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Post by tlsitd on May 11, 2018 20:04:41 GMT -5
I find that very involved discussions like these are difficult over the internet, and tiring. (I agree.) I think I will make this my last comment in response to your post and will just have to leave it there, otherwise we could go on forever. << Blessed is the man who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves. But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin. (Romans 14:22,23) >> I am not sure how the above scripture applies to this generally. (I think I explained it clearly in the post preceding the last one: Whatever does not proceed from faith is sin, whether it's how and what we eat or something else.) However I am not doubting about this: Gal 3:27-28 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. This has to do with our heirship in Christ, the Offspring to whom God's promises to Abraham pertain, not with authority, or with there not being different roles and rules for Christian men and Christian women. (See also 1 Peter 3:7.)<< As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church. >> Taking it in the right context....which I know we are not agreeing on at the moment. (I maintain my position on the matter. You're free to disagree with it. You're not going to give an account to me for what you do. You need to know for yourself and be sure of what Jesus wants you to do, as I mentioned in my previous replies.)<< I agree. We need to understand what the Bible is saying and meaning and follow it. A prophet, like Deborah for instance, is merely a messenger, giving a direct word from God to a person. It is not her words or instructions. It would be like a woman opening the Bible and reading scripture word for word as it says, and not giving any personal opinions. She is not really instructing a man as much as telling him what God said. >> I do not know all of what Deborah's judgeship entailed (the Scriptures don't go into detail, except to say that the people came to her for judgement---God's judgment presumably---and that she was a prophetess), but I do know that her judgeship wasn't a precedent for female leadership, or intended to be used as support for such. Deborah's judgeship as a prophetess in the Old Testament doesn't have anything to do with God's commands for how women are to behave in the churches and what they are permitted and not permitted to do according to the doctrine of the New Testament.Are you agreeing that women can prophesy in the church then sister (No.)....because actually this is the point I was making about a woman unctioned by the Spirit and giving a prophecy or word, that it is not taking authority over anyone. And Deborah was not just a prophetess, she was a judge, that is why I mentioned her as an exception, to show how the Lord sometimes breaks "rules" according to His own discretion and sovereign rule (the Headship of Christ under the new covenant via the Holy Spirit...He blows where He willeth, as long as its not a sin question, of course He would not lead anyone to sin). That Scripture from John chapter 3 comparing the Holy Spirit to the wind definitely does not mean that God does whatever He pleases through those who are born of Him contrary to His own commands, which would be God leading someone to sin. The wind is invisible, as the Spirit is invisible, and you hear the wind, like you hear God from those who are born of Him, even though you do not see Him; and an unsaved person does not know where those who are born of God come from (heaven, figuratively speaking) or where they are going (heaven), because the truths of the Spirit are strange to him and he doesn't recognize them as coming from God, who he does not know, just like you don't know where the wind comes from or where it is going. (The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know Him. 1 John 3:1) God directs and manifests Himself in and through those who are born of Him; and they certainly do (or should do, if they are following Him) whatever He wills; but it would not be His will for a Christian to violate one of His commands. He doesn't do that, and Jesus wasn't suggesting this by what He said about the wind blowing where it wills.
(And Christ is the head of Christian men, not of Christian women (1 Corinthians 11:3; Ephesians 5:22-24)).
Jdg 4:4 And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time. To me it is not taking chances at all, if we are led by the Spirit and where the leadership exercises true discernment. If the Holy Spirit is not present and unctioning anyone, then agree that the women not bring words out of their flesh but remain silent. And what are we going to do when He unctions children....are they allowed to speak? I understand what you're saying, but God, being consistent with His word in how He works, and not contradicting it, would not lead or 'unction' a woman to prophesy or speak in church, contrary to His commands about women keeping silent in the churches, anymore than He would prompt a woman to disobey her husband, or a child to disobey his parents, in order to do His will. (Luke 2:49-51.) The instructions for prophesying in church are for men, not women. A woman might THINK she is being prompted by the Holy Spirit to speak in the church service (and Christians can believe that the Holy Spirit is prompting them to do all sorts of things that He actually isn't), but she would simply be deceived in the matter; as would a woman who believes that Jesus has called her to be a pastor or an evangelist (which is a male gift and calling, not a female one, and involves not only preaching the gospel but also instructing the converts in the teachings of the faith, which God does not call or permit women to do.)
