PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Apr 16, 2019 7:30:50 GMT -5
My understanding is the same as joseph on perfection. We can be perfectly developed the way a musician is taught perfect music or a ballet dancer has a perfect turnout. It doesn’t mean we’re above temptation. Father God is the only one we know of who has never felt temptation. Jesus was tempted on every point, and we know Satan was once considered perfect before he got into pride. The Bible doesn’t say perfect people can’t make mistakes. I think that’s where much of the confusion comes from. Not every sin is deliberate disobedience. Sometimes it’s a mistake based on wrong information or even simple fatigue.
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Post by solid on Apr 16, 2019 9:20:57 GMT -5
Even Job who was called perfect repented for things he said. Anyone can make a mistake.
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Post by joseph on Apr 16, 2019 15:53:04 GMT -5
Mostly tested, verify as needed, in line with all Scripture and Yahuweh's(God's) Plan.
www . worthychristianlibrary . com/a-plain-account-of-christian-perfection/
" A Plain Account of Christian Perfection
Table of Contents
Chapter 1 – The Doctrine of Christian Perfection
Chapter 2 – In What Sense Are Christians Perfect?
Chapter 3 – Further Explanations
Chapter 4 – Perfection in this Life
Chapter 5 – The Doctrine of Sanctification
Chapter 6 – Thoughts on Christian Perfection
Chapter 7 – The Work of God
Chapter 8 – The Great Challenge of the Soul
Chapter 9 – Further Thoughts on Christian Perfection
Chapter 10 – Further Thoughts on Christian Perfection (Continued)
Chapter 11 – Reflections
Chapter 12 – The Sum of What I Have Observed
Chapter 13 – Brief Thoughts on Christian Perfection "
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2019 6:36:13 GMT -5
Part of the problem I’ve had with understanding this comes from isolating that word "perfect" from the whole context where it is used....I have gotten too hung up and focused on only that one single word (which is too cut-and-dried in the English to begin with), making me miss the over-all sense of what Jesus was trying to say. In Matthew 5, perfectness is about a righteousness that exceeds the righteousness of the Pharisees. Jesus gave a few examples of this righteousness …. ”you have heard it said….but I say unto you”…..with the last example being this one:
Mat 5:43-48
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
So now I am understanding it (thanks be to God!) that perfectness is a state of being righteous, holy, spiritual....the inward matching up with the outward…..completeness in the sense of integrity, not just outward appearances and behaviour…..being like children reflecting the image and nature of our heavenly Father and Christ Jesus….living out and reflecting the spirit of the law, which exceeds the righteousness of the letter. (Each one might understand it better “ in their own words”, but I’m finding it’s more useful to think in terms of perfect-ness, rather than the perfect-ion which is not ours yet.) Jesus was teaching those who were under the Law, and opening to them the new way of His spiritual kingdom.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Apr 17, 2019 6:55:54 GMT -5
We are all basically saying the same thing!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2019 9:36:32 GMT -5
We are all basically saying the same thing! Good! I don't know if anything got miscontrued or not, but I haven't been challenging or arguing with anyone....only discussing. What I shared in my last post was very helpful for me, it's hot off the press, and thought others who read this thread might enjoy it too.
