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Post by frienduff on Feb 15, 2019 10:04:48 GMT -5
Thank you Sister for your thoughts on the matter. Yes, David was asking for the Lord to be his avenger. He wasn't speaking of doing it himself. Jesus prayed woes to those WHO HAD REJECTED HIM . Who had heard and seen and still had not repented . Course JESUS knows who is coming and who aint . We don't know that . And even at his last breath , after all HE had warned , Some of His last words were, FATHER FORGIVE THEM . Same with Stephen. Stephen raged in like a caged bull with doctrine against them and called them stiffnecked and UNCIRCUMCIZED . Yet his last words were LORD lay not this sin to their charge . We should focus on exhortation . Even jeremiah had prayed intercession for the people . Then prays like david did too . Notice it said GIVE to your enemies , by doing so, it will be like heaping coals on their head . They might actually repent . Remember it was a coal of fire that cleansed the prophet of his sins , when it was put on his tongue . Perhaps coals on the head , means IT WILL CLEANSE their mind , they might repent .
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Post by frienduff on Feb 15, 2019 10:08:49 GMT -5
That just came to me . the man had said , LORD I am a man of UNCLEAN lips , so a coal was taken off the flame and cleansed his mouth. I truly believe this is the comparison . And not only a coal , but a heap of coals on the head of an enemy that one gives too . I believe this is all tied into the gospel and doing as JESUS said unto our enemies . JUST as He by grace does for all He does indwell. HE cleanes us . Hands up , we all know , ITS LORD PRAISING TIME .
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Post by frienduff on Feb 15, 2019 10:12:16 GMT -5
Let us focus on the LORD and every word of His . Put the LORD first , loving Him above all, even mother, father , son , daughter , wife AND WE will see CLEARLY how to pull the speck out . FOR those who LOVE HIM , LOVE ALL HE said , they will LOVE SOUND DOCTRINE and thus will USE sound doctrine to correct , instruct , equip . Todays many churches KNOW NOT THIS , they put the wisdom of men first and try and love that way , and that has failed miserably . BUT PUT and LOVE JESUS ABOVE ALL and USE that BIBLE , NOW that pattern IS the only pattern that clears the eyes and lets us see HOW to correct and pull the speck out of an eye of another .
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Post by frienduff on Feb 15, 2019 10:13:49 GMT -5
Tick tock , the clock has struck , ITS LORD PRAISING TIME . IT IS LORED praising time . Hands up and let all rejoice in the LORD .
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Post by John on Feb 15, 2019 10:25:04 GMT -5
That just came to me . the man had said , LORD I am a man of UNCLEAN lips , so a coal was taken off the flame and cleansed his mouth. I truly believe this is the comparison . And not only a coal , but a heap of coals on the head of an enemy that one gives too . I believe this is all tied into the gospel and doing as JESUS said unto our enemies . JUST as He by grace does for all He does indwell. HE cleanes us . Hands up , we all know , ITS LORD PRAISING TIME . Good thoughts. I know you like to spend time in Psalms, so how do you relate to them? Are they more like words of comfort or like prayers or both?
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Post by frienduff on Feb 15, 2019 13:43:28 GMT -5
That just came to me . the man had said , LORD I am a man of UNCLEAN lips , so a coal was taken off the flame and cleansed his mouth. I truly believe this is the comparison . And not only a coal , but a heap of coals on the head of an enemy that one gives too . I believe this is all tied into the gospel and doing as JESUS said unto our enemies . JUST as He by grace does for all He does indwell. HE cleanes us . Hands up , we all know , ITS LORD PRAISING TIME . Good thoughts. I know you like to spend time in Psalms, so how do you relate to them? Are they more like words of comfort or like prayers or both?
Its all the above and much more . OH their is no words LIKE the WORDS that THE LORD DOES INSPIRE . Make a lamb happy , well fed , well nourished and fat with joy . Its reminders by the POWER of the SPIRIT , do nourish a lamb all the days of his life . Wise will a lamb be made Whose feast is continual from the pure holy bible . But woe unto those whose love is of carnality and men gone wrong for though they claim light it is but darkness and that darkness consumes them all . But the LORD , HIS WORD is a light unto our soul , a feast for the mind and heart , a light that shines a clear path of the straight and narrow way IN CHRIST . Hands up and let all rejoice in the LORD . And may all flee men gone wrong and seek YE the LORD while HE MAY BE FOUND .
