Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 11, 2018 8:26:48 GMT -5
Sis, I believe in male leadership, and don't believe that women should have authority over men, as the scriptures say, most of the time and under most circumstances. However, I would like to see some biblical support that in Christ we are to hold a thing called "church services". Consider and see what you think of this, because what I see in the epistles is a body of believers gathered together informally in each other's homes, as a Body with many members, whereby each member brings a hymn, a word, a revelation, etc, according as the Head of the Body leads and orchestrates by His Spirit. It is in this manner that the Body is edified, as the scripture says...and as the scriptures also say even the least part is needed by the other parts. Remember that the Old Testament paradigm was a rather rigid one with specific rules and didn't include the Holy Spirit.....but where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom. It's a whole new kettle of fish now...and who can tell the wind, where it blows or where it comes from. What happens typically with church gatherings is that the less they are led by the presence of the Spirit of Christ, the more rigid and formal they become to fill the vacuum. I don't mean a gathering should have no plan and no structure whatsoever, but it should be a loose enough structure to allow the possibility that the Head of His Church might want to overrule it and take charge at any time.
As for women not singing in the church, I have trouble conceiving of that......it's during worship and song and praise that hearts are most open to the Lord, and He comes and inhabits the praises of His people in one accord.....and ministers to them. That would exclude the women from being ministered to in this way, a tragic loss. Jesus Himself broke the barrier separating men and women. And the Law that awakens and gives strength to sin, we are no longer under, so those kinds of tensions and distractions are much less of an issue for believers, or should be, as long as women are decently dressed.
I understand why the letters and such were addressed to the men....to keep the women hidden and covered as it were. It is so that sin and such would not be exposed and imputed to the women, because we are to be treated in a more gentle or indirect way for lack of a better way of saying that, not publicly exposed so to speak. It speaks to Christ and the church.....the sins of the woman are covered by her Husband, and Love covers a multitude of sins. It is not to exclude us, just to cover us. Not because we deserve to be, but out of love and mercy because we are the weaker sex. North Americans do not seem to understand the concept in general....I've observed that some other older cultures and especially the Jews seem to understand that concept more instinctively.
Anyway, bless you, and I hope that might be worth considering, unless somebody can bring some scripture that shows we are to have formal church services when we meet together. Up to now I just do not get that sense from reading the epistles, or indeed from Jesus Himself, His life and how He did things.
|
|
|
Post by frienduff on May 11, 2018 8:42:25 GMT -5
I think I understand what Letters is saying....it's not a sin question, it's a rule question, and exceptions can sometimes be made to rules...in a time of need or for God's purposes. I think Deborah was one such exception if I'm not mistaken. See if this seems right or not....I believe from scripture where it says women must remain silent is talking about idle chatter and asking of questions, not to disrupt the flow of the meetings...as well not to teach. It obviously can't mean literally silent all the time, since it is permitted for a woman to pray and prophesy. Only teaching is not allowed and assuming leadership over men in the church...because teaching by it's nature is sort of assuming authority over the ones they are teaching. Whereas prophesying and possibly even preaching (if it is genuinely by the Holy Spirit) are bringing HIS word and authority. Please help my memory here, but I think the bible only forbids women teaching, not preaching...? This is obviously in context of teaching here....let the woman learn...not teach... 1Ti 2:11-12 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. Preaching is a different thing than teaching....preaching is in the spirit, while teaching is to help the understanding. Preaching can be done without being in a leadership role like pastor or elder. Women certainly do preach the gospel on mission fields especially. I would not recommend a woman to preach in a church that would be offended by that though, just to avoid a stumbling block. The church services are actually supposed to be conducted by and participated in by the men. The women are present in the congregations, but not a part of the actual church service. The men teach. The men pray aloud ( lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling). The men sing the hymns. The men prophesy. The men speak in tongues. And the women are silent and listen. (There's more to the explanation