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Post by joseph on Apr 22, 2019 12:27:37 GMT -5
Mostly tested, verify as needed, in line with all Scripture and Yahuweh's(God's) Plan. www . worthychristianlibrary . com/a-plain-account-of-christian-perfection/ " A Plain Account of Christian Perfection Table of Contents Chapter 1 – The Doctrine of Christian Perfection Chapter 2 – In What Sense Are Christians Perfect? Chapter 3 – Further Explanations Chapter 4 – Perfection in this Life Chapter 5 – The Doctrine of Sanctification Chapter 6 – Thoughts on Christian Perfection Chapter 7 – The Work of God Chapter 8 – The Great Challenge of the Soul Chapter 9 – Further Thoughts on Christian Perfection Chapter 10 – Further Thoughts on Christian Perfection (Continued) Chapter 11 – Reflections Chapter 12 – The Sum of What I Have Observed Chapter 13 – Brief Thoughts on Christian Perfection " Yes, Be ye perfect (perfectly so), perfect because Elohim's Word says so, and concludes to be perfect, not lacking in any good thing.... excerpts from link www.worthychristianlibrary.com/john-wesley/a-plain-account-of-christian-perfection/chapter-2-in-what-sense-are-christians-perfect/"Chapter 2 – In What Sense Are Christians Perfect? 12. 1 think it was in the latter end of the year 1740 that I had a conversation with Dr. Gibson, then Bishop of London, at Whitehall. He asked me what I meant by Perfection. I told him without any disguise or reserve. When I ceased speaking he said, ‘Mr. Wesley, if this be all you mean, publish it to all the world. If then can confute what you say, he may have leave.’ I answered, ‘My Lord, I will’; and accordingly wrote and published the sermon on Perfection. In this I endeavoured to show-(1) In what sense Christians are not, (2) in what sense they are, perfect. ‘1. In what sense they are not. They are not perfect in knowledge. They are not free from ignorance; no, nor from mistake. We are no more to expect any to be infallible, than to be omniscient. They are not free from infirmities, such as weakness or slowness of understanding, irregular quickness or heaviness of imagination. Such, in another kind, are, impropriety of language, ungracefulness of pronunciation; one might add a thousand nameless defects, conversation or behaviour. From such infirmities as these none are perfectly freed till their spirits return to God. Neither can we expect, till then, to be wholly freed from temptation: “for the servant is not above his Master.” But neither in this sense is absolute perfection on earth. There is no perfection of degrees; none which does not admit of a continual increase. ‘2. In what sense, then, are they perfect? Observe, we are not now speaking of babes in Christ, but adult Christians. But even babes in Christ are so far perfect as not commit sin. This St. John affirms expressly; and it cannot be disproved by the examples of the Old Testament. For what if the holiest of the ancient Jews did sometimes commit sin? We cannot infer from hence, that “all Christians do and must commit sin as they live.” ‘But does not the Scripture say, “A just man sinneth seven times a day?” It does not. Indeed it says, “A just man falleth seven times.” But this is quite another thing. For, first, the words, a day, are not in the text. Secondly, here is no mention of falling into sin at all. What is here mentioned is falling into temporal affiction. ‘But elsewhere Solomon says, “There is no man that sinneth not.” Doubtless thus it was in the days of Solomon; yea, and from Solomon to Christ there, was then no man that sinned not. But whatever was the case of those under the law,, we may safely affirm, with St. John, that since the Gospel was given, “he that is born of God sinneth not.” ‘The privileges of Christians are in no wise to be measured by what the Old Testament records concerning those who were under the Jewish dispensation; seeing the fulness of time is now come; the Holy Ghost is now given; the great salvation of God is now brought to men by the revelation of Jesus Christ. The kingdom of heaven is now set up on earth, concerning which the Spirit of God declared of old time (so far is David from being the pattern or standard of Christian perfection), “He that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as the angel of the Lord before them” (Zech. xii. 8). ‘But the apostles themselves committed sin: Peter by dissembling, Paul by his sharp contention with Barnabas. Suppose they did, will you argue thus: “If two of the apostles once committed sin, then all other Christians, in all ages, do and must commit sin as long as they live?” Nay, God forbid we should thus speak. No necessity of sin was laid upon them: the grace of God was surely sufficient for them; and it is sufficient for us at this day. ‘But St. James says, “In many things we offend all.” True: but who are the persons here spoken of? Why, those many masters or teachers whom God had not sent. Not the apostle himself, nor any real Christian. That in the word we (used by a figure of speech, common in all other as well as the inspired writings) the apostle could not possibly include himself, or any other true believer, appears, first, from the ninth verse: “Therewith bless we God, and therewith curse we men.” Surely not we apostles! not we believers! Secondly, from the words preceding the text: “My brethren, be not many masters,” or