PG4Him
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Feb 16, 2019 11:19:29 GMT -5
Post by PG4Him on Feb 16, 2019 11:19:29 GMT -5
As for knowing how to best an opponent, the NT is full of language about soldiers, wrestlers, sprinters, and boxers. Of course the Christian walk is a spiritual endeavor not really played out in an auditorium — but we can’t pretend it isn’t portrayed in competitive terms. We have an enemy we need to outmaneuver. We have battles we need to win. Not against flesh and blood, but against an enemy indeed.
Competitive sports don’t have to be played just for the shallow purpose of embarrassing an opponent. If a sport such as basketball teaches us problem solving, strategy, anticipating attacks, mental endurance, and doing your best — and two people can joyfully partake without getting emotional about it — this can be a great thing.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Feb 16, 2019 11:22:07 GMT -5
...It isn’t a sin to be better at something. But it is a sin to despise others and (purposefully) humiliate them because of it.
As it is a sin to envy others because they are better at something.
"...no one should take advantage of and defraud his brother in this matter, because the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also forewarned you and testified." - 1 Thessalonians 4:6
"Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord." - Romans 12:19
"It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." - Hebrews 10:31
It all comes from the heart, the heart that has the gift and the heart that observes the gift.
At the end, if all just do one thing:
"Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets." - Matthew 7:12
Then peace will reign.
You cannot really go wrong if your objective is to: Please God, live the Gospel!
"Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels..." - Colossians 2:18
"...Take heed that no one deceives you." - Matthew 24:4
Blessings in Jesus' name!
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Cletus
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Post by Cletus on Feb 16, 2019 11:38:02 GMT -5
i think to gain understanding here on what is or is not, where that fine line is drawn its important to look at the attitude of the heart. for emulations... do we try to keep up with the Jones-es? are we jelous of our neighbors new sports car and seek to one up him? and then i have some thoughts about not coveting your neighbors wife and todays terms commonly spoken by some such as "trophy wife"... do i really need to explain this one? all these kinds of things is a man seeking his own glory which was mentioned in a scripture i posted early on in this thread. ... if a man seeks his own glory... its not glory. our purpose in existence is to bring glory to God and a part of that is to be content and satisfied with our portion and provision. I have seen something in another believer that I admired and my heart cried out to God... God give me that. and God honored that prayer. in time God worked that into me. If our heart strives to do good to God and our neighbor how then is it a sin? its not, its fulfilling the law in obedience to God. If we use our talents that God give us for good then it pleases Him, but if we use it for our own lusts... which even if we ask amiss to heap it upon our lusts God wont answer it... we only hurt ourselves. we literally have to go outside of God to seek our own. there is a big difference between serving self and serving God. I learned years back if i am doing it for me and what i want things are going to mess up, problems will pile up, and my life will get so chaotic that i wont know which way is up anymore. the heart of man is desperately wicked... Who can know it? ... your life can get to where it makes you sick. make you want to scream real loud and ... vomit.
note:the examples i used above are some of the more obvious ones.
God Speed.
