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Post by frienduff on Feb 11, 2019 20:10:46 GMT -5
More criticisms by Paul...
For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica, Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia. 2 Timothy 4:9.
Interestingly enough, Paul references a man named Mark in the next verse that he says is profitable to him. Many believe that to be the same John Mark he criticized and fell out with Barnabas over.
Butero , this is something . Because over the years as I read this , I just assumed this as well too. That it was this john mark .
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Post by John on Feb 11, 2019 20:17:32 GMT -5
More criticisms by Paul...
For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica, Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia. 2 Timothy 4:9.
Interestingly enough, Paul references a man named Mark in the next verse that he says is profitable to him. Many believe that to be the same John Mark he criticized and fell out with Barnabas over.
Butero , this is something . Because over the years as I read this , I just assumed this as well too. That it was this john mark .
I will tell you something else that I found interesting. This same Demas that Paul criticizes here for "having loved this present world," was lifted up by Paul in a couple of his other epistles.
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Post by frienduff on Feb 12, 2019 0:33:43 GMT -5
Butero , this is something . Because over the years as I read this , I just assumed this as well too. That it was this john mark .
I will tell you something else that I found interesting. This same Demas that Paul criticizes here for "having loved this present world," was lifted up by Paul in a couple of his other epistles.
Exhort one another daily ....................... They didn't write all those reminders for no reason . Peter did not say , BEWARE lest you too BRETHREN be led astray with the error of the WICKED and fall from your own steadfastness. Peter didn't invent a proverb about the dog returning to its vomit, cause I read that proverb. And he used it to show this can happen for a reason . Wont no one be receiving any crowns on the DAY of the LORD if they don't remain in HIM to the end . Let us only exhort more and more and so much , BECAUSE WE DO SEE THE DAY APPROACHING .
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Post by justinadams on Feb 12, 2019 6:41:42 GMT -5
This doesn’t get us any closer to defining a talebearer. I don't know if there is a definitive answer we will all agree on, but I tend to think it is along the line of gossip, telling half truths just for the sake of a good story.
As previously stated, uncovering someone's sin is similar to uncovering their nakedness. Letting the world know the gory details is paramount in our society. Politics is rife with it. It is aimed at bringing down a person and it has not changed. Defamation over a sin is a way of one-up-man-ship that many are guilty of. We mainline on the sodomy stuff and the thievery and sexual sins, but forget the gossip which is listed in the same list as the others, so is of equal importance. Shaming others is STRONGLY mentioned in scripture and seems more or less to be God's prerogative. Resisting evil is not the same as deriding someone because they act in a certain way. Covering another's sin is the way we should go - NO, not agreeing with it, but letting the Lord have His Space to deal with it. In marriage, it is of great importance and there are many words of advice concerning this. If you hang out the dirty laundry of your fellows (wife, husband, friends) in public, the devil likes this. Our prayers are hindered when we do this... Gossiping and being a busybody is very harmful. That is what the apostles said anyway... I see this as being akin to a critical spirit. Thus it is deception and cannot be detected except by someone else. If the 'someone else' mentions this possibility, then we are immediately up in arms. That should be the litmus test for us all.
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Post by John on Feb 12, 2019 7:26:31 GMT -5
I don't know if there is a definitive answer we will all agree on, but I tend to think it is along the line of gossip, telling half truths just for the sake of a good story.
As previously stated, uncovering someone's sin is similar to uncovering their nakedness. Letting the world know the gory details is paramount in our society. Politics is rife with it. It is aimed at bringing down a person and it has not changed. Defamation over a sin is a way of one-up-man-ship that many are guilty of. We mainline on the sodomy stuff and the thievery and sexual sins, but forget the gossip which is listed in the same list as the others, so is of equal importance. Shaming others is STRONGLY mentioned in scripture and seems more or less to be God's prerogative. Resisting evil is not the same as deriding someone because they act in a certain way. Covering another's sin is the way we should go - NO, not agreeing with it, but letting the Lord have His Space to deal with it. In marriage, it is of great importance and there are many words of advice concerning this. If you hang out the dirty laundry of your fellows (wife, husband, friends) in public, the devil likes this. Our prayers are hindered when we do this... Gossiping and being a busybody is very harmful. That is what the apostles said anyway... I see this as being akin to a critical spirit. Thus it is deception and cannot be detected except by someone else. If the 'someone else' mentions this possibility, then we are immediately up in arms. That should be the litmus test for us all. You made the claim that scriptures talking about uncovering one's nakedness applies here, and I disagreed then, and still do. You used those scriptures completely out of context. Defamation requires something to be untrue. If the matter being exposed is true, that doesn't apply. Sometimes, when a person is doing evil and harming people in the process, they need to be brought down. Their evil organizations should be destroyed. God often raises up people to be his instruments of destruction. The word gossip is never mentioned in scripture, so our ideas of what is gossip is not relevant here. You need to back up what you are saying with scriptures in context, and show how they apply, which you have failed to do. All you are doing is espousing your personal feelings and philosophies, and trying to take scripture that has nothing to do with it to back it up.
