|
Post by Sister on May 10, 2018 4:26:10 GMT -5
Where do I begin?
I think this would be a good place, lets start here;
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Is there a difference between the two?
Does one have preference over the other?
1 Corinthians 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Colossians 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Ephesians 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
Colossians 3:24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.
Colossians 3:25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.
1 Peter 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
Romans 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Romans 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
What’s the message here?
Do we trust Pauls word?
Follow this carefully. Don't throw this all away or forget. Paul is laying a foundation here. This is what a precept is. We build knowledge on this. Keep in mind when we get to Revelation.
|
|
|
Post by Sister on May 10, 2018 7:39:19 GMT -5
Revelation 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
All we know from this scripture is that
1. Nothing is to be harmed until they they are sealed (before the wrath begins/7 angels) 2. They are servants of God. 3. There are 144,000 only 4. They are from all the tribes of the children of Israel.
and we learn a little more here about them;
Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
Revelation 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
Revelation 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Revelation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
Revelation 14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
1. The Lamb stood on Mt Sion and with him only the 144K 2. They have the Father's name written on their foreheads 3. They sung "as it were" a new song before the throne 4. No man could learn that song but the hundred and forty four thousand. 5. They are redeemed from the earth 6. They are not defiled with women, they are virgins. 7. THEY FOLLOW THE LAMB WHITHERSOEVER HE GOES 8. They are the firstfruits unto God and the Lamb 9. In their mouth was found no guile, they are without fault before the throne of God.
Who are they? Are they the firstfruits of the remnants of Israel or the firstfruits of the resurrection?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 11, 2018 5:41:31 GMT -5
Sister, the 144,000 seems to be a symbolic number for New Jerusalem....the pure spotless Bride of Christ, prepared for the wedding......twelve is the number of New Jerusalem, her walls, gates and foundations....12 x 12 = 144 I'm not sure but the fact that there are thousands might be symbolic for there being many/multitudes ("He is coming with ten thousands of His saints"), or maybe it means something more.
Rev 21:12-17
And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
|
|
|
Post by frienduff on May 11, 2018 8:34:58 GMT -5
In one place it says Christ IS the first fruit unto GOD . the one hundred and forty four thousand are of jewish birth , they are IN CHRIST it lists the twelve tribes , Manasseh is in place of dan. Then it speaks of a whole multitude from all nations also . Also in two places in revelations it speaks of the CITY . notice two things first it says twelve tribes of children of Israel then it also says twelve foundations . FOUNDATIONS the names of the APOSTELS . it sums up the City as being both beleving jews and gentiles and the very foundation of the apostels is mentioned and we KNOW JESUS IS the CORNER STONE from which all is built . Jesus being the first fruit unto GOD , and the hundred an forty four thousand being redeemed FROM THE EARTH as first fruits and they were born jews and then became TRUE JEWS , cause it sure does say THEY FOLLOW the LAMB. I notice something peculiar about the one hundred and forty four thousand . AND it makes this specific. IT says they are VIRGINS. andthat means what it says . An example would be like paul . He never married , and he speaks of how all dedication without distraction unto the Lord . I truly believe it means what it says, they were born jews by flesh , became born again true jews , and are as paul was , not married but single . And they were accoriding to flesh born a jew , not gentile . its too specific.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 11, 2018 8:47:58 GMT -5
I don't know if this will help shed some light on this........but where scripture says the 12 apostles will rule over the twelve tribes of Israel.....remember that they are the twelve apostles to the CHURCH (spiritual Israel). And because Israel is our ensample....the church is made up of 12 twelve tribes as well (pertaining to gifts of the Spirit, not geographical groups).
