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Post by Giller on Mar 5, 2019 11:27:35 GMT -5
This is just a thread, concerning the meaning of the actual word falling away.
But also people can mention things that they see, that is bringing in apostasy.
I know it has been talked about many times, but nevertheless, it is still a good issue to talk about so to stay alert.
I do not recall an actual thread on narrow way forums, were they actually talked about the meaning of the word itself.
Here is the scripture:
2Th 2:3 (3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Now in the Tyndale bible it is written like this:
2Th 2:3 3 Let no ma deceave you by eny meanes for the lorde commeth not excepte ther come a departynge fyrst and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne of perdicion
And old bibles have it as either falling away, or as a departure.
But I have read a comment from Tyndale on this verse, and the way he took it to mean, was that it was referring to a departure of the faith.
Now here is the Strong's meaning of it:
(Strong's concordance)
(G646
ἀποστασία apostasia ap-os-tas-ee'-ah
Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), (“apostasy”): - falling away, forsake. Total KJV occurrences: 2)
I believe that the falling away has to do with apostasy in the church, or many churches departing from the faith.
But there are some today who take it as referring to the rapture, which I find odd.
Now there is a preacher that I know of, who takes this word of falling away, as referring to the rapture, yet takes the scripture that mentions of many departing from the faith in the last days, as referring to a departure of the faith.
So here are things to think about.
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Post by John on Mar 5, 2019 11:41:09 GMT -5
I think it is saying that before the second coming occurs, there will be a falling away. People will turn away in large numbers from following Jesus according to truth.
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Post by Giller on Mar 5, 2019 13:21:36 GMT -5
2Th 2:1-8 (1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, (2) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. (3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. (5) Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? (6) And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. (7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. (8) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
Now there is a few interpretations of what verse 1 is actually talking about, which I will not get into at this very moment, maybe a bit later.
But one thing is for sure is that the coming mentioned in verse 8, is actually referring to the second coming.
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Post by Giller on Mar 5, 2019 13:26:25 GMT -5
Now we know that there are many doctrines that are contributing to the falling away.
And I think one of the major areas, is within the ecumenical movement, but one thing I would like for people to mention or talk about, is how are they doing it.
I think that the Catholic church in one form or another, is the major religious organisation that is being used towards the apostasy.
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Post by Giller on Mar 5, 2019 14:15:32 GMT -5
I think that the Vatican 2 council had a big play, in being one of the starting points in our modern day falling away, which sought dialogue with other religions including the protestants etc, but of course to bring protestantism under the Catholic church and it's ecumenical ism, which we can see she has done a good job of bringing many Christians under it's spell.
Here is a bit of info on the Vatican 2 council.
This is not in depth info, just general information.
(Encyclopedia Wikipedia)
(The Second Ecumenical Council of the Vatican, commonly known as the Second Vatican Council or Vatican II, addressed relations between the Catholic Church and the modern world.[2] The council, through the Holy See, was formally opened under the pontificate of Pope John XXIII on 11 October 1962 and was closed under Pope Paul VI on the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception on 8 December 1965.
Several changes resulted from the council, including the renewal of consecrated life with a revised charism, ecumenical efforts towards dialogue with other religions, and the universal call to holiness, which according to Pope Paul VI was "the most characteristic and ultimate purpose of the teachings of the Council".[3]...
...Of those who took part in the council's opening session, four have become popes: Cardinal Giovanni Battista Montini, who on succeeding John XXIII took the name Pope Paul VI; Bishop Albino Luciani, the future Pope John Paul I; Bishop Karol Wojtyła, who became Pope John Paul II; and Joseph Ratzinger, present as a theological consultant, who became Pope Benedict XVI.[6][7][8]...)
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Post by Giller on Mar 5, 2019 14:35:07 GMT -5
Now throughout church history there has always been some being revived, and others falling away, but I believe this specific falling away is an end times falling away.
In the 60's a good amount of churches were actually against ecumenicalism, and in this regard it seemed they had more discernment.
But these days, ecumenicalism is the norm, and even in the 90's there are some people who use to stand against ecumenicalsism that I personalty know, which today are in bed with it.
It seems that there was a type of disensitisation that gradually took place and has lead many to be in the place they are today.
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Post by frienduff on Mar 5, 2019 16:42:36 GMT -5
I think it is saying that before the second coming occurs, there will be a falling away. People will turn away in large numbers from following Jesus according to truth.
