologized later, it likely would have cost him a few lambs. There are cases when a minister must be held to a higher standard because his actions have public consequences. There was nothing Paul wrote about the incident that wasn’t already public knowledge.
Same with the pharisees Jesus confronted. They were powerful government leaders who were destroying thousands of lives.
Acts mentions the dispute between Paul and Barnabas mostly to explain how they ended up in different places with different associates. It was a matter of logistics. You’ll notice we aren’t told what the dispute was about nor which person was in the wrong. It’s just a footnote to explain their separation. Same with Alexander and the others. We see why they’re no longer involved in Paul’s work, but we don’t know what they did.
Paul confronted the adulterer at Corinth, but notice we aren’t told his name, and Paul didn’t go on a rant about all of the man’s sundry faults. He stated a fact about one action of an anonymous church member.
In other examples we see of private citizens, there’s a lesson to be learned from them. We are not told about people’s mistakes just so we can point and laugh. We are told to look upon others in a spirit of meekness and compassion lest we fall for the same temptation. These are object lessons, not funny stories.
When I consider divulging bad information about someone, I ask myself two questions:
1) What purpose will be served by me telling this? Does it have any value? Does it help anyone?
2) How much information do I need to share to get the point across?
As for exposing people like the pope, this is why I’m so opposed to trashy amateur YouTube videos. We shouldn’t rush out to share a bunch of half-truth innuendo just because it confirms what we already think. If we’re seriously trying to save/convert vulnerable lambs, and then they discover we’re shoving dishonest gossip on them, they will turn away from us. Expose what needs to be exposed in the most careful, responsible, and thoughtul way you can.
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Post by John on Feb 11, 2019 13:27:47 GMT -5
We do know what the dispute was over with John Mark.
And when they were at Salamis, they preached the Word of God in the synagogues of the Jews: and they had also John to their minister. Acts 13:5
Now when Paul and his company loosed from Paphos, they came to Perga in Pamphylia: and John departing from them returned to Jerusalem. Acts 13:13
And some days after Paul said unto Barnabas, Let us go again and visit our brethren in every city where we have preached the word of the Lord, and see how they do. And Barnabas determined to take with them John, whose surname was Mark. But Paul thought not good to take him with them, who departed from them in Pamphylia, and went not with them to the work. And the contention was so sharp between them, that they departed asunder one from the other: and so Barnabas took Mark, and sailed unto Cyprus; And Paul chose Silas, and departed, being recommended by the brethren unto the grace of God. Acts 15:36-40
I am sure everyone that reads this forms some kind of opinion of John Mark based on this, as well as the dispute between Paul and Barnabas and who was right and who was wrong. You can't help but do that.
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Cletus
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Post by Cletus on Feb 11, 2019 13:31:37 GMT -5
i think a talebearer is someone who is saying things thats not needed to be said. if someones actions will be the downfall of someones walk then we should expose it. if its something small that we can go to them or go to two or three witnesses and handle it quietly then we should. but blabbing others business and making it public isnt good. basically will our words be life or not. its how i see it. gossiping is not good, but exposing false teaching so others do not stumble is good.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Feb 11, 2019 13:35:59 GMT -5
We do know what the dispute was over with John Mark.
And when they were at Salamis, they preached the Word of God in the synagogues of the Jews: and they had also John to their minister. Acts 13:5
Now when Paul and his company loosed from Paphos, they came to Perga in Pamphylia: and John departing from them returned to Jerusalem. Acts 13:13
And some days after Paul said unto Barnabas, Let us go again and visit our brethren in every city where we have preached the word of the Lord, and see how they do. And Barnabas determined to take with them John, whose surname was Mark. But Paul thought not good to take him with them, who departed from them in Pamphylia, and went not with them to the work. And the contention was so sharp between them, that they departed asunder one from the other: and so Barnabas took Mark, and sailed unto Cyprus; And Paul chose Silas, and departed, being recommended by the brethren unto the grace of God. Acts 15:36-40
I am sure everyone that reads this forms some kind of opinion of John Mark based on this, as well as the dispute between Paul and Barnabas and who was right and who was wrong. You can't help but do that.
Why had Mark departed from them? Because he was meant to be used somewhere else and he wasn’t necessarily supposed to be with Paul? Was Mark lazy or just called in a different direction? We don’t really know. Acts doesn’t tell us whether or not Paul was right. Anyway, I should probably drop this subject for now.