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2019 20:34:05 GMT -5
I take it that David was pouring out his heart prophetically in the Psalms......David had his enemies, but those verses also remind me of Jesus....being falsely accused and persecuted, etc, and crying out to God to rescue His SOUL from their evil....to overcome in other words....and crying out for justice which will be meted out on judgment day, but not before. We are not wrestling with flesh and blood, but with powers and principalities and spiritual wickedness in high places. Jesus came not to condemn but to save, and He taught that we are to pray for our enemies and do good to them. When the disciples wanted to call down fire from heaven upon their persecutors and enemies, Jesus said they knew not what spirit they were of. The whole reason for His coming was to offer mercy in place of judgment.....and that is a door which will close one day at a time known only to the Lord, but is not yet. So for now we are to take up His ministry of grace and mercy and intercession on earth...as He demonstrated it. And we also are to overcome in face of our enemies and persecutors....God forgiving us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this Watchful. I do know at least some of the words in Psalms are prophetic and some are pointing to Christ. I don't know about all of them, but I can see where you are coming from.
To my understanding, prophecy means the Lord is speaking through someone, whether they are speaking of future events or giving another kind of word, so I often use the word prophetic in that general sense. I should clarify also, that I was only referring to the Psalm 35 verses specifically that you had posted, where I was talking about accusation and persecution reminding me of Jesus. Hope that makes my comment more clear.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2019 21:38:44 GMT -5
Thank you Sister for your thoughts on the matter. Yes, David was asking for the Lord to be his avenger. He wasn't speaking of doing it himself. Jesus prayed woes to those WHO HAD REJECTED HIM . Who had heard and seen and still had not repented . Course JESUS knows who is coming and who aint . We don't know that . And even at his last breath , after all HE had warned , Some of His last words were, FATHER FORGIVE THEM . Same with Stephen. Stephen raged in like a caged bull with doctrine against them and called them stiffnecked and UNCIRCUMCIZED . Yet his last words were LORD lay not this sin to their charge . We should focus on exhortation . Even jeremiah had prayed intercession for the people . Then prays like david did too . Notice it said GIVE to your enemies , by doing so, it will be like heaping coals on their head . They might actually repent . Remember it was a coal of fire that cleansed the prophet of his sins , when it was put on his tongue . Perhaps coals on the head , means IT WILL CLEANSE their mind , they might repent .
Did I misread something with this.....as we know Jesus rebuked when necessary, especially and mostly the religious leaders who were and still are held to a stricter standard......but are you sure He prayed woes against them? (It's not uncommon for people to think someone saying "woe to you" in the bible means they are cursing the person, but it doesn't mean that.) Jesus did prophesy against the religious leaders who rejected Him....but He wasn't cursing them per se....He was prophesying rebukes and fore telling and warning what the consequences of their refusal to accept Him were going to be....words that came from the Father. But that's not the same thing as Jesus praying and asking the Father to curse/condemn them.....I can't think of a passage where He did that. Can we look at this and make sure we're understanding aright.....otherwise are we supposed to pray and ask God to curse our enemies and those who reject Him, which is contrary to the message of the gospel, to do good and pray FOR our enemies, not against them. Even the disciples when they were sent out, Jesus did not tell them to pray against and curse those who rejected their message....He just said to brush the dust off against them and let their peace return to them.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Feb 16, 2019 6:10:47 GMT -5
He was prophesying rebukes and fore telling and warning what the consequences of their refusal to accept Him were going to be... And hoping they would repent, but unfortunately, we know that many simply did not understand.
"He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them." - John 12:40
"...is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." - 2 Peter 3:9
"if that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them." - Jeremiah 18:8
"For I desire mercy and not sacrifice, And the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings." - Hosea 6:6
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Post by frienduff on Feb 16, 2019 16:27:13 GMT -5
Jesus prayed woes to those WHO HAD REJECTED HIM . Who had heard and seen and still had not repented . Course JESUS knows who is coming and who aint . We don't know that . And even at his last breath , after all HE had warned , Some of His last words were, FATHER FORGIVE THEM . Same with Stephen. Stephen raged in like a caged bull with doctrine against them and called them stiffnecked and UNCIRCUMCIZED . Yet his last words were LORD lay not this sin to their charge . We should focus on exhortation . Even jeremiah had prayed intercession for the people . Then prays like david did too . Notice it said GIVE to your enemies , by doing so, it will be like heaping coals on their head . They might actually repent . Remember it was a coal of fire that cleansed the prophet of his sins , when it was put on his tongue . Perhaps coals on the head , means IT WILL CLEANSE their mind , they might repent .