teachers, “knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation: for in many things we offend all.” We! Who? Not the apostles, nor true believers, but they who were to “receive the greater condemnation,” because of those many offences. Nay, thirdly, the verse itself proves, that”we offend all” cannot be spoken either of all men, or all Christians. For in it immediately follows the mention of a man who ofends not, as the we first mentioned did; from whom, therefore, he is professedly contra-distinguished, and pronounced a perfect man. ‘But St. John himself says, “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves”; and, “if we say we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.” ‘I answer-(1) The tenth verse fixes the sense of the eighth. “If we say we have no sin,” in the former , being explained by, “If we say we have not sinned,” in the latter verse. (2) The point of consideration is not whether we have or have not sinned heretofore; and neither of these verses asserts that we do sin, or commit sin now. (3) The ninth verse explains both the eighth and tenth: “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” As if we had said, I have before affirmed, “The blood of Christ cleanseth from all sin.” And no man can say, “I need it not; I have no sin to be cleansed from.” “If we say we have no sin,” that we have not sinned, “we deceive ourselves,” and make God a liar. But “if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just,” not only “to forgive us our sins, but also to cleanse us from all unrighteousness,” that we may “go and sin no more.” In conformity, therefore, both to the doctrine of St. John, and the whole tenor of the New Testament, we fix this conclusion: A Christian is so far perfect as not to commit sin.
‘This is the glorious privilege of every Christian, yea, though he be but a babe in Christ. But it is only of grown Christians it can be affirmed they are in such a sense perfect...... " ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- so go and sin no more. be perfect. as written and unchanged in all Scripture.
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Post by John on Apr 22, 2019 15:46:17 GMT -5
Part of the problem I’ve had with understanding this comes from isolating that word "perfect" from the whole context where it is used....I have gotten too hung up and focused on only that one single word (which is too cut-and-dried in the English to begin with), making me miss the over-all sense of what Jesus was trying to say. In Matthew 5, perfectness is about a righteousness that exceeds the righteousness of the Pharisees. Jesus gave a few examples of this righteousness …. ”you have heard it said….but I say unto you”…..with the last example being this one: Mat 5:43-48
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
So now I am understanding it (thanks be to God!) that perfectness is a state of being righteous, holy, spiritual....the inward matching up with the outward…..completeness in the sense of integrity, not just outward appearances and behaviour…..being like children reflecting the image and nature of our heavenly Father and Christ Jesus….living out and reflecting the spirit of the law, which exceeds the righteousness of the letter. (Each one might understand it better “ in their own words”, but I’m finding it’s more useful to think in terms of perfect-ness, rather than the perfect-ion which is not ours yet.) Jesus was teaching those who were under the Law, and opening to them the new way of His spiritual kingdom. This may be the first time I have heard anyone say the spirit of the law exceeds the righteousness of the letter. Most use spirit of the law arguments to justify breaking God's laws. You see the truth. I wish more had that understanding.
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Post by John on Apr 22, 2019 15:54:18 GMT -5
We are all basically saying the same thing! Good! I don't know if anything got miscontrued or not, but I haven't been challenging or arguing with anyone....only discussing. What I shared in my last post was very helpful for me, it's hot off the press, and thought others who read this thread might enjoy it too. Thanks for sharing that with us!
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Post by John on Apr 22, 2019 16:12:01 GMT -5
Joseph, John Wesley makes a lot of sense, and is right in saying that we don't have to live in sin. I am surprised that WCF has that in their library, but I am glad they do. If you like John Wesley, you should check out the Wesleyan Reading Room. They have a massive collection of material.
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Post by solid on Apr 22, 2019 16:57:57 GMT -5
Joseph, John Wesley makes a lot of sense, and is right in saying that we don't have to live in sin. I am surprised that WCF has that in their library, but I am glad they do. If you like John Wesley, you should check out the Wesleyan Reading Room. They have a massive collection of material.
Do you have a link?
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Post by John on Apr 22, 2019 17:08:39 GMT -5
Joseph, John Wesley makes a lot of sense, and is right in saying that we don't have to live in sin. I am surprised that WCF has that in their library, but I am glad they do. If you like John Wesley, you should check out the Wesleyan Reading Room. They have a massive collection of material.