of the church than this, but this truth alone will probably be hard enough to receive.) Notice that the instructions for the churches are addressed to men and not to women (although there are commands given to women for behavior in the congregations---keeping silent and learning in silence---and moral instruction that applies to both genders). Notice that the church gifts (the spiritual gifts for building up the church) are given to men and not to women (Ephesians 4:8,11,12). That doesn't mean that women aren't given certain spiritual gifts (the gift of prophecy for example), but they are not given spiritual gifts for the building up of the body: Pastors, evangelists, apostles, prophets (not prophetesses); all male. Nor are they supposed to serve as deacons, although they may be patronesses of the church and serve as hostesses and minister to the needs of the saints in various ways. It's not a formal position like the position of a deacon in the church is. Women are not to prophesy in church, or sing, or preach. Those instructions are in fact for the brothers, not the sisters. Women may sing or prophesy outside of the church service, but the church service is supposed to be conducted by and participated in by the brothers, and the women should keep silent in the churches. The church is a formal meeting and service to God, not just a prayer gathering or a time of fellowship for brothers and sisters---such as on an online forum like this one, or a Bible study. And it has a formal structure: various offices, and rules for how it is to be set up and how worship should be conducted, which the epistles define. It's not merely a gathering of believers. It's tricky to understand this, because, obviously, there are many things in the epistles that apply to both men and women (such as moral instruction, and explanations of concepts). But not everything does. And sometimes what is written specifically refers to men and the spiritual gifts that are given to men, as they are to be used by men, and not to women. If this sounds utterly bizarre and impossible, I suggest reading the epistles more carefully and taking note of who is being addressed. The reason the epistles are addressed to the brothers (and not the brothers and sisters)---'brothers', 'brothers', 'brothers', over and over---is because the churches are for men. According to God's order of things, generally, it works this way: God speaks to the men, and the men speak to the women. It's a hierarchy of sorts, in terms of authority: God, then angels, then men, then women. God spoke to Adam, and Adam passed His command on to his wife, which was just as if God Himself had given her the command directly. God spoke mainly to the men of Israel, in the Old Testament---over and over; the men, or sons, of Israel. Why? Because of God's hierarchy. The men were supposed to pass on God's commands to their wives. And so it continues in the New Testament. (Obviously, there are many things in both the OT and NT that apply to both men and women, but the Scriptures are overwhelmingly addressed to men. This is such an obvious fact that it's sort of amazing that people overlook it.) I hate to mention the orthodox Jews, because I don't want to seem to be suggesting that Christians should copy them (and most of you already know my position on Hebrew Roots and its ilk), but I mention this only for illustration purposes, so that you can get an idea of how the early churches might have operated, in terms of their services. In the orthodox Jewish synagogues, the men conduct the worship services---singing and praying and reading from the Torah---and the women listen and watch. In some synagogues the women even sit apart from the men in a special balcony---like spectators. It's very obvious in such services that the service is supposed to be conducted by the men, just like the Jewish temple service was. The formal temple positions/offices were all male. And so are the church positions. (I believe this is important for Christians to understand, because understanding the truth eliminates confusion and error in the practice of our faith, which makes us more fruitful and powerful as saints and more pleasing to the Lord for knowing and doing what His will actually is, and also knowing what it is not.)
|
|
|
Post by frienduff on May 11, 2018 8:44:49 GMT -5
Sister lights is spot on . Only one thing , I also believe women can sing along with men in the churches . Singing to the LORD is ordained by GOD . I think together men and women can sing. Praises to the LORD let all sing as one .
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 11, 2018 9:06:29 GMT -5
Here is the context in 1 Corinthians 11 of the discussion about women praying and prophesying:
1Co 11:16-17 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither THE CHURCHES of God. Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye COME TOGETHER not for the better, but for the worse.
We can see by this that it is talking about during the church meetings. Women remain under the authority and covering of the male headship in the churches even when participating under the unction of the Holy Spirit.