Did I misread something with this.....as we know Jesus rebuked when necessary, especially and mostly the religious leaders who were and still are held to a stricter standard......but are you sure He prayed woes against them? (It's not uncommon for people to think someone saying "woe to you" in the bible means they are cursing the person, but it doesn't mean that.) Jesus did prophesy against the religious leaders who rejected Him....but He wasn't cursing them per se....He was prophesying rebukes and fore telling and warning what the consequences of their refusal to accept Him were going to be....words that came from the Father. But that's not the same thing as Jesus praying and asking the Father to curse/condemn them.....I can't think of a passage where He did that. Can we look at this and make sure we're understanding aright.....otherwise are we supposed to pray and ask God to curse our enemies and those who reject Him, which is contrary to the message of the gospel, to do good and pray FOR our enemies, not against them. Even the disciples when they were sent out, Jesus did not tell them to pray against and curse those who rejected their message....He just said to brush the dust off against them and let their peace return to them. I never said he cursed anyone . BUT HE SURE DID say WOE UNTO YOU . he upbraided those cities big time , where he had been, and went back and they had not repented . I tell you it will be worse for YOU on the day of judgment . WORSE . But I never said JESUS cursed them , HE REBUKED MASSIVELY YES . Now put those hands up sister and praise the LORD . Tell Justin I found a video , you show him that Vidoe. I sent it to you all just moments ago . Justin , if you read this , YOU gonna understand why on earth this ol hound has been baying out like its treed four coons . THIS is why I have been warning out against these non correctors and any going under this big love hug family mindst . ITS A SPELL straight from satan . LET no man , woman , child , donkey , fish , tree, cantaloupe , pear , zebra , NOTHING go under it , for all who do will be damned .
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2019 8:05:32 GMT -5
Did I misread something with this.....as we know Jesus rebuked when necessary, especially and mostly the religious leaders who were and still are held to a stricter standard......but are you sure He prayed woes against them? (It's not uncommon for people to think someone saying "woe to you" in the bible means they are cursing the person, but it doesn't mean that.) Jesus did prophesy against the religious leaders who rejected Him....but He wasn't cursing them per se....He was prophesying rebukes and fore telling and warning what the consequences of their refusal to accept Him were going to be....words that came from the Father. But that's not the same thing as Jesus praying and asking the Father to curse/condemn them.....I can't think of a passage where He did that. Can we look at this and make sure we're understanding aright.....otherwise are we supposed to pray and ask God to curse our enemies and those who reject Him, which is contrary to the message of the gospel, to do good and pray FOR our enemies, not against them. Even the disciples when they were sent out, Jesus did not tell them to pray against and curse those who rejected their message....He just said to brush the dust off against them and let their peace return to them. I never said he cursed anyone . BUT HE SURE DID say WOE UNTO YOU . he upbraided those cities big time , where he had been, and went back and they had not repented . I tell you it will be worse for YOU on the day of judgment . WORSE . But I never said JESUS cursed them , HE REBUKED MASSIVELY YES . Now put those hands up sister and praise the LORD . Tell Justin I found a video , you show him that Vidoe. I sent it to you all just moments ago . Justin , if you read this , YOU gonna understand why on earth this ol hound has been baying out like its treed four coons . THIS is why I have been warning out against these non correctors and any going under this big love hug family mindst . ITS A SPELL straight from satan . LET no man , woman , child , donkey , fish , tree, cantaloupe , pear , zebra , NOTHING go under it , for all who do will be damned .
? I'm still confused.......I don't know if maybe you were reading too fast and missed the train of thought on this thread frienduff...? An important question came up, whether as believers we should pray against our flesh and blood enemies.....as we seem to see David doing in the Psalms. It's a question that should not be left in doubt....it needs to be made clear that Jesus told us to pray FOR our enemies, not against them, and that we are to do good to our enemies rather than seeking retribution. We are not to judge them lest we be judged, and that we are to forgive lest our heavenly Father not forgive us. We are not wrestling with flesh and blood but with powers and principalities and spiritual wickedness in high (spiritual) places. Where David was praying against enemies in the Psalms, I believe we are to understand that in the light of the NEW covenant and take it as spiritual warfare and praying against enemies in the spiritual realm....not as praying against flesh and blood people. Surely these things are important to remember in light of the question that came up.....? No one on this thread has said or implied that this rules out rebuke......rebuking or prophesying under the unction of the Holy Spirit is not the same thing as asking God in prayer to punish or condemn our flesh and blood enemies.
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Cletus
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Post by Cletus on Feb 17, 2019 12:23:34 GMT -5
how does Psalm 35 point to Jesus?... in the opening lines of this psalm as well as thru-out the psalm there are big clues to the author being frustrated and that their mind is tormented by suffering injustice. Jesus was innocent. in verse 9 David shows in such circumstances we can seek God and be joyful and rejoice. in verse 16 David was mocked, as was Jesus, and the word gnashed is used which shows the lies and mockery ripped up Davids reputation. in verse 26 it also foreshadows Jesus. Jesus said if you are not for me you are against me.