Though, I will add that to me this doesn't eliminate the possibility that this will apply to natural Israel AS WELL, in the millennium, where Sister was showing the redeemed glorified church (including and under the 'oversight' of the 12 apostles) ministering to the survivors of Israel.
|
|
|
Post by Sister on May 11, 2018 10:14:44 GMT -5
Thanks guys,
Are they the firstfruits the remnants of Israel, or the firstfruits of the resurrection?
|
|
|
Post by Sister on May 14, 2018 4:22:33 GMT -5
Thanks guys,Are they the firstfruits the remnants of Israel, or the firstfruits of the resurrection? Hi everyone I only asked this question because it holds the key to solving this mystery.
|
|
|
Post by John on May 14, 2018 5:01:10 GMT -5
Thanks guys,Are they the firstfruits the remnants of Israel, or the firstfruits of the resurrection? I would say it is likely speaking of the firstfruits of the remnants of Israel, because we know the people being described are natural Jews. I am not saying that with absolute certainty, but it would appear that is the case. Nobody in this group are from gentile nations, and the tribulation period is for the purpose of seeing the Jews, who for the most part, have been spiritually blind, come to Christ.
|
|
|
Post by 2fw8212a on May 14, 2018 7:21:51 GMT -5
Are they the firstfruits the remnants of Israel, or the firstfruits of the resurrection? Of Israel. OK, after thinking about it... I will change it to resurrection.
|
|
|
Post by Sister on May 15, 2018 3:29:27 GMT -5
Thanks guys,Are they the firstfruits the remnants of Israel, or the firstfruits of the resurrection? I would say it is likely speaking of the firstfruits of the remnants of Israel, because we know the people being described are natural Jews. I am not saying that with absolute certainty, but it would appear that is the case. Nobody in this group are from gentile nations, and the tribulation period is for the purpose of seeing the Jews, who for the most part, have been spiritually blind, come to Christ. I have been going through a lot of Israel's geneology for quite a while, and surprisingly I have found that Abraham's wife Sarah was a Hittite (Canaanite). Judah married a Canaanite woman also. Joseph was given an Egyptian woman to marry as far as I can tell, (not 100% certain yet) and we also know that Ephraim became Samaria, so mixed again. The original tribes were of mixed blood to begin with, and over the years they have mingled even more. But we know that a Jew back then was called a Jew if he followed in the commandments and ordinances give by Moses, and any stranger that followed in their tradition who wished to serve the Lord God with all his heart was also counted as a Jew. I found all that interesting. So considering there are no tribes today, how many gentiles are descendants of the tribes without even knowing it? Not trying to mish mash it all up, because Israel is Israel today, we know the difference, and they do not accept Christ but are still waiting on the promises given to their fathers. Going back to the firstruits of the remnants of Israel. I did a thread a while ago called "the 1000 years of Rest". In that thread I gave scripture proving that the remnants of Israel come into the kingdom by word of mouth, and that the gentiles will grant them safe passage through the highways the Lord will set up for them. Those coming from Assyria will cross over the Egyptian sea, as God will smite it in 7 places, and they shall come over "dryshod" just like they did when they were coming out of Egypt. This will take time to round them up as they are scattered all over the earth. This proves that the remnants of Israel are not in the resurrection of the saints, because they will remain "flesh". That snippet we are given of them "standing" on Mt Zion with the Father's name on their forehead means they have already known the Father, and are without fault before the throne of God because they are "perfected saints". Flesh is not perfected but has to learn.
|
|
|
Post by Sister on May 15, 2018 3:31:48 GMT -5
Are they the firstfruits the remnants of Israel, or the firstfruits of the resurrection? Of Israel. OK, after thinking about it... I will change it to resurrection. I think your gut feeling was good but requires some more info, so I shall continue with my post.
|
|
|
Post by Sister on May 15, 2018 4:18:49 GMT -5
Without a doubt, there is something special about the 144,000….from the sealing of them in Rev 7, to the vision of them standing with Christ on the mount Sion (Kingdom of God) in chapter 14. That seal on their foreheads, is because they know the Father through his Son, the Lord Jesus, and they have been set apart from the rest of the flock because God has a plan for them.