|
|
|
Post by tlsitd on May 11, 2018 9:56:29 GMT -5
Here is the context in 1 Corinthians 11 of the discussion about women praying and prophesying: 1Co 11:16-17 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither THE CHURCHES of God. Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye COME TOGETHER not for the better, but for the worse. We can see by this that it is talking about during the church meetings. Women remain under the authority and covering of the male headship in the churches even when participating under the unction of the Holy Spirit. No, my friend. The instructions of the epistles are clear about this, and they mean what they say. Comparing epistle with epistle you can see that the women are not participating in or carrying out the services, but the brothers are; and that the epistles' instructions are directed to men. Women are not to be participating in the worship service with the brothers, but quiet observers and participants in spirit. And the fact that women are under the spiritual authority of their husbands, no matter what they choose to do, doesn't mean that they are permitted, or desired, by God to do whatever the men are doing in the church because He recognizes their husbands' spiritual authority over them. (The husband will have to give an account to the Lord for what he permitted his wife to do, and he should be obedient to the Lord's instructions for the churches.) And the Holy Spirit would not lead a woman to do something that God does not permit in His word. So the woman who thinks that she is honoring God by doing something contrary to the instruction and commands of the Scriptures, is in error. And if she isn't 100% certain that what she is doing actually IS God's will and permissible by Him, both because His word confirms it and because she has the peace of His Spirit to do it, what she is doing is not of faith. So, if you believe that God is pleased for women to sing in church, for example, you'd better be 100% sure of it, by confirmation of God's word and His Spirit, with sincere prayer to know His will in the matter; because if you don't have this, what you are doing is sin. (So says the word of God, not just me.)
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 11, 2018 10:48:09 GMT -5
<< Women are not to be participating in the worship service with the brothers, but quiet observers and participants in spirit. >>
Often this is to be the case, unless the Spirit of Christ unctions them otherwise. There is a difference between a woman in the flesh and a spiritually mature woman unctioned by the Holy Spirit.
<< (So says the word of God, not just me.) >>
Please bring the scriptures on these things, sister....I am open to hearing them.
<< And the fact that women are under the spiritual authority of their husbands, no matter what they choose to do, doesn't mean that they are permitted, or desired, by God to do whatever the men are doing in the church because He recognizes their husbands' spiritual authority over them. >>
I agree, and I think there is just a misunderstanding of what I was saying. If I can flesh it out a bit better, what I meant is that a woman being unctioned by the Holy Spirit and known to the church leadership, may be allowed by them to bring a word or prophecy, or prayer. (Assuming they have proper discernment.) In this way she is vetted and under the covering and authority of the leadership. If she is known to them as being mature and having spiritual gifts etc, she may obey the Spirit when He unctions and participate in that way. That is not to say women may teach or dominate the meeting or have authority over the men though.
Just a comment in general, what I have seen in Christendom, is that the stronger the presence of the Holy Spirit in a meeting, the more freedom and INformality there is and He orchestrates and unctions everything in a natural way, and conversely the less of His presence the more we will find formal religiosity, and every range in between. That is why in dead churches there are all those formalities and rituals, because He has left the building (ichabod). It's also why when He comes more strongly like in a revival, the windows are just blown out on all the formalities when He takes over for a while and does as HE pleases.
|
|
karanbac
Junior Member
http://www.standeyo.com/NEWS/18_Pics_of_Day/18_Pics_of_Day_pics/180529.free.speech.b.jpg
Posts: 151
|
Post by karanbac on May 11, 2018 11:27:39 GMT -5
That simply means no woman can LEAD the church I never saw such a case, of women really leading the church... But I have seen some who preach, and they are not alone; but married with a male pastor.
I cannot condemn. But as long as they are preaching truth, I do not see a problem.But no woman can be in that position of authority , like a deacon , bishop , apostle, preacher etc. Maybe because you just do not decide to become one, or God called you, or He did not.
And all those who were genuinely called will have all the fruits following them: truth and love."Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment." - John 7:24It seems like judging is far more complex than we think it is.
But the rule still stands: you shall know them by their fruits.
Because it would profit nothing if you have everything setup according to the rules, but have not the Spirit.
Again..."Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment." - John 7:24
God bless you in Jesus' name!
Gods Word gives us the definitions and character and integrity needed for one to become an elder or deacon.
Women can be deacons but not elders.
