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Post by John on Apr 11, 2018 16:20:27 GMT -5
Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puft up by his fleshly mind.
There is no question that we are not supposed to worship angels. The only one worthy of our worship is God. As such, what do you think this verse means, when it speaks of getting a reward with regard to worshipping of angels? I think I might know the answer, but I am not sure, and would like to hear the opinion of others.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Apr 11, 2018 16:52:11 GMT -5
Then I am looking forward to hear your opinion... As I have no idea.
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Post by John on Apr 11, 2018 17:36:39 GMT -5
Then I am looking forward to hear your opinion... As I have no idea. First of all, I admit I am not sure. This verse has been kind of ignored over the years because nobody can seem to figure it out, and I am not going to claim to know for sure. Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind.When I read it this evening, I felt like the key portion of the verse was the last part, "intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind." I don't think it is saying we will be rewarded for worshipping angels. I think we will be rewarded for humility, in recognizing that there are some things we don't understand. We have not seen heaven in all it's splendor, including the angels worshipping God, and I feel like there were some people pushing views about things they had not seen. They were likely religious leaders, boasting of their knowledge. Granted, I am not going to say this is right. The way it is worded, it certainly doesn't sound like that is what it is saying, but based on the last part of the verse, and the fact it was focused on humility and not being puffed up in our mind over things we have not seen, that is all I can come up with. I would still like other opinions, especially if someone has a different interpretation. I put this out there because it is something I can't say of a certainty. If I was to put it into practice right now, I would say the lesson is to be humble, rather than prideful.
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Post by frienduff on Apr 11, 2018 19:21:03 GMT -5
Butero. it says LET NO MAN BEGUILE YOU of YOUR REWARD.
Let man deceive you into worshipping angles . IF we worship anything other than GOD. WE aint going to have no reward .
This is what this is saying. Do not let anyman BEGUILE you of your reward . I know its older English.
IT could be written Just like this today. Hey , do not let any man beguile you of your reward by having you worship angels , he intrudes into those things which he has not seen, and he is puffed up by his own fleshly mind .
Look at how many today are worshipping angels, PRAYING to them, even the angel in revelation told JOHN , DONT kneel before me , WORSHIP GOD ONLY.
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Post by John on Apr 11, 2018 20:11:03 GMT -5
Butero. it says LET NO MAN BEGUILE YOU of YOUR REWARD. Let man deceive you into worshipping angles . IF we worship anything other than GOD. WE aint going to have no reward . This is what this is saying. Do not let anyman BEGUILE you of your reward . I know its older English. IT could be written Just like this today. Hey , do not let any man beguile you of your reward by having you worship angels , he intrudes into those things which he has not seen, and he is puffed up by his own fleshly mind . Look at how many today are worshipping angels, PRAYING to them, even the angel in revelation told JOHN , DONT kneel before me , WORSHIP GOD ONLY. I am still not certain, but I think you very well may be on to something. We are not to worship angels, so whether that is the meaning or not, we know we have two truths from scripture we can be sure of. We are to be humble and we are not to worship anyone but God. We are not to worship angels. Thanks for your input. It is definitely a possibility, and makes as much sense as what I said.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Apr 11, 2018 20:24:12 GMT -5
I would say the lesson is to be humble, rather than prideful. This is true, we should be humble.
And it includes in being sincere about our knowledge, do not go out speaking of things you are not sure about and teach as absolute truth.
"But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin." - Romans 14:23
And about humility, well, Christ gave us an example that we should follow.
"who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant and coming in the likeness of men." - Philippians 2:6-7
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2018 13:18:25 GMT -5
Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puft up by his fleshly mind.There is no question that we are not supposed to worship angels. The only one worthy of our worship is God. As such, what do you think this verse means, when it speaks of getting a reward with regard to worshipping of angels? I think I might know the answer, but I am not sure, and would like to hear the opinion of others. See if this might be helpful: "Let no man beguile you of your reward".....let no one seduce you out of your reward , by believing false deceptive doctrines. "in a voluntary humility".......phoney self-righteous humility "and worshipping of angels"......worship of angels, and those who have died... because Jesus said we will be like the angels. Like catholics worship saints....and Mary.....I think the Jews of old in building tombs for the prophets were doing that in a way as well, elevating the dead prophets to a special status and going to pray at their tombs, etc. "intruding into those things which he hath not seen".......things that were not shown/revealed to Him by God. "vainly puft up by his fleshly mind".......worship of saints is a false/vain doctrine of the carnal mind, it is man-made religion.....a way that seemeth right but isn't. Like all self-righteous behaviour only breeds pride. (God only accepts the righteousness of Christ in us, not our own righteousness.)
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Post by frienduff on Apr 12, 2018 13:25:02 GMT -5
Paul must have seen the beginning of what would eventually become common practice in Roman Catholicism. Worshippng angels some were already trying to begin that stuff. The spirit of anti Christ has been at work a long , long time .
