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Post by John on Feb 14, 2019 11:30:11 GMT -5
Plead my cause, O LORD, with them that strive with me: fight against them that fight against me. Take hold of shield and buckler, and stand up for mine help. Draw out also the spear, and stop the way against them that persecute me: say unto my soul, I am thy salvation. Let them be confounded and put to shame that seek after my soul: let them be turned back and brought to confusion that devise my hurt. Let them be as chaff before the wind: and let the angel of the LORD chase them. Let their way be dark and slippery: and let the angel of the LORD persecute them. For without cause have they hid for me their net in a pit, which without cause they have digged for my soul. Let destruction come upon him at unawares; and let his net that he hath hid catch himself: into that very destruction let him fall. And my soul shall be joyful in the LORD: it shall rejoice in his salvation. All my bones shall say, LORD, who is like unto thee, which deliverest the poor from him that is too strong for him, yea, the poor and the needy from him that spoileth him?
One thing that stands out to me in many of the Psalms is how they will plead their cause to God concerning their enemies and seek the Lord's intervention. Where they desired to harm the Psalmist, the prayer is that they will be caught in their own nets and that the destruction will come upon them. Jesus seems to indicate that we should be praying for our enemies, and that is like heaping coals of fire upon their heads. Is this contrary to the teachings of Christ? Is it an example of a contrast between two covenants? Let's continue now in verse 11...
False witnesses did rise up; they laid to my charge things that I knew not. They rewarded me evil for good to the spoiling of my soul. But as for me, when they were sick, my clothing was sackcloth: I humbled my soul with fasting; and my prayer returned into mine own bosom. I behaved myself as though he had been my friend or brother: I bowed down heavily, as one that mourneth for his mother. But in mine adversity they rejoiced, and gathered themselves together: yea, the abjects gathered themselves together against me, and I knew it not; they did tear me, and ceased not: With hypocritical mockers in feasts, they gnashed upon me with their teeth. Lord, how long wilt thou look on? rescue my soul from their destructions, my darling from the lions. I will give thee thanks in the great congregation: I will praise thee among much people. Let not them that are mine enemies wrongfully rejoice over me: neither let them wink with the eye that hate me without a cause. For they speak not peace: but they devise deceitful matters against them that are quiet in the land. Yea, they opened their mouth wide against me, and said, Aha, aha, our eye hath seen it. This thou hast seen, O LORD: keep not silence: O Lord, be not far from me. Stir up thyself, and awake to my judgment, even unto my cause, my God and my Lord.
Judge me, O LORD my God, according to thy righteousness; and let them not rejoice over me. Let them not say, We have swallowed him up. Let them be ashamed and brought to confusion together that rejoice at mine hurt: let them be clothed with shame and dishonor that magnify themselves against me. Let them shout for joy, and be glad, that favour my righteous cause: yea, let them say continually, Let the LORD be magnified, which hath pleasure in the prosperity of his servant. And my tongue shall speak of thy righteousness and of thy praise all the day long.
As I was reading through this Psalm, the thought occurred to me that it really isn't necessary to pray this as a prayer. God knows who are righteous, and who are not. God knows when someone is rewarded evil for good, and when they have plotted against one of his children, and He will reward those people according to their works. David could come to the LORD, knowing full well that he was innocent in the matter, and sought for God's to judge between him and his enemies. He welcomed it, knowing that the Lord sees all things, and knows the intentions of the heart.
I would imagine that most can relate to this Psalm, as they can think of instances where they have been rewarded evil for good, and they have been falsely accused and persecuted. I don't think the Lord is so much leading us to pray for the destruction of our enemies, so much as letting us know that he will deal with them. We may get frustrated over things taking place, and feel injustices occurred, but the Lord sees it all, and will deal with those people in the end.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Feb 14, 2019 11:45:23 GMT -5
I’m confused. Do you think this psalm has no value for us? Do you think it’s wrong?
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Post by John on Feb 14, 2019 11:49:05 GMT -5
I’m confused. Do you think this psalm has no value for us? Do you think it’s wrong? I was seeking opinions.
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Post by John on Feb 14, 2019 11:55:10 GMT -5
I’m confused. Do you think this psalm has no value for us? Do you think it’s wrong? It is commonly taught we shouldn't pray this way. I am looking for opinions for and against and why. Regardless, God will judge our enemies.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Feb 14, 2019 11:58:42 GMT -5
My opinion is that all Scripture is profitable for teaching and exhortation. While we may not actually be encouraged to pray for our enemies to suffer, there is value in this psalm somewhere. I don’t think we should write it off as an outdated prayer which contradicts Jesus. We have a serious problem if half of Psalms is in direct violation of Jesus.
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Post by John on Feb 14, 2019 12:05:27 GMT -5
My opinion is that all Scripture is profitable for teaching and exhortation. While we may not actually be encouraged to pray for our enemies to suffer, there is value in this psalm somewhere. I don’t think we should write it off as an outdated prayer which contradicts Jesus. We have a serious problem if half of Psalms is in direct violation of Jesus. These are things I hear debated, so it is important to deal with them. One question. Do you feel like it is okay and even righteous for us to pray to the Lord through Psalms like this regarding our enemies? This is not a trick question. I really want your opinion.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Feb 14, 2019 12:41:00 GMT -5
I have a few thoughts on psalms such as this.