|
|
|
Post by tlsitd on May 11, 2018 13:26:26 GMT -5
Sis, I believe in male leadership, and don't believe that women should have authority over men, as the scriptures say, most of the time and under most circumstances. However, I would like to see some biblical support that in Christ we are to hold a thing called "church services". Consider and see what you think of this, because what I see in the epistles is a body of believers gathered together informally in each other's homes, as a Body with many members, whereby each member brings a hymn, a word, a revelation, etc, according as the Head of the Body leads and orchestrates by His Spirit. It is in this manner that the Body is edified, as the scripture says...and as the scriptures also say even the least part is needed by the other parts. Remember that the Old Testament paradigm was a rather rigid one with specific rules and didn't include the Holy Spirit.....but where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom. It's a whole new kettle of fish now...and who can tell the wind, where it blows or where it comes from. What happens typically with church gatherings is that the less they are led by the presence of the Spirit of Christ, the more rigid and formal they become to fill the vacuum. I don't mean a gathering should have no plan and no structure whatsoever, but it should be a loose enough structure to allow the possibility that the Head of His Church might want to overrule it and take charge at any time. As for women not singing in the church, I have trouble conceiving of that......it's during worship and song and praise that hearts are most open to the Lord, and He comes and inhabits the praises of His people in one accord.....and ministers to them. That would exclude the women from being ministered to in this way, a tragic loss. Jesus Himself broke the barrier separating men and women. And the Law that awakens and gives strength to sin, we are no longer under, so those kinds of tensions and distractions are much less of an issue for believers, or should be, as long as women are decently dressed. I understand why the letters and such were addressed to the men....to keep the women hidden and covered as it were. It is so that sin and such would not be exposed and imputed to the women, because we are to be treated in a more gentle or indirect way for lack of a better way of saying that, not publicly exposed so to speak. It speaks to Christ and the church.....the sins of the woman are covered by her Husband, and Love covers a multitude of sins. It is not to exclude us, just to cover us. Not because we deserve to be, but out of love and mercy because we are the weaker sex. North Americans do not seem to understand the concept in general....I've observed that some other older cultures and especially the Jews seem to understand that concept more instinctively. Anyway, bless you, and I hope that might be worth considering, unless somebody can bring some scripture that shows we are to have formal church services when we meet together. Up to now I just do not get that sense from reading the epistles, or indeed from Jesus Himself, His life and how He did things. "Formal" not in a ritualistic sense but in terms of there being rules for how worship is conducted and who participates in what and how when the brothers gather together on the Lord's day for the purpose of teaching one another, sharing the Lord's supper (which is an actual meal that includes the breaking of bread and sharing of wine---not a symbolic rite of sipping a thimble of juice and eating a matzo cracker, i.e. "communion") and worshiping. Gathering in homes doesn't make the meeting any less 'formal' in that sense (and a 'church' building isn't Scriptural, or necessary for church meetings, not that a building of some kind other than a home couldn't be used), nor does each participant being led by the Holy Spirit make it informal. Paul even gave the brothers instructions for how to speak in tongues and how to prophesy, to maintain appropriate order during these meetings. (And God is not the Author of confusion but of peace, so following the leading of His Spirit would not result in disorder or confusion, but would operate within the rules and guidelines for worship laid out in the Scriptures. The Holy Spirit doesn't lead people to do things contrary to what God's word commands.) I believe that there is a difference between gathering formally for church service and just gathering as brothers and sisters to fellowship, sing hymns or have a Bible study. The brothers traditionally gathered together for church meetings on the first day of the week ('Sunday')---the day Christ rose from the dead---to worship and to break bread (that is, to take part in the Lord's supper meal, and the included commemorative breaking of bread and sharing of wine in remembrance of the Lord's death.) That doesn't mean the brothers and sisters couldn't or didn't gather at other times and in other ways, or that the rules for church worship apply to all gatherings of believers. I don't believe they do. Nor do I believe that every gathering of the saints is church. If the brothers and sisters were to decide that they wanted to have a church meeting, the rules for such would apply.