I am still not sure where you got the concept of church "services" from though. Here is what I believe Jesus calls church: "Wherever two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst." (Jesus being in the midst of a group of believers who are gathered together does not make that gathering "church". A church meeting (not THE church, as in the body of Christ) is a specific kind of meeting, for worship and instruction carried out by the brothers under the authority of elders or a pastor, and the brothers taking part in the Lord's supper. And for such meetings and worship services there are specific instructions. Not for all gatherings of believers but for this specific kind. Informal simplicity. Seek the Lord together, pray, worship, sing, preach and teach the word, prophesy, testify, break bread, minister...largely as the Lord leads by His Spirit (which I know is an ideal situation and not always manifest, or in varying degrees). Anyway, that's about all I have to say this round. Bless you. May Jesus bless you also, and give you whatever understanding you may need of Him to do His perfect will.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2018 9:56:46 GMT -5
Thanks sister....I understand what you are saying about different kinds of gatherings, and I am only talking about the kind under discussion here, and was trying to show that we are not to depart from the simplicity that is in Christ, since we are no longer under an old testament paradigm. That is the only way He remains as Head of His Body in actuality, and not only in theory.
Also need to understand that authority in the church is not the same as authority that is wielded in the world.
Women are to let the men lead the gatherings and teach, while the women remain submitted to and under the covering of their spiritual authority, but I don't believe the bible is teaching a strict insistence on complete silence and non-participation at all times, if the Spirit is unctioning otherwise, and all things are done decently and in order.
The comments in the epistles regarding silence for women is not a carved in stone kind of law, but it is forbidding fleshly talk, teaching and authority over men, and distracting from what the Holy Spirit is doing. Otherwise the word is at odds with itself.
I believe it is error to take the epistles to have been addressed only to the men.....that needs to be looked at.....because terms like mankind, man, brethren in the bible ENCOMPASSES womenkind as well.
(A little bit of wisdom is this: in His image made He THEM because it's not good for man to be alone....the influence of womankind is needed....certainly not dominance, but just our part of UN-MUZZLED humble influence.)
And to us all I want to mention a caution.....since we are to examine fruits.....that the fruits of churches and religions which over-emphasize the obedience and silence of women historically have been appalling, in those places where women are basically non-entities in church life. The women suffer needlessly while the men lose their eternal souls. It's very easy for women to be prone to a self-righteous and unhealthy kind of self-subjugating martyr compex.... which is bondage (sin) in itself.....we see this in groups like Catholicism, Islam and Mormonism and I think we are all aware of the kinds of abuses and oppression of both women and children that run rampant where we see these things enforced so strictly.
It's so important to get hold of the mind of Christ (His SPIRIT) on these things. The Body of Christ NEEDS the eyes and voices of the women, we form about half of the Body of Christ, and things can get twisted and askew quite quickly where only one half of the Body is functioning. I just think we need to be aware of the dark side of this kind of teaching. But somewhere in the middle is the mind of the Spirit, the right balance, which I just pray we can apprehend in both understanding and practice.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on May 12, 2018 10:17:04 GMT -5
And to us all I want to mention a caution.....since we are to examine fruits.....that the fruits of churches and religions which over-emphasize the obedience and silence of women historically have been appalling, in those places where women are basically non-entities in church life. The women suffer needlessly while the men lose their eternal souls. It's very easy for women to be prone to a self-righteous and unhealthy kind of self-subjugating martyr compex.... which is bondage (sin) in itself.....we see this in groups like Catholicism, Islam and Mormonism and I think we are all aware of the kinds of abuses and oppression of both women and children that run rampant where we see these things enforced so strictly.. Here's how I've seen this thing play out... an older woman starts up a little support group in her home where she can mentor young women on things like marriage, friendship, motherhood, etc (Titus 2:3-4). It usually starts with her wanting to disciple her own daughter, niece, etc. She must constantly bend over backwards to convince her pastor that she's not trying to become a deacon and she doesn't want to teach men. The little group grows in popularity. She can no longer host everyone in her house. She moves it to a classroom at church. The church reluctantly agrees, and spies show up at a few meetings to make sure these women aren't teaching feminist rebellion. This lasts for six months or so. A visitor is offended by some correction she doesn't like, or someone makes a beeline to gossip about a juicy little bad joke, or someone's teenage daughter fancies herself the doctrine police, or the church "can no longer" afford the cost of extra heat in the building, and next thing you know, the group breaks up. The pastors and deacons (who are all busy professional men over the age of 40) don't have their fingers on the pulse of unmarried college-age girls in their church. These young ladies return to being undisciplined. They get a few vague sermons on marriage from the pastor sometimes, but they won't approach an old man who barely remembers their name for private counsel on purity. They soon meet a cute guy and stop attending church.