1) This prayer came after patient attempts to bless the enemies who were literally trying to kill him. We see in verses 13-14 that the psalmist loved them as a brother, even grieving for them in a time of sickness. He practiced what Jesus commanded. Still they sought to kill him, so he had to withdraw. Jesus spoke eight woes over Jerusalem before He was arrested. When God has had enough and He says judgment is coming, we’d best not oppose Him. He told Jeremiah not to bother praying for people whose death warrant had been signed. Peter and Paul both said destruction was stored up for apostate false teachers. When it’s over, it’s over.
2) This is not a petty enemy who borrowed some money and didn’t pay it back. These people were obsessed with killing him, and clearly they were under demonic influence. While the psalmist loved these people as human brothers, he knew he was up against a supernatural attack. We wrestle not against flesh and blood. He tried to love them, tried to bless them, tried to grieve for them, but they were too far gone. I would disagree with you that most of us actually know what this feels like. Unless we’ve been in the situation of hiding from enemies who were obsessed with killing us, we don’t know how this feels. We must be careful to not equivocate our pedestrian offenses with psalms like this.
3) God knows everything before we pray, so why pray for anything? Why take our petitions to Him at all? Why pray for daily bread if He knows we need it? Whether or not God knows our needs — or knows who is right and wrong — isn’t the Biblical standard of what we’re told to pray for.
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Post by John on Feb 14, 2019 12:50:41 GMT -5
I have a few thoughts on psalms such as this. 1) This prayer came after patient attempts to bless the enemies who were literally trying to kill him. We see in verses 13-14 that the psalmist loved them as a brother, even grieving for them in a time of sickness. He practiced what Jesus commanded. Still they sought to kill him, so he had to withdraw. Jesus spoke eight woes over Jerusalem before He was arrested. When God has had enough and He says judgment is coming, we’d best not oppose Him. He told Jeremiah not to bother praying for people whose death warrant had been signed. Peter and Paul both said destruction was stored up for apostate false teachers. When it’s over, it’s over. 2) This is not a petty enemy who borrowed some money and didn’t pay it back. These people were obsessed with killing him, and clearly they were under demonic influence. While the psalmist loved these people as human brothers, he knew he was up against a supernatural attack. We wrestle not against flesh and blood. He tried to love them, tried to bless them, tried to grieve for them, but they were too far gone. I would disagree with you that most of us actually know what this feels like. Unless we’ve been in the situation of hiding from enemies who were obsessed with killing us, we don’t know how this feels. We must be careful to not equivocate our pedestrian offenses with psalms like this. 3) God knows everything before we pray, so why pray for anything? Why take our petitions to Him at all? Why pray for daily bread if He knows we need it? Whether or not God knows our needs — or knows who is right and wrong — isn’t the Biblical standard of what we’re told to pray for. Thank you. As usual, your answer was well thought out and helpful. When I said we all can relate to the Psalmist, I was not meaning we all suffered the same persecutions or at the same level. I think God cares about our pedestrian issues, as he cares about tiny illnesses as well as terminal ones. The question for me is how I look at the Psalms when I read them. Are they more about comfort or more about a way to pray?
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Feb 14, 2019 12:57:37 GMT -5
I have a few thoughts on psalms such as this. 1) This prayer came after patient attempts to bless the enemies who were literally trying to kill him. We see in verses 13-14 that the psalmist loved them as a brother, even grieving for them in a time of sickness. He practiced what Jesus commanded. Still they sought to kill him, so he had to withdraw. Jesus spoke eight woes over Jerusalem before He was arrested. When God has had enough and He says judgment is coming, we’d best not oppose Him. He told Jeremiah not to bother praying for people whose death warrant had been signed. Peter and Paul both said destruction was stored up for apostate false teachers. When it’s over, it’s over. 2) This is not a petty enemy who borrowed some money and didn’t pay it back. These people were obsessed with killing him, and clearly they were under demonic influence. While the psalmist loved these people as human brothers, he knew he was up against a supernatural attack. We wrestle not against flesh and blood. He tried to love them, tried to bless them, tried to grieve for them, but they were too far gone. I would disagree with you that most of us actually know what this feels like. Unless we’ve been in the situation of hiding from enemies who were obsessed with killing us, we don’t know how this feels. We must be careful to not equivocate our pedestrian offenses with psalms like this. 3) God knows everything before we pray, so why pray for anything? Why take our petitions to Him at all? Why pray for daily bread if He knows we need it? Whether or not God knows our needs — or knows who is right and wrong — isn’t the Biblical standard of what we’re told to pray for. Thank you. As usual, your answer was well thought out and helpful. When I said we all can relate to the Psalmist, I was not meaning we all suffered the same persecutions or at the same level. I think God cares about our pedestrian issues, as he cares about tiny illnesses as well as terminal ones. The question for me is how I look at the Psalms when I read them. Are they more about comfort or more about a way to pray?