Matthew 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; ………neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
Concentrate on these words above very carefully. Lets not skim over that too quickly and just assume all of us in the faith of Christ have been revealed, because Christ is telling us something here. We need to go back to our doctrine and check that it makes sense and that we are not just parroting something taught to us. (just something to think about later)
Regardless, the saints make their absolute entrance into the kingdom of God through the resurrection, at their change, when Christ comes with his reward. If we are standing in that resurrection, it is official, and we have inherited all things that belong to the Father ... The surviving remnants of Israel, on the other hand will enter the kingdom "on earth" not through the resurrection for they are still flesh, and will be drawn in another way. Remember this is not a reward for them, for they knew not Christ, nor the Father, but because of mercy and God's promise to their fathers, Christ will lead them to him, and they will come.
The remnants of Israel.
In “The Thousand Years” thread, I gave quite a few scriptures proving that after Christ takes dominion of the earth, these living remnants of Israel (survivors of Armageddon) who are scattered throughout the whole earth make their way into the Kingdom on foot, and by swift beasts, and chariots, and mules etc. The Lord will prepare a highway for them, and they will come via that route, exactly the same way they came out of Egypt. The Lord will call for them and the gentiles will escort them safe passage as an offering to the Lord. So you can see they are not in the resurrection, and do not all come at once, but it will take time because they are “flesh”.
Do these remnants of Israel appear to have the same honour of the 144,000 who followed the Lamb?
No.
We can rule out the remnants of Israel being the 144K, because it does not agree with scripture. This is a fact.
Therefore the 144K, are the FIRSTFRUITS of the RESURRECTION of the SAINTS. A small group caught up to Christ FIRST, just before the resurrection of the multitude take place.
Why?
Because they follow the Lamb wheresoever he goes. That’s why. They are CHRISTIANS. Not Christian Jews, but Christians full stop whether they be Jew or Gentile.
Now take into account how many times in the NT we were told that there is no difference between Jew or Greek (gentile), that there is not even a preference over male and female, bond or free, for all serve in the one spirit of Christ? God is not a respecter of persons, this was also stated and he doesn’t care what our race is as long as we accept his Son and let him Shepherd us.
So how many times do we have to be told that there is no preference when it comes to Christ? A Jew does not get preference over the gentile and visa versa, so why on earth would the 144K be Jews? Are not the gentiles heirs of the promises also?
Ephesians 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
So we have to ask ourselves WHY WOULD WE THROW AWAY WHAT WE WERE FIRST TAUGHT before even knowing about the 144K in Revelation? Was a foundation laid for us, then God changed his mind? Does he do that ….really?
If the God we are serving has sent out liars amongst the apostles then we might as well throw away our bibles.
......But we know that they were sent out to teach us and lay the foundations.
Precept upon precept, line apon line.
And this is where we fall.
Cornered.
Isaiah 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
By John stating that the 144K who are numbered out of the tribes of the children of Israel and that there is a preference over Jew and Gentiles is a complete contradiction of scripture. Did God suddenly change his mind and go back on what he told us?
No he doesn't do that, so the problem is not with what is written, but is with OUR UNDERSTANDING.
Are not the gentiles grafted in also now, and are counted amongst the tribes?
Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
That’s the true Jew now. The one who has circumsized his heart and conformed it to Christ's spirit, whether we are Jew or gentile, bond or fee, male or female. The scriptures are crystal clear.
I am going to be a blunt as possible
Considering Christ already told us that God is going to provoke Israel to jealousy by a nation that was not called by him(the gentiles), and the first will be last, and last first, meaning Israel will receive their salvation last, and the gentiles first, because Israel rejected Christ.....then not only are the 144k more likely to be gentiles, but all the tribes also! Everything has switched. Israel are not part of that first resurrection, and they are not the same tribes of Israel listed in the OT. Ephraim who I already mentioned are the gentiles, because Ephraim came from Joseph, and Joseph had two sons. Ephraim was one of them who became Samaria. They are the mixed Jews which became the gentile Christians.
EPHRAIM IS SCATTERED THROUGHOUT ALL THE TRIBES because they have become Gentile Christians which is why they were not mentioned a tribe specifically.
Jeremiah 31:9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.
