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Post by Giller on May 17, 2019 0:28:42 GMT -5
Another thing I think about, is in the form of 2 extremes, I have an example of the world, and an example in religion.
In the 60's or 70's, there was the hippie movement, people wanted to do drugs, live a party life and so on, they were very unruly, and in many ways lawless.
And then there is the ritualistic church of Roman Catholicism, were there is no life of the Holy Spirit, every thing is dry dead religion, you could say it is a dead word, and you can almost say in certain ways, every thing by rote.
Well concerning the gospel, it is a living word, the Holy Spirit makes the word alive to our hearts, and even though that is so, by no means is the gospel lawless.
But also it is not a dry , dead, meaningless, ritualistic way of life.
Now in saying this, that does not mean there is no guidance in the bible of how to do things, such as the Corinthians were told to do things decently and in order.
And there are things in and of themselves, especially if done for that purpose, that are ritualistic, but also there can be something that is according to the word, that can either be done, in a way to were you let God make it alive to you, or you can obey it in the form of a ritualistic mind.
Anything can be ritualistic, if you receive it that way.
And this is just a question I am asking, and not pointing to any one, how many in church circles are as spiritual hippies, lawless, and want to do what they want to do, when they want to do it?
And how many are as ritualistic Catholics (spiritually speaking that is)?
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Post by John on May 17, 2019 6:19:07 GMT -5
We often times hear phrases such as formal dead religion, which does exist, and there is total truth to that. And then we hear things said like, we need to have informal gatherings, everything has to be informal and so on. But is formalism in every way wrong? And is informalism always right? Here are definitions of these words: (Oxford dictionaries) ( for·mal
[ˈfôrməl] ADJECTIVE done in accordance with rules of convention or etiquette; suitable for or constituting an official or important situation or occasion.) (Oxford dictionaries) ( in·for·mal [inˈfôrməl] ADJECTIVE having a relaxed, friendly, or unofficial style, manner, or nature. ) "an informal atmosphere" ) Returning to these definitions, one can see how either extreme could present a problem. You can't just let everything take place with no order or you have chaos, neither can you be so rigid that the Spirit can't move in a way that was not prescribed in advance. I don't like either extreme, and you don't have to be all one way or the other. You can have an order that you follow, and you can still be open to a genuine move of God. I lean more towards the side of formal over informal, but wouldn't try to quench the Spirit.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on May 17, 2019 8:11:53 GMT -5
There’s no man-made policy one way or another that can replace Holy Spirit guidance. I don’t think He cares about our schedules and methods nearly as much as we do. He can bless a person who is meticulous but sincere who would rather have more structure. He can also bless a sincere person who doesn’t like structure. There’s more than one way to skin a cat. I’m reminded of Paul telling us not to judge each other for meats or festivals. We shouldn’t try to beat everyone’s personality into conformity. Of course if someone acts a certain way to try to prove a point, and it isn’t their sincere conviction, they should check their motives.
You can keep a reverential attitude of doing things decently and in order even as you have a loose schedule. People come and go from this forum throughout the day, but when they’re here they make an effort to organize their thoughts. Being spontaneous isn’t the same as being uncivilized.
As far as disfellowshipping over this, Sunday church attendance is in fact seen as a requirement in some circles (even among evangelicals) and especially pastors. The feeling persists that dropping out of church is the first step to backsliding. I’ve had some Christians tell me I’m in rebellion to God’s word (and therefore in sin) because I have no local church. To them it’s a big enough deal that they have to cut you off and treat you like a publican.
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Post by John on May 17, 2019 8:45:29 GMT -5
There’s no man-made policy one way or another that can replace Holy Spirit guidance. I don’t think He cares about our schedules and methods nearly as much as we do. He can bless a person who is meticulous but sincere who would rather have more structure. He can also bless a sincere person who doesn’t like structure. There’s more than one way to skin a cat. I’m reminded of Paul telling us not to judge each other for meats or festivals. We shouldn’t try to beat everyone’s personality into conformity. Of course if someone acts a certain way to try to prove a point, and it isn’t their sincere conviction, they should check their motives. You can keep a reverential attitude of doing things decently and in order even as you have a loose schedule. People come and go from this forum throughout the day, but when they’re here they make an effort to organize their thoughts. Being spontaneous isn’t the same as being uncivilized. As far as disfellowshipping over this, Sunday church attendance is in fact seen as a requirement in some circles (even among evangelicals) and especially pastors. The feeling persists that dropping out of church is the first step to backsliding. I’ve had some Christians tell me I’m in rebellion to God’s word (and therefore in sin) because I have no local church. To them it’s a big enough deal that they have to cut you off and treat you like a publican. Many of us assemble here far more than most church goers meet in a physical church. Where is the rebellion?