Do you have a link? It may be listed as something else. I couldn't find it with a search, but I used to spend a lot of time there. I will do some digging and let you know if I have any success finding it.
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Post by John on Apr 22, 2019 17:27:20 GMT -5
Joseph, John Wesley makes a lot of sense, and is right in saying that we don't have to live in sin. I am surprised that WCF has that in their library, but I am glad they do. If you like John Wesley, you should check out the Wesleyan Reading Room. They have a massive collection of material.
Do you have a link? It looks like they took the site down. I can't find it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2019 6:48:10 GMT -5
Mostly tested, verify as needed, in line with all Scripture and Yahuweh's(God's) Plan. www . worthychristianlibrary . com/a-plain-account-of-christian-perfection/ " A Plain Account of Christian Perfection Table of Contents Chapter 1 – The Doctrine of Christian Perfection Chapter 2 – In What Sense Are Christians Perfect? Chapter 3 – Further Explanations Chapter 4 – Perfection in this Life Chapter 5 – The Doctrine of Sanctification Chapter 6 – Thoughts on Christian Perfection Chapter 7 – The Work of God Chapter 8 – The Great Challenge of the Soul Chapter 9 – Further Thoughts on Christian Perfection Chapter 10 – Further Thoughts on Christian Perfection (Continued) Chapter 11 – Reflections Chapter 12 – The Sum of What I Have Observed Chapter 13 – Brief Thoughts on Christian Perfection " Yes, Be ye perfect (perfectly so), perfect because Elohim's Word says so, and concludes to be perfect, not lacking in any good thing.... excerpts from link www.worthychristianlibrary.com/john-wesley/a-plain-account-of-christian-perfection/chapter-2-in-what-sense-are-christians-perfect/"Chapter 2 – In What Sense Are Christians Perfect? 12. 1 think it was in the latter end of the year 1740 that I had a conversation with Dr. Gibson, then Bishop of London, at Whitehall. He asked me what I meant by Perfection. I told him without any disguise or reserve. When I ceased speaking he said, ‘Mr. Wesley, if this be all you mean, publish it to all the world. If then can confute what you say, he may have leave.’ I answered, ‘My Lord, I will’; and accordingly wrote and published the sermon on Perfection. In this I endeavoured to show-(1) In what sense Christians are not, (2) in what sense they are, perfect. ‘1. In what sense they are not. They are not perfect in knowledge. They are not free from ignorance; no, nor from mistake. We are no more to expect any to be infallible, than to be omniscient. They are not free from infirmities, such as weakness or slowness of understanding, irregular quickness or heaviness of imagination. Such, in another kind, are, impropriety of language, ungracefulness of pronunciation; one might add a thousand nameless defects, conversation or behaviour. From such infirmities as these none are perfectly freed till their spirits return to God. Neither can we expect, till then, to be wholly freed from temptation: “for the servant is not above his Master.” But neither in this sense is absolute perfection on earth. There is no perfection of degrees; none which does not admit of a continual increase. ‘2. In what sense, then, are they perfect? Observe, we are not now speaking of babes in Christ, but adult Christians. But even babes in Christ are so far perfect as not commit sin. This St. John affirms expressly; and it cannot be disproved by the examples of the Old Testament. For what if the holiest of the ancient Jews did sometimes commit sin? We cannot infer from hence, that “all Christians do and must commit sin as they live.” ‘But does not the Scripture say, “A just man sinneth seven times a day?” It does not. Indeed it says, “A just man falleth seven times.” But this is quite another thing. For, first, the words, a day, are not in the text. Secondly, here is no mention of falling into sin at all. What is here mentioned is falling into temporal affiction. ‘But elsewhere Solomon says, “There is no man that sinneth not.” Doubtless thus it was in the days of Solomon; yea, and from Solomon to Christ there, was then no man that sinned not. But whatever was the case of those under the law,, we may safely affirm, with St. John, that since the Gospel was given, “he that is born of God sinneth not.” ‘The privileges of Christians are in no wise to be measured by what the Old Testament records concerning those who were under the Jewish dispensation; seeing the fulness of time is now come; the Holy Ghost is now given; the great salvation of God is now brought to men by the revelation of Jesus Christ. The kingdom of heaven is now set up on earth, concerning which the Spirit of God declared of old time (so far is David from