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2018 14:20:01 GMT -5
Paul must have seen the beginning of what would eventually become common practice in Roman Catholicism. Worshippng angels some were already trying to begin that stuff. The spirit of anti Christ has been at work a long , long time . Amen, there is nothing new under the sun......flesh and religion really all the same and always has been. Ancient Rome was already doing it, deifying and worshiping their dead Caesars.
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Post by John on Apr 12, 2018 16:41:59 GMT -5
Because Catholicism didn't exist at the time, I didn't make the connection, but as Frienduff said, the Spirit knew what was coming. I have always associated the words "of science so-called," with Darwin, because God knew what was coming.
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Post by tlsitd on Apr 12, 2018 19:19:36 GMT -5
Elaborating on what Frienduff mentioned, about losing our reward for worshiping angels: Colossians 2:18 is within the context of a passage in which Paul is warning against embracing heresy, which could disqualify a Christian from receiving his or her reward---in this case the prize of eternal life, as Frienduff said. A person who departs from the teachings of the faith and becomes a heretic by following teachings and practices that are not a part of Christianity, (and is therefore no longer practicing true Christianity but something else) will be disqualified from the prize---which is awarded to those who continue in the faith (Colossians 1:23) that was once for all delivered to the saints, and not to those who depart from it.
This is like the warning Paul gave to the church in Galatia who had turned to a different gospel and had been persuaded that they needed to be circumcised in order to be justified by God.
Paul said: You were running well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? This persuasion is not from Him who calls you. (Galatians 5:7,8)
And,
You are SEVERED from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. (Galatians 5:4)
So, with the Colossians, Paul was basically just reminding and warning them not to go astray from the sound doctrine of the faith and start embracing false teachings that could potentially disqualify them for the prize of eternal life. This is a theme of most of his epistles, and Peter and John warn against this also in their epistles: Don't be led astray by false teachings.
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. (1 Timothy 4:1-3)
Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is the promise that He made to us---eternal life. (1 John 2:24,25)
Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. (2 John 9)
So the worship of angels is just an example of a heretical practice that could potentially lead to a Christian being disqualified for the prize of eternal life.
This is one of the reasons I sometimes like to use more than one translation of the Bible. When I first got saved, I studied from three translations simultaneously: The KJV, the NIV and the ESV; and the Lord taught me the same truths from them all (without confusion). I found one translation to be more clear, complete or accurate than another depending on what I was reading, so it was nice to be able to compare. I eventually settled on the ESV, which I appreciate for its clear language, and its footnotes.
This is Colossians 2:18 according to the ESV (the translation I use primarily):
Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind...
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Post by tlsitd on Apr 12, 2018 19:53:43 GMT -5
I would say the lesson is to be humble, rather than prideful. This is true, we should be humble.
And it includes in being sincere about our knowledge, do not go out speaking of things you are not sure about and teach as absolute truth.
"But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin." - Romans 14:23
And about humility, well, Christ gave us an example that we should follow.
"who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant and coming in the likeness of men." - Philippians 2:6-7Paul wrote something about this in 1 Corinthians: I have applied all these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another. (1 Corinthians 4:6) Throughout the epistle of 1st Corinthians Paul was addressing certain arrogant people who were teaching with authority what they didn't properly understand and ought not to have been teaching:"Food is meant for the stomach and the stomach for food"; "All things are lawful for me"; "It is good for a man not to touch a woman"; "All of us possess knowledge". If all the brothers were speaking the same thing (just teaching what is in the Scriptures, and not adding anything to it) there would be no reason for anyone to follow a certain brother or for one brother to be exalted above another because of what he taught. When people add things to the Scriptures, or deliberately twist or tamper with them, it's for themselves, to get themselves a following and glory. As Jesus also said: "The one who speaks on his own authority seeks his own glory, but the one who seeks the glory of him who sent him is true, and in him there is no falsehood." (If this was true of Jesus, who the Father sent, it should be true of those who follow Jesus and who He sends---not seeking their own glory but God's, and speaking on the authority of God's Word, and not their own.)