Butero , I know many men today that believe those men who translated the king james made errors . But we know THEY LIE don't we . So lets examine with Child like faith that word FALLING away . It means TO FALL and to FALL away . It does not mean the flying away or it would have said words to that effect . IT said , FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLING as in FALLING away. YOU RIGHT butero . And we don't need , desire nor want new greek . One thing I learned by grace and learned well, those men who wrote the kjv , KNEW what they were translating and they knew WHAT English words to put in place . Falling is the opposite of flying upwards . A bird flys , but we don't say the birds are falling through the sky . Falling means falling . YOU RIGHT . YOU RIGHT . YOU RIGHT . IT means a falling away. Away , yes , from sound doctrine , from Christ . AND all the apostels taught this would occur , specially near the end . You right butero . You spot on right . And now take a peek at christanity ,, Do we not see the greatest in number falling away to seducing spirits , falling away from JESUS as being the ONLY WAY falling away from a JESUS who said , IF you contine not in me , ye shall be cast out . WE SEE IT everwhere . WE who have eyes to see and ears to hear , WE SEE IT very clear .
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Post by Giller on Mar 6, 2019 0:08:55 GMT -5
I think it is saying that before the second coming occurs, there will be a falling away. People will turn away in large numbers from following Jesus according to truth.
I have been thinking a lot tonight, at work upon the Thessalonians scriptures, and concerning the part you mention about before the second coming occurs, there will be a falling away, I was thinking it was talking about before the rapture occurs, there shall be a falling away, but I am now reconsidering my position, I think you are right on this one. It was revealed more clearly to me tonight. Now of course we do see the falling away happening now, but it will just get worse and worse as we go on. And it does not specify when the falling away occurs, before the second coming, just that it will occur before the second coming. I will share more about other things later.
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Post by Giller on Mar 6, 2019 0:18:39 GMT -5
1Ti 4:1-3 (1) Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; (2) Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; (3) Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
I know that in the Catholic church, priests are still forbidden to marry, and they have all kinds of days were they abstain from meats such as certain times in Lent and advent etc.
And this church which practices these things are bringing many into it's false ecumenical movement, people are being seduced by spirits and doctrines of devils.
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Post by Giller on Mar 6, 2019 0:57:11 GMT -5
2Th 2:1-3 (1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, (2) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. (3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
I have read a while back, how some take the part that mentions the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ as referring to Christ's second coming, and the part that says by our gathering together unto him as referring to the rapture.
But I find this interpretation does not go well with verse 3, which shows that it is talking about 1 day, rather than 2 days.
So verse 1 is talking about 1 day.
And if we go to the previous chapter, it mentions this:
2Th 1:8-10 (8) In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: (9) Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; (10) When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
This is no doubt referring to the second coming.
Now back to 2 Thessalonians verse 1.
Now I know that at the rapture we do gather to meet Christ in the air, which is what I thought verse 1 was referring to, but also we know that Christ shall gather his saints together to come down with him at his second coming.
So there is a type of gathering in both scenarios.
And verse 3 shows that there was a deception going on here, concerning the day of Christ being at hand, which caused some to be troubled and shaken in mind, and whether they fully knew what the second coming was for or not, who knows.
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Post by Giller on Mar 6, 2019 1:10:30 GMT -5
************
2Th 2:3-6 (3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. (5) Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? (6) And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
So the second coming will not come except there come a falling away first, and the man of sin be revealed.
So these 2 things must happen before the second coming takes place.
And verse 6 is very interesting.
It says:"now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time".
How can they now know something?
They can only now know something, only if something was just revealed to them, so they can now know.
Here is what the word withhold means in the Strong's.
(Strong's concordance)
(G2722 κατέχω katechō kat-ekh'-o
From G2596 and G2192; to hold down (fast), in various applications (literally or figuratively): - have, hold (fast), keep (in memory), let, X make toward, possess, retain, seize on, stay, take, withhold. Total KJV occurrences: 19)
What was just revealed, that had to happen first, before the Antichrist could be revealed in who he is?
A falling away had to happen first.
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Post by Giller on Mar 6, 2019 1:53:10 GMT -5
************
2Th 2:7-8 (7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. (8) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
What is this mystery of iniquity, which was already working in Paul's time?
Well actually this mystery of iniquity was also working in Adam and Eve's time.
And Satan said through the serpent, that ye shall be as gods knowing good and evil, which represented men being independent from God, being their own gods, and no longer dependent on God, that was Satan's goal towards man, so that man be independent from God, this is the spirit of antichrist, and it is the spirit of antichrist that is this mystrery of iniquity which was working in Paul's day.
Now what is this only "he" who now letteth referring to?
There may be a lot of views on this, but I will only mention the 2 most popular views of today, and 1 popular view of the past, and then later a totally different view.