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Post by John on Feb 12, 2019 7:38:09 GMT -5
Just to make it clear, I am not defending exposing people for personal struggles, when they are trying to live right, or organizations that were bad but reformed. I am defending exposing unrepentant on-going evil.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Feb 12, 2019 9:17:25 GMT -5
...I am defending exposing unrepentant on-going evil.
In this case, it is a matter of security... I believe we must alert people of that.
"One of them, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.”" - Titus 1:12
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Post by justinadams on Feb 13, 2019 5:57:59 GMT -5
As previously stated, uncovering someone's sin is similar to uncovering their nakedness. Letting the world know the gory details is paramount in our society. Politics is rife with it. It is aimed at bringing down a person and it has not changed. Defamation over a sin is a way of one-up-man-ship that many are guilty of. We mainline on the sodomy stuff and the thievery and sexual sins, but forget the gossip which is listed in the same list as the others, so is of equal importance. Shaming others is STRONGLY mentioned in scripture and seems more or less to be God's prerogative. Resisting evil is not the same as deriding someone because they act in a certain way. Covering another's sin is the way we should go - NO, not agreeing with it, but letting the Lord have His Space to deal with it. In marriage, it is of great importance and there are many words of advice concerning this. If you hang out the dirty laundry of your fellows (wife, husband, friends) in public, the devil likes this. Our prayers are hindered when we do this... Gossiping and being a busybody is very harmful. That is what the apostles said anyway... I see this as being akin to a critical spirit. Thus it is deception and cannot be detected except by someone else. If the 'someone else' mentions this possibility, then we are immediately up in arms. That should be the litmus test for us all. You made the claim that scriptures talking about uncovering one's nakedness applies here, and I disagreed then, and still do. You used those scriptures completely out of context. Defamation requires something to be untrue. If the matter being exposed is true, that doesn't apply. Sometimes, when a person is doing evil and harming people in the process, they need to be brought down. Their evil organizations should be destroyed. God often raises up people to be his instruments of destruction. The word gossip is never mentioned in scripture, so our ideas of what is gossip is not relevant here. You need to back up what you are saying with scriptures in context, and show how they apply, which you have failed to do. All you are doing is espousing your personal feelings and philosophies, and trying to take scripture that has nothing to do with it to back it up.
2 Corinthians 12:20 20 For I am afraid that when I come I may not find you as I want you to be, and you may not find me as you want me to be. I fear that there may be discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, slander, gossip, arrogance and disorder. Ephesians 4:29 29 Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. Exodus 23:1 1 “Do not spread false reports. Do not help a guilty person by being a malicious witness. James 1:26 26 Those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless. James 4:11 11 Brothers and sisters, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against a brother or sister or judges them speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. Leviticus 19:16 16 “ ‘Do not go about spreading slander among your people. “ ‘Do not do anything that endangers your neighbor’s life. I am the LORD. Proverbs 10:18 18 Whoever conceals hatred with lying lips and spreads slander is a fool. Proverbs 10:19 19 Sin is not ended by multiplying words, but the prudent hold their tongues. Proverbs 11:9 9 With their mouths the godless destroy their neighbors, but through knowledge the righteous escape. Proverbs 11:13 13 A gossip betrays a confidence, but a trustworthy person keeps a secret. Proverbs 16:28 28 A perverse person stirs up conflict, and a gossip separates close friends. Proverbs 17:9 9 Whoever would foster love covers over an offense, but whoever repeats the matter separates close friends. Proverbs 18:8 8 The words of a gossip are like choice morsels; they go down to the inmost parts. Proverbs 18:21 21 The tongue has the power of life and death, and those who love it will eat its fruit. Proverbs 20:19 19 A gossip betrays a confidence; so avoid anyone who talks too much. Proverbs 26:20 20 Without wood a fire goes out; without a gossip a quarrel dies down. Psalm 34:13 13 keep your tongue from evil and your lips from telling lies. Psalm 41:7 7 All my enemies whisper together against me; they imagine the worst for me, saying, Psalm 141:3 3 Set a guard over my mouth, LORD; keep watch over the door of my lips. Proverbs 18:6-7 6 The lips of fools bring them strife, and their mouths invite a beating. 7 The mouths of fools are their undoing, and their lips are a snare to their very lives. 1 Timothy 5:13-14 13 Besides, they get into the habit of being idle and going about from house to house. And not only do they become idlers, but also busybodies who talk nonsense, saying things they ought not to. 14 So I counsel younger widows to marry, to have children, to manage their homes and to give the enemy no opportunity for slander. 