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Post by John on Apr 12, 2018 21:08:27 GMT -5
Elaborating on what Frienduff mentioned, about losing our reward for worshiping angels: Colossians 2:18 is within the context of a passage in which Paul is warning against embracing heresy, which could disqualify a Christian from receiving his or her reward---in this case the prize of eternal life, as Frienduff said. A person who departs from the teachings of the faith and becomes a heretic by following teachings and practices that are not a part of Christianity, (and is therefore no longer practicing true Christianity but something else) will be disqualified from the prize---which is awarded to those who continue in the faith (Colossians 1:23) that was once for all delivered to the saints, and not to those who depart from it. This is like the warning Paul gave to the church in Galatia who had turned to a different gospel and had been persuaded that they needed to be circumcised in order to be justified by God. Paul said: You were running well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? This persuasion is not from Him who calls you. (Galatians 5:7,8) And, You are SEVERED from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. (Galatians 5:4) So, with the Colossians, Paul was basically just reminding and warning them not to go astray from the sound doctrine of the faith and start embracing false teachings that could potentially disqualify them for the prize of eternal life. This is a theme of most of his epistles, and Peter and John warn against this also in their epistles: Don't be led astray by false teachings. Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. (1 Timothy 4:1-3) Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is the promise that He made to us---eternal life. (1 John 2:24,25) Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. (2 John 9) So the worship of angels is just an example of a heretical practice that could potentially lead to a Christian being disqualified for the prize of eternal life. This is one of the reasons I sometimes like to use more than one translation of the Bible. When I first got saved, I studied from three translations simultaneously: The KJV, the NIV and the ESV; and the Lord taught me the same truths from them all (without confusion). I found one translation to be more clear, complete or accurate than another depending on what I was reading, so it was nice to be able to compare. I eventually settled on the ESV, which I appreciate for its clear language, and its footnotes. This is Colossians 2:18 according to the ESV (the translation I use primarily): Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind...I agree with most of your post, but as I have stated before, the primary reason I am KJV only, is because Bibles like the ESV leave out some of the verses. This is a deception to discredit the Bible's reliability. It brings into question portions of the text that had in the past been considered Holy Scripture, and makes places like Mark 16:9-20 apocrypha in the eyes of some. They also put verses in footnotes. I once had a Parallel Bible with the KJV on one side and the NIV on the other, and it was by comparing them side by side, I could see they were not the same, yet the text of the Geneva Bible, the KJV Bible and the NKJV Bible all agree. The are not word for word the same, but the include the entire text. As to what you said about falling away being possible, of course it is. The Bible gives many such warnings. It is not enough to enter the race, but we must finish it.
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Post by John on Apr 12, 2018 21:30:19 GMT -5
This is true, we should be humble.
And it includes in being sincere about our knowledge, do not go out speaking of things you are not sure about and teach as absolute truth.
"But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin." - Romans 14:23
And about humility, well, Christ gave us an example that we should follow.
"who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant and coming in the likeness of men." - Philippians 2:6-7 Paul wrote something about this in 1 Corinthians: I have applied all these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another. (1 Corinthians 4:6) Throughout the epistle of 1st Corinthians Paul was addressing certain arrogant people who were teaching with authority what they didn't properly understand and ought not to have been teaching:"Food is meant for the stomach and the stomach for food"; "All things are lawful for me"; "It is good for a man not to touch a woman"; "All of us possess knowledge". If all the brothers were speaking the same thing (just teaching what is in the Scriptures, and not adding anything to it) there would be no reason for anyone to follow a certain brother or for one brother to be exalted above another because of what he taught. When people add things to the Scriptures, or deliberately twist or tamper with them, it's for themselves, to get themselves a following and glory. As Jesus also said: "The one who speaks on his own authority seeks his own glory, but the one who seeks the glory of him who sent him is true, and in him there is no falsehood." (If this was true of Jesus, who the Father sent, it should be true of those who follow Jesus and who He sends---not seeking their own glory but God's, and speaking on the authority of God's Word, and not their own.) This is a case where the KJV Bible does not agree with your Bible or the NKJV Bible. Here is how it puts it in 1 Corinthians 4:6 and I will add verse 7 as well. And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for our sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another. For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?When I read it from your translation and even the NKJV Bible, I get a completely different meaning, than from the Authorized KJV Bible. What I get from the KJV Bible is simply that we shouldn't put men on a pedestal, and make them greater than what is written. It is not saying we shouldn't add to the Word to make ourselves appear smarter than others, but it is saying we shouldn't look at men as greater than one another, which goes against scriptural teachings. The Bible teaches we are all co-laborers together, one is not superior to another, and we shouldn't go around lifting up individuals above their brethren. One plants, another waters, but God gives the increase. There is no question that some people will exalt themselves above others. That is clearly wrong. The whole body must learn to work together, and we all need each other to simply fulfil the role God gave us. I believe that while we do not agree on Bible translations, we can agree on the need to be humble. Pride is a sin.
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Post by frienduff on Apr 13, 2018 8:34:49 GMT -5
Butero. lift hands and praise the Lord.
The Lord will give us understanding . I have loved that kjv too. I know some have said that it is hard to understand. But as we seek Him it just comes together . I have in time found , that by just reading it and loving it things will become clearer and clearer. The one thing I also love about the king james is , it altered nothing and the pattern of how it is written all lines up with other places in it . an example is it keeps the word unnatural affection in timothy . it also uses the word useemingly in corithains to show what love is not then in romans one to shows us with the same word , man with man working that which is unseemingly. It truly just reveals truth and not what man thinks it should have said or should say. It kept it all in line . I just pray many would go back to just reading it and if any has questions about what they read , pray and also ask one another . I am encouraged by the truth that light In the darkness brought . And I am happy that it seems the ones HERE want to really serve the LORD and look out for another too. We know we can explain things from hearts that desire only good for the hearer. If any has questions let us pray and ask one another and always be here to encourage and edify , exhorting daily one another .
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