Now we have to remember the context of what it says, because many change the words to try to fit their doctrine.
It does not say that once he who now letteth is taken out of the way, then wickedness shall increase, it has nothing to do with wickedness increasing, but rather it says that once he who now letteth is taken out of the way, then shall that wicked be revealed.
It is talking about the revealing of a wicked one, rather than an increasing of wickedness.
The word letteth means this:
(Strong's concordance)
(G2722 κατέχω katechō kat-ekh'-o
From G2596 and G2192; to hold down (fast), in various applications (literally or figuratively): - have, hold (fast), keep (in memory), let, X make toward, possess, retain, seize on, stay, take, withhold.
Total KJV occurrences: 19)
What was this he who now letteth, letting until he be taken out of the way, and as a result of him being taken out of the way, the Antichrist gets revealed?
The 2 popular views of today is either the rapture of the church, or the Holy Spirit being taken out of the way.
Well we know that in the tribulation period that the Holy Spirit will still be here, for he will still be saving people, and the 2 witnesses will move in the power of God which requires the Holy Spirit, and there are many other things I could mention.
Now the Holy Spirit, does qualify as being an "he", but does not fit in being taken out at the time of the tribulation period.
Now what about the church? Well the church in the bible is referred to as a she, and not an "he", so she does not qualify as being an he.
And besides does the Holy Spirit or the church, truly hinder the Antichrist from being revealed in who he is?
Well think about it this way, who is the one that will reveal to people that the Antichrist is who he is? It will be the Holy Spirit that will, for he is the revealer of hidden works of darkness, and what about the church?
Well the church may be gone, but other people will get saved during this time, which will be the tribulation saints, and you could say they will be the tribulation church, so if they are the tribulation church, then why will they not hinder the revealing of the Antichrist, if the church is suppose to be "he" who letteth???
In fact the Holy Spirit will reveal to the tribulation church who the Antichrist is.
So are the two modern popular views really the right view???
And the old view which was popular in the early church to about the 1700's or maybe 1800's was the view of when the Roman empire fell, (taken out of the way), then ecclesiastical Rome arose (Roman Catholicism), and the Antichrist was revealed in the pope.
I do not subscribe to this view also, why? Because of what it says in this next verse:
2Th 2:6 (6) And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
He is suppose to be revealed in his time, when he comes on the scene, when he is alive, and not before hand.
And I think that there are many prophecies in the bible that are meant to be revealed at a certain time and not before hand.
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Cletus
Senior Member
Posts: 2,517
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Post by Cletus on Mar 6, 2019 2:22:07 GMT -5
if you look up the word for day/the day its hemera. this day is referring to the day of The LORD. in the OT it speaks many times on this day also, sometimes just calling it the day. from my reading/studying its speaking to when we are caught up. if you go thru the bible OT and NT and study this it seems to me thats what its saying. as in the days of Noah... as in the days of Lot... the righteous where few compared to the wicked.
as far as what Giller said i have tried to make it understood to many who think its talking about the rapture but lets look at this closer:
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
for that day(hemera) shall not come except there be a rapture first??? how can the day Jesus comes and takes us happen before he comes and takes us... do a word study on hemera... look in the OT for day of the Lord, the day, and look up those hebrew words and study this out... any form of the word in OT and NT and its obvious.
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Post by Giller on Mar 6, 2019 2:29:52 GMT -5
2Th 1:8-10 (8) In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: (9) Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; (10) When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
This one is clearly talking about the second coming, yet the word day in verse 10, in Greek is Hemera.
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Cletus
Senior Member
Posts: 2,517
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Post by Cletus on Mar 6, 2019 3:11:48 GMT -5
2Th 1:8-10 (8) In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: (9) Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; (10) When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. This one is clearly talking about the second coming, yet the word day in verse 10, in Greek is Hemera. you are going to find many ways this word is used... if you decide to take this word study on you will be at it for a while. I will list some to save you some time, lots of it. but first, here is another example of the word being used:
2Th 3:8 Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:
here it is talking about a regular old day. there are 389 uses of this word... or so. plus there is the OT... another word/words altogether. this is why it can take awhile.
but here are a few other uses to give yo an idea that is more reasonable:
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
1Co 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
2Co 1:14 As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are ours in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Php 1:5 For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now; Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
Php 1:10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;
Php 2:16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.
when you study also the OT words for the day, day of the Lord, etc. you begin to see it more clearly. here is one of my favorites from the OT about The day of The LORD:
Amo_5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.
the hebrews were looking not for the sacrificial lamb for for the Lion to come and roar.
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