|
|
|
Post by John on May 11, 2018 13:38:20 GMT -5
That simply means no woman can LEAD the church , they cannot have certain positions . THEIR is reason for this . GOD set up things the way HE set them up . Their can be no women pastors . This is fact . They cannot teach or USURP AUTHORITY over the man. Deacons , bishops , pastors etc USRUP authority . We must keep the pattern GOD set first . Paul was the one who remninded why this is . SISTER lights is spot on right . Sister lights is not ursurping authority over anyone when she says the things she does . SHE is not my pastor , She is simply encouraging us on . But no woman can be in that position of authority , like a deacon , bishop , apostle, preacher etc. those positions are men only . women can prophesy , YOU BET they can . they can share knowledge , YOU BET THEY CAN . so anything being done on internet IS okay for all our ladies . None of them are saying I AM OVER YOU . they just sharing truth is all. And all whether male for female CAN DO THAT . Our churches are not following Biblical order today. A Pastor was not a Bishop in the early church, but the job description of Bishop has been given to pastors. As such, in most churches, women are not qualified to be the Pastor, but they could fill that role if they were not the acting Bishop. The Bishop is the one that handles the day to day running of a church. I believe that whatever the office is, we should follow the Biblical requirements. The scripture about women being silent in the church has to do with not being a disruption asking their husbands questions while the service is going on. If she has any questions, she is to ask her husband at home. That clearly has nothing to do with a woman making sounds singing, testifying, teaching, preaching, or the like. I agree that men should have short hair and women should have long hair, but it is not a sin issue. It is an outward sign that the man and woman are in submission to their spiritual authority. When I have short hair as a man, it is showing I am in submission to Christ. When a woman has long hair, it shows she is in submission to her husband and therefore the Lord Jesus Christ. When a man or woman doesn't follow this teaching, it is a shame to their spiritual head.
|
|
|
Post by John on May 11, 2018 13:42:07 GMT -5
They have broken the 2nd commandment, making a god to their own preferences...sad. If God doesn't fit what people think He should be like (and Christians are guilty of this), they try to change Him to fit what they want Him to be and think He should be, rather than asking Him to help them to understand His reasons and give them His perspective (which is the right one), and accepting that He is God and not them. We need to submit to GOD He doesnt submit to anyone.... People get this so wrong... In a way they serve a false god, the creation of their own imagination. How many times have you heard a person say something like, "if God is this way or that way, it is not the kind of God I can believe in?" As such, they create a god more to their liking, that is not the God of the Bible.
|
|
|
Post by tlsitd on May 11, 2018 13:46:41 GMT -5
<< Women are not to be participating in the worship service with the brothers, but quiet observers and participants in spirit. >> Often this is to be the case, unless the Spirit of Christ unctions them otherwise. There is a difference between a woman in the flesh and a spiritually mature woman unctioned by the Holy Spirit. << (So says the word of God, not just me.) >> Please bring the scriptures on these things, sister....I am open to hearing them. Blessed is the man who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves. But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin. (Romans 14:22,23)
As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.
Or was it from you that the word of God came? Or are you the only ones it has reached? If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord. (1 Corinthians 14:33-37)
(If you want to take chances in this matter, by interpreting the instructions about this beyond what is written and believing that there are exceptions, when there are no Scriptural examples of or instructions for exceptions given, in any epistle, that is between you and the Lord. I don't recommend doing so. It's deception to believe that the Holy Spirit leads Christians to do things that are contrary to the express commands of the Lord in non-disputable matters, under any circumstance.)
|
|
|
Post by John on May 11, 2018 14:03:02 GMT -5
I agree. We need to understand what the Bible is saying and meaning and follow it. A prophet, like Deborah for instance, is merely a messenger, giving a direct word from God to a person. It is not her words or instructions. It would be like a woman opening the Bible and reading scripture word for word as it says, and not giving any personal opinions. She is not really instructing a man as much as telling him what God said.