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on May 17, 2019 9:00:30 GMT -5
These seminaries use an air of authority along with a heavy dose of biased hermeneutics to convince people of the whole system. You must pay tithes to a local church or you’re robbing God. You must worship with music in a corporate setting using church-approved songs, unless you’re just a self-indulgent hippy. You must have an outgoing personality that can aggressively market your church evangelize your friends, or you reject the Great Commission.
Seriously, new pastors coming up these days really believe that if you don’t want to pay for a fancy sound system then you simply don’t believe the Great Commission. The whole seeker-friendly package is presumed to be evangelism. If you refuse to help your local church pay for it, well you might as well just admit that you’re selfish.
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Post by Giller on May 17, 2019 10:14:13 GMT -5
Believe it or not, but there are some people who won't gather with you, if things are not done exactly to a tee, the way they want things done.
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Post by Giller on May 17, 2019 10:15:07 GMT -5
And some divide over the silliest things.
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Post by John on May 17, 2019 10:19:59 GMT -5
I have no idea what they cost, but you can't put a price on a good fog machine for the church. You must have one to get young people to show up.
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Post by PG4Him on May 17, 2019 10:21:36 GMT -5
There’s also this whole movement of people who think worship music is confined to musical instruments in the Bible. They talk about going back to using harps and flutes. They actually think it’s a sin to use modern instruments like a guitar. Some of them will even say instruments invented in pagan cultures are pagan instruments, and they will refuse to fellowship with anyone who plays that type of instrument.
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Post by Giller on May 17, 2019 10:23:01 GMT -5
I have no idea what they cost, but you can't put a price on a good fog machine for the church. You must have one to get young people to show up.
Ya that is sad.
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Post by PG4Him on May 17, 2019 10:23:08 GMT -5
I have no idea what they cost, but you can't put a price on a good fog machine for the church. You must have one to get young people to show up.
I actually read an article from Rick Warren telling pastors their marketing budget should be the last thing they cut. They should cut back on missions or outreach or whatever it takes to save that marketing budget because marketing is how you get more revenue. I am not joking. He said this with a straight face. I will try to find the article.
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Post by Giller on May 17, 2019 10:25:08 GMT -5
There’s also this whole movement of people who think worship music is confined to musical instruments in the Bible. They talk about going back to using harps and flutes. They actually think it’s a sin to use modern instruments like a guitar. Some of them will even say instruments invented in pagan cultures are pagan instruments, and they will refuse to fellowship with anyone who plays that type of instrument. And then I have seen the flip side, to were an assembly thought it was sinful to play instruments, so they only sang with their voices, because the new testament does not show any evidence of instruments. It is an actual doctrine, I have checked it out. And I went to a meeting of an assembly like this, just to check it out, which I did not fully know what they were, and a friend had me come. My friend does not go there no more, and he was just checking it out also.
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Post by Giller on May 17, 2019 10:32:59 GMT -5
Me I love instruments, but say no one in your gathering knew how to play an instrument, then why not just sing with the voices, and make a joyful noise.
Clap your hands if you want to, lift your hands if you want to, praise the Lord.
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Post by John on May 17, 2019 10:40:14 GMT -5
There’s also this whole movement of people who think worship music is confined to musical instruments in the Bible. They talk about going back to using harps and flutes. They actually think it’s a sin to use modern instruments like a guitar. Some of them will even say instruments invented in pagan cultures are pagan instruments, and they will refuse to fellowship with anyone who plays that type of instrument. And then I have seen the flip side, to were an assembly thought it was sinful to play instruments, so they only sang with their voices, because the new testament does not show any evidence of instruments. It is an actual doctrine, I have checked it out. And I went to a meeting of an assembly like this, just to check it out, which I did not fully know what they were, and a friend had me come. My friend does not go there no more, and he was just checking it out also. The Church of Christ thinks instruments in church is wrong and Primitive Baptists don't use them because of tradition. I have been to both churches.
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Post by PG4Him on May 17, 2019 11:00:16 GMT -5
Behold the naked pragmatism that is Rick Warren: churchplants.com/articles/14774-dont-ask-much-will-cost-reaching-community-rick-warren.htmlOften when finances get tight in a church the first thing cut is the evangelism and advertising budget. That is the last thing you should cut. It is the source of new health and life for your church.
Warren even says he used credit cards to pay for marketing when he started Saddleback. Yes my friends, if your church is financially small, you should keep marketing even if you must go in debt. Young pastors are soaking in this advice as gospel truth.
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