being the pattern or standard of Christian perfection), “He that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as the angel of the Lord before them” (Zech. xii. 8). ‘But the apostles themselves committed sin: Peter by dissembling, Paul by his sharp contention with Barnabas. Suppose they did, will you argue thus: “If two of the apostles once committed sin, then all other Christians, in all ages, do and must commit sin as long as they live?” Nay, God forbid we should thus speak. No necessity of sin was laid upon them: the grace of God was surely sufficient for them; and it is sufficient for us at this day. ‘But St. James says, “In many things we offend all.” True: but who are the persons here spoken of? Why, those many masters or teachers whom God had not sent. Not the apostle himself, nor any real Christian. That in the word we (used by a figure of speech, common in all other as well as the inspired writings) the apostle could not possibly include himself, or any other true believer, appears, first, from the ninth verse: “Therewith bless we God, and therewith curse we men.” Surely not we apostles! not we believers! Secondly, from the words preceding the text: “My brethren, be not many masters,” or teachers, “knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation: for in many things we offend all.” We! Who? Not the apostles, nor true believers, but they who were to “receive the greater condemnation,” because of those many offences. Nay, thirdly, the verse itself proves, that”we offend all” cannot be spoken either of all men, or all Christians. For in it immediately follows the mention of a man who ofends not, as the we first mentioned did; from whom, therefore, he is professedly contra-distinguished, and pronounced a perfect man. ‘But St. John himself says, “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves”; and, “if we say we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.” ‘I answer-(1) The tenth verse fixes the sense of the eighth. “If we say we have no sin,” in the former , being explained by, “If we say we have not sinned,” in the latter verse. (2) The point of consideration is not whether we have or have not sinned heretofore; and neither of these verses asserts that we do sin, or commit sin now. (3) The ninth verse explains both the eighth and tenth: “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” As if we had said, I have before affirmed, “The blood of Christ cleanseth from all sin.” And no man can say, “I need it not; I have no sin to be cleansed from.” “If we say we have no sin,” that we have not sinned, “we deceive ourselves,” and make God a liar. But “if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just,” not only “to forgive us our sins, but also to cleanse us from all unrighteousness,” that we may “go and sin no more.” In conformity, therefore, both to the doctrine of St. John, and the whole tenor of the New Testament, we fix this conclusion: A Christian is so far perfect as not to commit sin.
‘This is the glorious privilege of every Christian, yea, though he be but a babe in Christ. But it is only of grown Christians it can be affirmed they are in such a sense perfect...... " ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- so go and sin no more. be perfect. as written and unchanged in all Scripture. And even more than go and sin no more outwardly, I believe is the idea that we are to be of the same nature/spirit as our heavenly Father....inwardly. This seems to be the idea that Jesus was conveying to the Jews who up to now had only known the letter of the Law, which had to do with outward behaviour. Being perfect as the Father is perfect means that we are to be of His spirit and nature. The patriarchs and prophets understood this (and David was a man after God's own heart/spirit).......but most of the people of Israel did not understand.....the spiritual leaders at the time of Jesus did not. It comes across to me that Jesus was opening to the people the ways of His kingdom, which is a better and higher way than the letter of the Law.
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Post by John on Apr 24, 2019 17:44:39 GMT -5
Even though many of the religious leaders seemed to focus exclusively on the outward things they did, there must have been something on the inside of people where they knew that God cared about their thoughts. Look at this verse from Job 31:1
I made a covenant with mine eyes; why then should I think upon a maid?
Job isn't speaking about the actual act of fornication or adultery, but simply looking upon a woman to lust. Sister Candance had mentioned in another thread how that some things are just things we know on the inside are wrong without someone having to tell us thou shalt not do it.
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