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Post by frienduff on May 12, 2018 15:49:38 GMT -5
And this is in the bible . let the elder women TEACH the younger women , etc. THEY are TO DO THIS . NOW lets raise those hands up and praise the LORD . You loved sister as all are loved .
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2018 17:01:29 GMT -5
That is sad PG4.......Christendom is in a dreadful state, that's for sure. Flesh gets a hold of things like this and wields it to its own advantage. If it wasn't an issue with what was being taught......then I guess we can guess what the reasons were.....power and control, jealousy. Sad.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on May 12, 2018 17:53:47 GMT -5
Our enemy rarely attacks us with outright falsehood. It’s usually the exploitation of a half truth. Shaky doctrinal positions give him a great deal of ammo to fire at the church. Thousands of innocent women have recently been driven out of church by the words “Jezebel spirit.” When they leave, so do their gifts, their anointings, and their intercession. Churches end up more vulnerable to attack.
The women who stick around usually survive by keeping their mouth shut and doing whatever the pastor says. This has produced a generation of disaffected, disinvolved spiritual babies who could not fight their way out of a paper bag. Make no mistake, this is by design.
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Post by frienduff on May 12, 2018 20:03:42 GMT -5
But it all ends on our watch . We here are going to LOVE THE LORD and one another and keep HIS PATTERN and HIS sayings . By the grace OF our LORD and the power of His might . Now one and all, RAISE those hands to the LORD .
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Post by justinadams on May 13, 2018 6:43:46 GMT -5
(I believe this is important for Christians to understand, because understanding the truth eliminates confusion and error in the practice of our faith, which makes us more fruitful and powerful as saints and more pleasing to the Lord for knowing and doing what His will actually is, and also knowing what it is not.)
You have a great deal of courage to say this. I am afraid I have seen multiple case of 'evangelists' that make me feel uneasy. I know that some do not like this at all and the notion of chauvinism is a much used concept.
When I actually witness the quiet strength of a true lady, I feel kinda small. And that is as it should be because the strength of a woman is not in her tongue, but in her attitude and her humility.
I think the Lord mentions somewhere that this pleases Him immensely.
I recall the story of a little old lady. She rose to her full five foot nothing height and confronted the gunman that towered over her. In a firm quiet voice she said - "DROP IT AND GO". He did just that... amazing!!!
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Post by John on May 13, 2018 12:24:48 GMT -5
Our enemy rarely attacks us with outright falsehood. It’s usually the exploitation of a half truth. Shaky doctrinal positions give him a great deal of ammo to fire at the church. Thousands of innocent women have recently been driven out of church by the words “Jezebel spirit.” When they leave, so do their gifts, their anointings, and their intercession. Churches end up more vulnerable to attack. The women who stick around usually survive by keeping their mouth shut and doing whatever the pastor says. This has produced a generation of disaffected, disinvolved spiritual babies who could not fight their way out of a paper bag. Make no mistake, this is by design. Most of the time, when I hear the term, "Jezebel spirit," it is referring to someone in rebellion. You aren't describing rebellion, unless the authorities forbad the meetings. It sounds more like jealousy in that someone was seeing possibly more fruit in their ministry than the leadership. My wife was doing something with the youth and had the same kind of experiences with spies going in and others trying to take control of her ministry. That was a Church of God.