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Post by John on Feb 11, 2019 13:52:41 GMT -5
We do know what the dispute was over with John Mark.
And when they were at Salamis, they preached the Word of God in the synagogues of the Jews: and they had also John to their minister. Acts 13:5
Now when Paul and his company loosed from Paphos, they came to Perga in Pamphylia: and John departing from them returned to Jerusalem. Acts 13:13
And some days after Paul said unto Barnabas, Let us go again and visit our brethren in every city where we have preached the word of the Lord, and see how they do. And Barnabas determined to take with them John, whose surname was Mark. But Paul thought not good to take him with them, who departed from them in Pamphylia, and went not with them to the work. And the contention was so sharp between them, that they departed asunder one from the other: and so Barnabas took Mark, and sailed unto Cyprus; And Paul chose Silas, and departed, being recommended by the brethren unto the grace of God. Acts 15:36-40
I am sure everyone that reads this forms some kind of opinion of John Mark based on this, as well as the dispute between Paul and Barnabas and who was right and who was wrong. You can't help but do that.
Why had Mark departed from them? Because he was meant to be used somewhere else and he wasn’t necessarily supposed to be with Paul? Was Mark lazy or just called in a different direction? We don’t really know. Acts doesn’t tell us whether or not Paul was right. Anyway, I should probably drop this subject for now. That is why I said we will all form our own opinions. Paul didn't see it as a good reason, based on how he behaved. It comes across like he just wanted to go home when things got hard. On the other hand, I have always thought Paul was too hard on him. Why not take him along? Even if he left again, he still had Barnabas.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Feb 11, 2019 13:54:49 GMT -5
This doesn’t get us any closer to defining a talebearer.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Feb 11, 2019 14:01:29 GMT -5
I never took that passage to mean Mark went home when things got hard. It’s pure speculation to insert those words. Mark departed from them and *their* work. Where did he go? We have no idea. Maybe he went to Jerusalem to help Peter’s work. Maybe he went to Ireland to try to start a new ministry. Paul didn’t want Mark to revisit churches he hadn’t planted. Mark didn’t know those people, didn’t know each church’s needs, and would have been a stranger. That’s all we know. I don’t think it’s fair to assume Mark was “lazy” based on that passage.
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Post by John on Feb 11, 2019 14:30:05 GMT -5
This doesn’t get us any closer to defining a talebearer. I don't know if there is a definitive answer we will all agree on, but I tend to think it is along the line of gossip, telling half truths just for the sake of a good story.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Feb 11, 2019 14:50:15 GMT -5
I would offer this:
He that covereth a transgression seeketh love; but he that repeateth a matter separateth very friends. —Proverbs 17:11
Even when a transgression really happens, it doesn’t always need to be repeated. Telling a true story in an unnecessary way is still being a tattle-tale.
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Post by John on Feb 11, 2019 14:59:26 GMT -5
I would offer this: He that covereth a transgression seeketh love; but he that repeateth a matter separateth very friends. —Proverbs 17:11
Even when a transgression really happens, it doesn’t always need to be repeated. Telling a true story in an unnecessary way is still being a tattle-tale. Then we are back to John Mark and Peter. Paul may have rebuked Peter openly for a reason, but he repeats it in his letter. That was after the fact.
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Post by John on Feb 11, 2019 15:26:04 GMT -5
More criticisms by Paul...
For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica, Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia. 2 Timothy 4:9.
Interestingly enough, Paul references a man named Mark in the next verse that he says is profitable to him. Many believe that to be the same John Mark he criticized and fell out with Barnabas over.
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Post by frienduff on Feb 11, 2019 20:08:26 GMT -5
This doesn’t get us any closer to defining a talebearer. I don't know if there is a definitive answer we will all agree on, but I tend to think it is along the line of gossip, telling half truths just for the sake of a good story.
IF one does me wrong , I take it to the person who did me wrong , if he repents we forgive . END OF STORY and no one else needs to know it . A talebearer is one who just yacks about the evil folks do , JUST for the sake of yaking . they gossip . A corrector will rebuke . but he does it according to the pattern JESUS set and the apostels set . In the case of any false prophet . I AM GONNA EXPOSE IT till the cows come home . Cause false ones need to be fled from . One who just gossips and slanders , IS THE TALEBEARER . for the talebearer if they truly loved the one who either did them wrong would take it to THAT PERSON , and why , IN HOPES the repent . A talebearer has not love for any other than they own self . A rebuke loves , for he desires none to perish . ITS TRULY what the heart is on .
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