As to the subject of women teaching, I have no problem with it as being a Sunday School teacher or preacher. What women are instructed not to do is usurp her husband's authority in the home and be his instructor. That goes back to Adam and Eve, and how Adam wound up submitting to Eve over God. She is not to be his spiritual teacher. She is told to be in submission to her own husband. This has nothing to do with God's ability to call a woman to the office of Pastor, Teacher, Apostle, Evangelist or Prophet. Those offices have no specific qualifications but to be called of God.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 11, 2018 16:04:03 GMT -5
I find that very involved discussions like these are difficult over the internet, and tiring. I think I will make this my last comment in response to your post and will just have to leave it there, otherwise we could go on forever. << Blessed is the man who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves. But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin. (Romans 14:22,23) >> I am not sure how the above scripture applies to this generally. However I am not doubting about this: Gal 3:27-28 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. << As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church. >> Taking it in the right context....which I know we are not agreeing on at the moment. << I agree. We need to understand what the Bible is saying and meaning and follow it. A prophet, like Deborah for instance, is merely a messenger, giving a direct word from God to a person. It is not her words or instructions. It would be like a woman opening the Bible and reading scripture word for word as it says, and not giving any personal opinions. She is not really instructing a man as much as telling him what God said. >> Are you agreeing that women can prophesy in the church then sister....because actually this is the point I was making about a woman unctioned by the Spirit and giving a prophecy or word, that it is not taking authority over anyone. And Deborah was not just a prophetess, she was a judge, that is why I mentioned her as an exception, to show how the Lord sometimes breaks "rules" according to His own discretion and sovereign rule (the Headship of Christ under the new covenant via the Holy Spirit...He blows where He willeth, as long as its not a sin question, of course He would not lead anyone to sin). Jdg 4:4 And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time. To me it is not taking chances at all, if we are led by the Spirit and where the leadership exercises true discernment. If the Holy Spirit is not present and unctioning anyone, then agree that the women not bring words out of their flesh but remain silent. And what are we going to do when He unctions children....are they allowed to speak? I am still not sure where you got the concept of church "services" from though. Here is what I believe Jesus calls church: "Wherever two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst." Informal simplicity. Seek the Lord together, pray, worship, sing, preach and teach the word, prophesy, testify, break bread, minister...largely as the Lord leads by His Spirit (which I know is an ideal situation and not always manifest, or in varying degrees). Anyway, that's about all I have to say this round. Bless you.
|
|
|
Post by John on May 11, 2018 17:59:15 GMT -5
I find that very involved discussions like these are difficult over the internet, and tiring. I think I will make this my last comment in response to your post and will just have to leave it there, otherwise we could go on forever. << Blessed is the man who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves. But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin. (Romans 14:22,23) >> I am not sure how the above scripture applies to this generally. However I am not doubting about this: Gal 3:27-28 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. << As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church. >> Taking it in the right context....which I know we are not agreeing on at the moment. << I agree. We need to understand what the Bible is saying and meaning and follow it. A prophet, like Deborah for instance, is merely a messenger, giving a direct word from God to a person. It is not her words or instructions. It would be like a woman opening the Bible and reading scripture word for word as it says, and not giving any personal opinions. She is not really instructing a man as much as telling him what God said. >> Are you agreeing that women can prophesy in the church then sister....because actually this is the point I was making about a woman unctioned by the Spirit and giving a prophecy or word, that it is not taking authority over anyone. And Deborah was not just a prophetess, she was a judge, that is why I mentioned her as an exception, to show how the Lord sometimes breaks "rules" according to His own discretion and sovereign rule (the Headship of Christ under the new covenant via the Holy Spirit...He blows where He willeth, as long as its not a sin question, of course He would not lead anyone to sin). Jdg 4:4 And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time. To me it is not taking chances at all, if we are led by the Spirit and where the leadership exercises true discernment. If the Holy Spirit is not present and unctioning anyone, then agree that the women not bring words out of their flesh but remain silent. And what are we going to do when He unctions children....are they allowed to speak? I am still not sure where you got the concept of church "services" from though. Here is what I believe Jesus calls church: "Wherever two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst." Informal simplicity. Seek the Lord together, pray, worship, sing, preach and teach the word, prophesy, testify, break bread, minister...largely as the Lord leads by His Spirit (which I know is an ideal situation and not always manifest, or in varying degrees). Anyway, that's about all I have to say this round. Bless you. Some comments I made got mixed in by accident with comments someone else made. I had to go back and edit two of my posts because I had overlooked it earlier, and it was confusing. You might want to go back and see who said what. I mentioned how women can speak in the church because when the Bible was telling a woman to keep silent, it meant not to cause a disturbance. I also mentioned how it is her husband she is not to usurp authority over and become his spiritual leader. There clearly are New Testament churches, and naturally, they would have services, though they may not have resembled what we have today.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 11, 2018 18:35:57 GMT -5
Oh thanks for the heads-up.....sorry I guess I was looking at Butero's quote of tlsitd instead of her direct post. Hope what I wrote isn't too confusing then! lol. I think the issue is mainly with authority....and there is reason for that...being that Eve was the one deceived, not Adam. So it is in everybody's best interests for women generally to be under the oversight of male leadership in the church, and not to teach or have authority over the men. And i agree Butero, that the women being in silence issue is not a strict across-the-board rule, since they are allowed to pray and prophesy in the churches. It is in regards to being disruptive as you mentioned and teaching.
|
|