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Feb 16, 2019 11:59:44 GMT -5
Post by Giller on Feb 16, 2019 11:59:44 GMT -5
Okay now with the benefit of coffee I’m thinking this through. We have a few separate issues getting conflated. We have the idea of comparisons (which can be good or bad), being exalted (also good or bad), and besting opponents. There are times in Scripture when one person is objectively more excellent than another: Many daughters have done virtuously, but thou excellest them all. Favour is deceitful, and beauty is vain: but a woman that feareth the Lord, she shall be praised. — Proverbs 31:29-30
And Mattithiah, and Elipheleh, and Mikneiah, and Obed–edom, and Jeiel, and Azaziah, with harps on the Sheminith to excel. And Chenaniah, chief of the Levites, was for song: he instructed about the song, because he was skilful. — 1 Chronicles 15:21-22
Then this Daniel was preferred above the presidents and princes, because an excellent spirit was in him; and the king thought to set him over the whole realm. — Daniel 6:3
So then he that giveth her in marriage doeth well; but he that giveth her not in marriage doeth better. — 1 Corinthians 7:38We can’t pretend that comparisons don’t exist. God identifies them all the time, and God indeed uses them as qualifiers to praise, exalt, or reward people. Cain murdered Abel because God preferred Abel’s sacrifice. Whether we like it or not, there are in fact standards we are measured against. Paul told us to desire that we may excel: Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church. — 1 Corinthians 14:12Who doesn’t want to hear the words “well done thou good and faithtful servant.” Those who have more will be given more, and those who have less will lose what they had. If we’re not earnest about pursuing excellence, we won’t win that crown. Scripture lays out for us that X is better than Y. We must be careful to avoid the trap of false modesty, where good singers act like they’re not good singers and pretty women act like they’re not really pretty, all in a vain attempt to keep from seeming boastful. Scripture encourages us that God will exalt us: Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time — 1 Peter 5:6
For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. — Luke 14:11Exaltation is the inevitable result of pleasing God. He exalted Joseph, Moses, Esther, Daniel, etc. So we can’t say it’s a sin to end up being exalted. The difference comes down to two things: trying to exalt ourselves and trying to judge our own value by competing with others. Was the woman in Proverbs 31 trying to exalt herself? She pursued excellence above her peers, and she was praised for it. It isn’t a sin to be better at something. I have no objections to being good at something, and being exalted by God, it says he who exalts himself shall be abased, but he who humbles himself shall be exalted. It is more the means by how are they exalted. And there is nothing wrong to excel at things, i totally agree on that, which i do not see as being competition. And of course there are some who play well on an instrument and so on, we each have our gifts.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Feb 16, 2019 12:09:00 GMT -5
So I’m not understanding what the conflict is. It seems like we agree. We should all be helping each other to improve, excel, and make the most of our gifts. We should all be happy when a brother or sister is exalted by God. And we should be willing to engage in activities that sharpen each other to bring out the best in each other. If I can minister to someone by helping them practice endurance on a golf course, so be it! It isn’t about the physical benefit to the body, but the lessons and qualities that come from the experience.
What if we saw competitive sports as an actual form of serving? What if someone more skilled was humbly playing with a less developed opponent until they figured out how to win? Then the better player rejoiced to see the weaker one gain more confidence? That’s iron sharpening iron. All for the purpose of ministry.
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Post by Giller on Feb 16, 2019 12:20:21 GMT -5
Now the bible does use many examples such as soldiers etc, etc, etc, but our battle is different than say a soldier's battle sort of speak, God gives the victory beforehand (even in Old testament times), we just have to walk in what he has already provided, it is not us competing with the devil, it is us submitting ourselves to God's salvation so we can walk in victory.
God does not compete with Satan for why would he, he can snap his finger and Satan ceases to exists, yes Satan is an adversary, but God does not deal with this adversary the same way men deal with adversaries, what he did is proclaim his judgment on him, and therefore Satan received God's judgment.
But Satan sure does compete with God, he is always trying to outdo God, he tries to duplicate God's ways through counterfeits, but God does not do that towards Satan, for God is love, God is justice, and is perfect.
We cannot bring God's ways down to man's standards, or down to Satan's standards, his ways are much higher, and we must cling to his ways of doing things.
And I have not yet seen any clear scripture given that shows how love and competition is compatible.
A lot of arguments with say trying to use parables to reconcile stuff, but not clear cut scriptures that show that love and competition are compatible.
Did God give us our gifts so we can compete with? Or did he give us our gifts so that we can let God use us through these gifts, through the spirit of love?
Gal 5:6 (6) For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
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Feb 16, 2019 12:22:57 GMT -5
Post by Giller on Feb 16, 2019 12:22:57 GMT -5
I can even get into the roots of this stuff, which I have the info on that, but I will leave it at that for now, God is good.
And concerning excelling, it is a personal type of excelling, not for the sake of outdoing others, which you may excel above others in this or that area, but it is a personal thing, and not to outdo others.