1 Timothy 3:9-11 9 They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons. 11 In the same way, the women are to be worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything. Proverbs 26:20-22 20 Without wood a fire goes out; without a gossip a quarrel dies down. 21 As charcoal to embers and as wood to fire, so is a quarrelsome person for kindling strife. 22 The words of a gossip are like choice morsels; they go down to the inmost parts. Romans 1:29-32 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them. Titus 2:2-5 2 Teach the older men to be temperate, worthy of respect, self-controlled, and sound in faith, in love and in endurance. 3 Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good. 4 Then they can urge the younger women to love their husbands and children, 5 to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God. Romans 1:28-32 28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
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Post by John on Feb 13, 2019 6:39:53 GMT -5
You made the claim that scriptures talking about uncovering one's nakedness applies here, and I disagreed then, and still do. You used those scriptures completely out of context. Defamation requires something to be untrue. If the matter being exposed is true, that doesn't apply. Sometimes, when a person is doing evil and harming people in the process, they need to be brought down. Their evil organizations should be destroyed. God often raises up people to be his instruments of destruction. The word gossip is never mentioned in scripture, so our ideas of what is gossip is not relevant here. You need to back up what you are saying with scriptures in context, and show how they apply, which you have failed to do. All you are doing is espousing your personal feelings and philosophies, and trying to take scripture that has nothing to do with it to back it up.
2 Corinthians 12:20 20 For I am afraid that when I come I may not find you as I want you to be, and you may not find me as you want me to be. I fear that there may be discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, slander, gossip, arrogance and disorder. Ephesians 4:29 29 Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. Exodus 23:1 1 “Do not spread false reports. Do not help a guilty person by being a malicious witness. James 1:26 26 Those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless. James 4:11 11 Brothers and sisters, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against a brother or sister or judges them speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. Leviticus 19:16 16 “ ‘Do not go about spreading slander among your people. “ ‘Do not do anything that endangers your neighbor’s life. I am the LORD. Proverbs 10:18 18 Whoever conceals hatred with lying lips and spreads slander is a fool. Proverbs 10:19 19 Sin is not ended by multiplying words, but the prudent hold their tongues. Proverbs 11:9 9 With their mouths the godless destroy their neighbors, but through knowledge the righteous escape. Proverbs 11:13 13 A gossip betrays a confidence, but a trustworthy person keeps a secret. Proverbs 16:28 28 A perverse person stirs up conflict, and a gossip separates close friends. Proverbs 17:9 9 Whoever would foster love covers over an offense, but whoever repeats the matter separates close friends. Proverbs 18:8 8 The words of a gossip are like choice morsels; they go down to the inmost parts. Proverbs 18:21 21 The tongue has the power of life and death, and those who love it will eat its fruit. Proverbs 20:19 19 A gossip betrays a confidence; so avoid anyone who talks too much. Proverbs 26:20 20 Without wood a fire goes out; without a gossip a quarrel dies down. Psalm 34:13 13 keep your tongue from evil and your lips from telling lies. Psalm 41:7 7 All my enemies whisper together against me; they imagine the worst for me, saying, Psalm 141:3 3 Set a guard over my mouth, LORD; keep watch over the door of my lips. Proverbs 18:6-7 6 The lips of fools bring them strife, and their mouths invite a beating. 7 The mouths of fools are their undoing, and their lips are a snare to their very lives. 1 Timothy 5:13-14 13 Besides, they get into the habit of being idle and going about from house to house. And not only do they become idlers, but also busybodies who talk nonsense, saying things they ought not to. 14 So I counsel younger widows to marry, to have children, to manage their homes and to give the enemy no opportunity for slander. 1 Timothy 3:9-11 9 They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons. 11 In the same way, the women are to be worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything. Proverbs 26:20-22 20 Without wood a fire goes out; without a gossip a quarrel dies down. 21 As charcoal to embers and as wood to fire, so is a quarrelsome person for kindling strife. 22 The words of a gossip are like choice morsels; they go down to the inmost parts. Romans 1:29-32 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them. Titus 2:2-5 2 Teach the older men to be temperate, worthy of respect, self-controlled, and sound in faith, in love and in endurance. 3 Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good. 4 Then they can urge the younger women to love their husbands and children, 5 to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God. Romans 1:28-32 28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them. Unless you can show me the word gossip in an authorized King James Bible, I don't recognize it.