I would say a psalm such as this is instructive on what happens to relentless, life-threatening enemies bringing supernatural assaults on innocent people. When it’s enough, it’s enough, and God will inspire this type of prayer against them. We can see ourselves as David in this psalm, or we can take it as a warning to not to do what his enemies did. This psalm shows us the limit of His patience.
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Post by John on Feb 14, 2019 13:04:37 GMT -5
Thank you. As usual, your answer was well thought out and helpful. When I said we all can relate to the Psalmist, I was not meaning we all suffered the same persecutions or at the same level. I think God cares about our pedestrian issues, as he cares about tiny illnesses as well as terminal ones. The question for me is how I look at the Psalms when I read them. Are they more about comfort or more about a way to pray?
I would say a psalm such as this is instructive on what happens to relentless, life-threatening enemies bringing supernatural assaults on innocent people. When it’s enough, it’s enough, and God will inspire this type of prayer against them. We can see ourselves as David in this psalm, or we can take it as a warning to not to do what his enemies did. This psalm shows us the limit of His patience. Great answer! Thank you for your thoughts.
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Post by Sister on Feb 14, 2019 21:20:15 GMT -5
Hi Butero
My thoughts are what Jesus commanded, pray for our enemies.....yet David was highly favoured by the Lord of Hosts and in tune with him speaking through the holy spirit. That communication that David had for the Lord is so close it shows his spirit crying out. He is bearing all and taking it all to the Lord. We know that David had mercy on his enemies, especially Saul ...and we know that his actions were in accordance with righteousness and not pride, yet his spirit was crying out for help against all his enemies.
Can we pray like David? It's a good question. David was crying for the Lord to recompense him. There's a difference between taking a matter to the Lord, and taking a matter in our own hands. The spirit is crying out daily for justice and peace. Evil has to be removed and this is the day we all yearn for. Until then we need a little help on the way. It was David's spirit crying out, just like ours do. That spirit comes deep from the heart. It's the hatred for the evil and not necessarily that person. Jesus even said Lord forgive them "for they know not what they do". They truly don't know what they are doing.
Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Revelation 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
This is the spirit crying out. When will this be over?
There comes a time when we will know who our true enemies are and that there is no repentance in them. I have read somewhere in the scriptures that there are certain types of people that you don't even pray for. In fact it's a commandment and a sin to pray for them. I have to find that scripture. Bottom line, take the matter to the Lord and let him do the avenging, and when he does we are commanded not to gloat over it. However one does better if he prays and asks for that soul to be forgiven just like Jesus did as an example to us. We know it's the evil inside doing it, and not the person. I personally would not pray for someone's destruction, but for that evil they are inflicting to depart from me and from themselves. My spirit knows that the Lord will do what is just and David's words were speaking in the spirit of God.
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Post by John on Feb 14, 2019 21:58:28 GMT -5
Thank you Sister for your thoughts on the matter. Yes, David was asking for the Lord to be his avenger. He wasn't speaking of doing it himself.
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Post by preciouspearl on Feb 15, 2019 0:44:35 GMT -5
i used this psalm to write on and express my situation. i picked and chose verses to meditate on.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2019 7:15:39 GMT -5
I take it that David was pouring out his heart prophetically in the Psalms......David had his enemies, but those verses also remind me of Jesus....being falsely accused and persecuted, etc, and crying out to God to rescue His SOUL from their evil....to overcome in other words....and crying out for justice which will be meted out on judgment day, but not before. We are not wrestling with flesh and blood, but with powers and principalities and spiritual wickedness in high places.
Jesus came not to condemn but to save, and He taught that we are to pray for our enemies and do good to them. When the disciples wanted to call down fire from heaven upon their persecutors and enemies, Jesus said they knew not what spirit they were of. The whole reason for His coming was to offer mercy in place of judgment.....and that is a door which will close one day at a time known only to the Lord, but is not yet. So for now we are to take up His ministry of grace and mercy and intercession on earth...as He demonstrated it. And we also are to overcome in face of our enemies and persecutors....God forgiving us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.
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Post by John on Feb 15, 2019 7:21:22 GMT -5
I take it that David was pouring out his heart prophetically in the Psalms......David had his enemies, but those verses also remind me of Jesus....being falsely accused and persecuted, etc, and crying out to God to rescue His SOUL from their evil....to overcome in other words....and crying out for justice which will be meted out on judgment day, but not before. We are not wrestling with flesh and blood, but with powers and principalities and spiritual wickedness in high places. Jesus came not to condemn but to save, and He taught that we are to pray for our enemies and do good to them. When the disciples wanted to call down fire from heaven upon their persecutors and enemies, Jesus said they knew not what spirit they were of. The whole reason for His coming was to offer mercy in place of judgment.....and that is a door which will close one day at a time known only to the Lord, but is not yet. So for now we are to take up His ministry of grace and mercy and intercession on earth...as He demonstrated it. And we also are to overcome in face of our enemies and persecutors....God forgiving us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this Watchful. I do know at least some of the words in Psalms are prophetic and some are pointing to Christ. I don't know about all of them, but I can see where you are coming from.
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