Davids petition here begins as putting God first, and above everything. He is basically saying look, i am not oppressing these people, i am not doing them any wrong... but you see how they are doing me. David is calling for Justice. The bible tells us for us to call for justice is a delight to God. I have prayed to God you see how they are doing me. David is petitioning for Gods intervention... not wrath. this is the difference between the two types of prayers. i say often... whats the attitude of the heart in this. read the next two psalms also... psalm 36 goes on about how the wicked do not fear God... and psalm 37 ... Fret not thyself because of evildoers, neither be thou envious against the workers of iniquity. For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb Trust in the LORD, and do good; so shalt thou dwell in the land, and verily thou shalt be fed. Delight thyself also in the LORD; and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart. Commit thy way unto the LORD; trust also in him; and he shall bring it to pass. And he shall bring forth thy righteousness as the light, and thy judgment as the noonday. Rest in the LORD, and wait patiently for him: fret not thyself because of him who prospereth in his way, because of the man who bringeth wicked devices to pass. Cease from anger, and forsake wrath: fret not thyself in any wise to do evil. For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.
obviously Davids prayer was heard, and honored by God. Davids hope in psalm 35 was not to take matters into his own hands but to let God do it His way. David was careful in going into battle to have Gods blessing.
there is nothing wrong with calling for justice, but we must not overstep our position before God. He Is God. He Is righteous, and true, and holy, and just. if and when we do things our way, or we try to pray and tell God what justice is or how we demand justice those type of prayers are not going to be heard. vengeance is Gods alone so we must remain humble and be content to let Him have his way. Davids prayer did this very thing.
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Post by John on Feb 17, 2019 13:38:12 GMT -5
I never said he cursed anyone . BUT HE SURE DID say WOE UNTO YOU . he upbraided those cities big time , where he had been, and went back and they had not repented . I tell you it will be worse for YOU on the day of judgment . WORSE . But I never said JESUS cursed them , HE REBUKED MASSIVELY YES . Now put those hands up sister and praise the LORD . Tell Justin I found a video , you show him that Vidoe. I sent it to you all just moments ago . Justin , if you read this , YOU gonna understand why on earth this ol hound has been baying out like its treed four coons . THIS is why I have been warning out against these non correctors and any going under this big love hug family mindst . ITS A SPELL straight from satan . LET no man , woman , child , donkey , fish , tree, cantaloupe , pear , zebra , NOTHING go under it , for all who do will be damned .
? I'm still confused.......I don't know if maybe you were reading too fast and missed the train of thought on this thread frienduff...? An important question came up, whether as believers we should pray against our flesh and blood enemies.....as we seem to see David doing in the Psalms. It's a question that should not be left in doubt....it needs to be made clear that Jesus told us to pray FOR our enemies, not against them, and that we are to do good to our enemies rather than seeking retribution. We are not to judge them lest we be judged, and that we are to forgive lest our heavenly Father not forgive us. We are not wrestling with flesh and blood but with powers and principalities and spiritual wickedness in high (spiritual) places. Where David was praying against enemies in the Psalms, I believe we are to understand that in the light of the NEW covenant and take it as spiritual warfare and praying against enemies in the spiritual realm....not as praying against flesh and blood people. Surely these things are important to remember in light of the question that came up.....? No one on this thread has said or implied that this rules out rebuke......rebuking or prophesying under the unction of the Holy Spirit is not the same thing as asking God in prayer to punish or condemn our flesh and blood enemies. This comment brings up yet three more issues. The scripture about not judging lest ye be judged is speaking of judged by other people, not God. In the case of forgiving, I don't believe we must forgive those who don't ask and who are not repentant. Jesus said if your brother asks 70 times 7 to be forgiven, we are to do it, not that we must forgive unconfessed transgressions against us. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with asking God to chastise our enemies to bring them to repentance. I am willing to discuss and re-consider any of this.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Feb 17, 2019 13:45:20 GMT -5
...not that we must forgive unconfessed transgressions against us. Well, I really hope you mean formal forgiveness.
Because if you do not forgive it means you will develop bitterness.
"And whenever you stand praying,
if you have anything against anyone, forgive him,
that your Father in heaven may also forgive you your trespasses." - Mark 11:25
Bitterness is dangerous, and if you harbor bitterness it will not only harm you but the other person as well.
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Post by John on Feb 17, 2019 13:55:19 GMT -5
...not that we must forgive unconfessed transgressions against us. Well, I really hope you mean formal forgiveness.
Because if you do not forgive it means you will develop bitterness.
"And whenever you stand praying,
if you have anything against anyone, forgive him,
that your Father in heaven may also forgive you your trespasses." - Mark 11:25
Bitterness is dangerous, and if you harbor bitterness it will not only harm you but the other person as well. You do make a good point regarding a root of bitterness. That can be harmful to you personally.
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