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Post by John on Feb 13, 2019 7:38:24 GMT -5
A post had to be removed because it was a word for word copy of someone else's material, but didn't give credit to the author. You can post things like that, so long as you give credit to the author.
So there is no confusion going forward, if I tell you a word doesn't appear in the Bible, I am always speaking of the Authorized King James Version Bible, as that is all I ever use or recognize. I am not talking about any translation or paraphrase that has been written. You can post from other translations, but I measure all by the Authorized King James Bible, and if you are going to try to prove I made a mistake about a word not appearing in the Bible, you must show it in an Authorized King James Version Bible to show I was wrong. If you can do that, I will admit to the mistake. When I said the word gossip does not appear in the Bible, I was speaking of the Authorized King James Bible.
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Post by John on Feb 13, 2019 8:12:52 GMT -5
We know from scripture that Paul named people and spoke about them in a negative way. He did that with regard to Demas, John Mark and even the Apostle Peter. We know Jesus spoke out against the religious leaders. As such, we have evidence that speaking out against the sinful actions of others can be acceptable. As a matter of fact, one person here has spoken quite a bit about bad things regarding his ex-wife. Some would call that gossip.
I do not think the line is that clear as to what is allowed and what is not, and when we cross the line into being a talebearer. One thing to consider. If a person isn't going around sinning against others, the things being said about them will all be false, and discredited. Some may believe them, but only the kind of person that accepts any bad thing someone says because they want to. An example would be some things I have seen written about another message board and it's staff that I knew were lies, like one person having multiple identities, and telling us who they are. In many cases, I knew the charges were made up, and the person had no knowledge. On the other hand, if someone came forth with true charges, and the person running said message board was guilty, rather than focusing on the one exposing it, I would like to know about the guilt of the person involved, and did they make things right?
Many issues can be resolved without conflict, but sometimes they cannot be, but if you are going to wrong someone, it can come back to bite you hard, in ways you never thought of. The internet is a huge place, with all kinds of outlets to expose evil. There are consumer sights, word of mouth, even places like YouTube where people can discuss things. I only know about one person's ex-wife because of things he has said about her, like her flat earth beliefs and the way she did him wrong. Was it wrong to tell us those secrets? The Lord can decide, but which is worse, revealing what she did, or her transgressions?
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PG4Him
Senior Member
Essay Moderator
Posts: 3,570
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Post by PG4Him on Feb 13, 2019 8:44:09 GMT -5
I always thought tale-bearing meant the same thing as gossip, but apparently I was wrong.
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PG4Him
Senior Member
Essay Moderator
Posts: 3,570
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Post by PG4Him on Feb 13, 2019 8:45:13 GMT -5
There’s about to be a chill descending on this forum.
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Post by John on Feb 13, 2019 9:02:58 GMT -5
I always thought tale-bearing meant the same thing as gossip, but apparently I was wrong. It is. I said that earlier. I said the word gossip isn't in the Bible, and Justin tried to prove it was. To me, a talebearer is a type of gossip, but the question is over where do we draw the line? Is calling your ex-wife a crisis queen being a talebearer? There is an agenda behind all of this, which is why I am handling things in the manner I am. I am sending a message. This isn't just a simple doctrinal discussion.
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Post by John on Feb 13, 2019 9:05:11 GMT -5
There’s about to be a chill descending on this forum. In regard to this topic there is.
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