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PG4Him
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Feb 16, 2019 12:36:36 GMT -5
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Post by PG4Him on Feb 16, 2019 12:36:36 GMT -5
I’m not disagreeing that love and competition are incompatible. That isn’t what I came here to say. I simply disagree with how you define competition. We are called to finish the race and be an overcomer. Yes Jesus defeated sin and death on the cross, but He didn’t tell us to rest on our laurels giving no effort toward a crown. Either Paul told us to keep running, or he didn’t.
I disagree with you that we don’t need to strive for excellence in ourselves and others. I dsagree that I haven’t been called to stimulate you to good works. If you think it’s competition for me to sharpen your iron, then this thread is at an impasse.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Feb 16, 2019 13:01:32 GMT -5
This goes back to what Paul said about provoking emulation in the Jews. If I can show my brother the more excellent way and inspire/motivate him to reach a bit higher, and I’m doing this to rejoice in his success, then I’m not competing against him. Peter told us women to follow the example of Sarah as our spiritual mother. She is exalted as the standard of a righteous woman. It isn’t competition for this fact to be observed. Peter didn’t tell us not to worry about it since Jesus paid the price. He told us to follow the example of Sarah.
If we define competition as viciously trying to be better than a brother, I’ll agree with you all day long it goes against love. But if we define competition as stimulating each other toward higher success, I disagree.
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PG4Him
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Feb 16, 2019 13:26:05 GMT -5
Post by PG4Him on Feb 16, 2019 13:26:05 GMT -5
This is why we need to be careful in Bible study. When we tug on a tiny little string, we can unravel a whole strand. Competition may seem like an easy subject on the surface, but the ramifications of a poor definition can go much deeper.
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Feb 16, 2019 23:43:45 GMT -5
Post by Giller on Feb 16, 2019 23:43:45 GMT -5
I’m not disagreeing that love and competition are incompatible. That isn’t what I came here to say. I simply disagree with how you define competition. We are called to finish the race and be an overcomer. Yes Jesus defeated sin and death on the cross, but He didn’t tell us to rest on our laurels giving no effort toward a crown. Either Paul told us to keep running, or he didn’t. I disagree with you that we don’t need to strive for excellence in ourselves and others. I dsagree that I haven’t been called to stimulate you to good works. If you think it’s competition for me to sharpen your iron, then this thread is at an impasse. Well of course we are called to be overcomers, when I say resting in his salvation, I am not implying at all there is nothing to do, but it is always in conjunction with our relationship in Christ, and I do agree in striving for excellence, stirring each other up to a deeper walk with God, iron sharpening iron, I really think that you are not really understanding what I am really saying.
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Feb 16, 2019 23:45:51 GMT -5
Post by Giller on Feb 16, 2019 23:45:51 GMT -5
This goes back to what Paul said about provoking emulation in the Jews. If I can show my brother the more excellent way and inspire/motivate him to reach a bit higher, and I’m doing this to rejoice in his success, then I’m not competing against him. Peter told us women to follow the example of Sarah as our spiritual mother. She is exalted as the standard of a righteous woman. It isn’t competition for this fact to be observed. Peter didn’t tell us not to worry about it since Jesus paid the price. He told us to follow the example of Sarah. If we define competition as viciously trying to be better than a brother, I’ll agree with you all day long it goes against love. But if we define competition as stimulating each other toward higher success, I disagree. What is said here itself, I would agree.
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Feb 16, 2019 23:47:31 GMT -5
Post by Giller on Feb 16, 2019 23:47:31 GMT -5
We already talked about a right type of emulation and a wrong type, so i do not know why these things of excellence which I agree with, is being applied to me saying that is competition, for I am not.
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Feb 16, 2019 23:50:52 GMT -5
Post by Giller on Feb 16, 2019 23:50:52 GMT -5
We have to be careful when we say things about someone, sometimes people will mention to resting in his salvation or things like that, but that does not mean they are saying there is nothing to do, we have to be careful how we judge in this way.
It seems to happen a little bit often on Narrow way sometimes.
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Feb 16, 2019 23:52:04 GMT -5
Post by Giller on Feb 16, 2019 23:52:04 GMT -5
Oh and by the way I liked the fellowship me, you and John had tonight.
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