Manesseh was the older son, so why is Ephraim God's firstborn? Because God is using symbolism everywhere. The older (Israel) shall serve the younger (Gentiles)
Clues everywhere.
Israel's bloodline is not pure even going back to Abraham who married Sarah the Hittite. Judah married a canaanite woman. King Solomon had many concubines that were of "strange flesh". and David who had many wives, I don't know. Natural Israel back then was a mixed race and spiritual Israel today is the same.
Abraham was a father of many nations, physically and spiritually, and the tribes in Revelation are the ones counted for the promise.
The reason why this has been hidden from us is because we are not connecting scripture, and just reading over without even asking questions.
If something contradicts scripture we should always ask questions and try to figure it out using common sense and logic of all the scriptures we are reading.
I know this will take time to sink in and I have probably gone too far and deep here, so at least have a think about it, and go over all the scriptures again to confirm.
The 144,000 are the firstfruits of the resurrection, and not the remnants of Israel.
|
|
|
Post by Sister on May 15, 2018 6:10:10 GMT -5
A little bit more to share and think on.
Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion (the kingdom of God), and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads (The seal of God)
Revelation 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
Revelation 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
They sing "as it were" a new song. The song is not new, for the apostles were taught it first. This song is the true sound doctrine of the scriptures, pure and undefiled delivered to the last generation and only given to the 144K during their walk. It says no man could learn that song but them....however, the (song) doctrine would seem strange if one has not learnt it) So what about all the rest of the Christians? What song are they learning?
Revelation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
This is not speaking carnally. A married man is not defiled because he lays with his wife. Women = religion. The harlot of Babylon is a woman, and she has daughters, also women. From her many religions are born. They are spiritual virgins because they go with no other god. They are "redeemed" ...forgiven, washed clean.
They follow the Lamb wheresoever he goes. They follow "The Word of God". They are always in the Word, and the Word is always in them. The remnants of Israel do not follow "The Word of God" because they do not follow Christ, and if they did, they would not be called remnants but "saints".
Revelation 14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
No one is without fault. These are PERFECTED SAINTS. They have received their change.
Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
The Word of God is ALWAYS knocking at the door when he wants to show us something. He doesn't just come once, but comes often. Many times we don't answer the door to him.
Revelation 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
If we are not "thirsty" he will not give us more to drink. Simple.
|
|
|
Post by 2fw8212a on May 15, 2018 7:28:30 GMT -5
Revelation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
This is not speaking carnally. A married man is not defiled because he lays with his wife. Women = religion. The harlot of Babylon is a woman, and she has daughters, also women. From her many religions are born. They are spiritual virgins because they go with no other god. They are "redeemed" ...forgiven, washed clean.
They follow the Lamb wheresoever he goes. They follow "The Word of God". They are always in the Word, and the Word is always in them. The remnants of Israel do not follow "The Word of God" because they do not follow Christ, and if they did, they would not be called remnants but "saints".
OK, I have received the same understanding some time ago. I received it differently, but your interpretation is about the same.
And thank you very much for writing all this.
We may not be perfectly correct in everything, but without sharing with one another we will not even come near anyway.
Then, it is beneficial that we at least try. Your courage is appreciated!
God bless you abundantly, in Jesus' name!
|
|
|
Post by John on May 15, 2018 7:49:59 GMT -5
I can not say that I necessarily agree with every point you made Sister, but neither am I saying you are wrong. In the case of Abraham, his wife was his half sister, not of Canaan. Still, the truth remains that gentiles could and did become Jews by faith, like Ruth.
The 144,000 have been perplexing to me regarding the comment about not being defiled with women, but in the Old Testament, God would tell the men not to lay with their wives before coming into the presence of the Lord, so I am not sure about your spiritualizing that. The tribes must exist in the mind of God, as there are 12,000 of each tribe that make up the 144,000. When we become Jews by faith, I believe we are adopted into one of the twelve tribes.
I like the way you are willing to think outside the box of tradition to try to get at the truth.
|
|