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Post by John on May 13, 2018 12:33:56 GMT -5
(I believe this is important for Christians to understand, because understanding the truth eliminates confusion and error in the practice of our faith, which makes us more fruitful and powerful as saints and more pleasing to the Lord for knowing and doing what His will actually is, and also knowing what it is not.) You have a great deal of courage to say this. I am afraid I have seen multiple case of 'evangelists' that make me feel uneasy. I know that some do not like this at all and the notion of chauvinism is a much used concept. When I actually witness the quiet strength of a true lady, I feel kinda small. And that is as it should be because the strength of a woman is not in her tongue, but in her attitude and her humility. I think the Lord mentions somewhere that this pleases Him immensely. I recall the story of a little old lady. She rose to her full five foot nothing height and confronted the gunman that towered over her. In a firm quiet voice she said - "DROP IT AND GO". He did just that... amazing!!! God will call someone to do something, they are successful and growing, and the leadership will feel jealous and feel the need to take it over after someone else did all the work. After they take control of it, and oppress those who are doing the actual work, the ministry falls apart. I believe strongly in obeying the leadership, and there can be someone in a church, male or female, with a rebellious spirit, but that is not what I see taking place in the example Candance gave. What I see is the leadership getting suspicious about how this ministry they are not directly leading is doing so well. Some people feel that they must be the center of attention at all times, so they will destroy the work of the Lord, and scatter the sheep. It is a shame.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on May 13, 2018 12:55:48 GMT -5
Of course I believe there is a spirit of rebellion that uses people to undermine pastors. Spiritual rebellion is a real thing. Women who blatantly subvert men are rebellious. However, this whole rebellion thing, especially the Jezebel spirit, has become a catch-all way to dismiss anyone with a strong opinion.
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Post by justinadams on May 18, 2018 5:27:08 GMT -5
Prescriptions are for pharmacists. Right? (a peeve you might say)
We humans take a little time to form ideas and opinions. It took me quite some time to understand the complex control systems I used to install and service. In the end, I wrote manuals and illustrated technical descriptions to use for training seminars I would perform. I was forever refining the documents as better and newer components were used.
So why do we, as Christians, have to have a One-Step, Two-Step, Three-Step, Four... approach to spiritual understanding? I do seem to naturally object to prescriptive simplicity by some that think they are teachers.
As far as I have understood thus far, it is 'line upon line', 'precept upon precept', 'here a little, there a little'. Always trying to listen to that small voice from behind that says, 'this is the way, walk ye in it'.
The last time I went to a Christian book store I saw one half-rack of scriptures, and dozens of racks of opinions and commentaries - not to mention the overwhelming number of prophesy publications.
Has anyone else noticed this?
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Post by John on May 18, 2018 6:44:19 GMT -5
Prescriptions are for pharmacists. Right? (a peeve you might say) We humans take a little time to form ideas and opinions. It took me quite some time to understand the complex control systems I used to install and service. In the end, I wrote manuals and illustrated technical descriptions to use for training seminars I would perform. I was forever refining the documents as better and newer components were used. So why do we, as Christians, have to have a One-Step, Two-Step, Three-Step, Four... approach to spiritual understanding? I do seem to naturally object to prescriptive simplicity by some that think they are teachers. As far as I have understood thus far, it is 'line upon line', 'precept upon precept', 'here a little, there a little'. Always trying to listen to that small voice from behind that says, 'this is the way, walk ye in it'. The last time I went to a Christian book store I saw one half-rack of scriptures, and dozens of racks of opinions and commentaries - not to mention the overwhelming number of prophesy publications. Has anyone else noticed this? That is because there are many Christians that have never read the Bible through, even once, but they have read dozens of books about what the Bible teaches. People are too lazy to seek God for answers, so they would rather seek the opinion of men. Hermeneutics is a way people place scripture in a box. You must interpret it according to these laws of literature to supposedly get the right interpretation, but God never said that. We understand the Bible through personal reading and study, and the assistance of the Holy Spirit who was sent to lead us into all truth.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on May 18, 2018 7:40:45 GMT -5
And now for a reference to The Screwtape Letters!
The great thing is to prevent his doing anything. As long as he does not convert it into action, it does not matter how much he thinks about this new repentance. Let the little brute wallow in it. Let him, if he has any bent that way, write a book about it; that is often an excellent way of sterilising the seeds which the Enemy plants in a human soul. Let him do anything but act. No amount of piety in his imagination and affections will harm us if we can keep it out of his will.
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