PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on May 15, 2019 8:18:33 GMT -5
Take the rod, and gather thou the assembly together, thou, and Aaron thy brother, and speak ye unto the rock before their eyes; and it shall give forth his water, and thou shalt bring forth to them water out of the rock: so thou shalt give the congregation and their beasts drink. And Moses took the rod from before the Lord, as he commanded him. And Moses and Aaron gathered the congregation together before the rock, and he said unto them, Hear now, ye rebels; must we fetch you water out of this rock? And Moses lifted up his hand, and with his rod he smote the rock twice: and the water came out abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their beasts also. And the Lord spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them. — Numbers 20:8-12
Contrary to popular doctrine, Moses didn’t strike this rock because he lost his temper. God says Moses did this in unbelief. And notice that Aaron is included in the consequence. Has anyone ever told you Aaron was not allowed in the promised land either?
At Horeb he’d been told to strike the rock for the water to come forth. It was a totally different situation. That was in Exodus 17 before they made it to Sinai. No covenant yet, no Levi priesthood, no way for the common people to walk with God. There, Moses gathered the tribal elders around him, and the Lord promised to stand before him while he smote the rock.
(If you’re keeping up with this from a Christian perspective, Jesus the rock was struck dead by those in the seat of Moses so that salvation and Holy Spirit power might come forth)
Now we’re in Numbers after the covenant was given. Aaron is head priest. The Lord wants to draw the people to Himself and be sanctified in their eyes. This time the Lord isn’t standing nearby; He’s inside. Moses certainly believed there was water in this rock. He assembled the people, gave a little speech, and pinpointed the assigned rock. He believed in the water. But there was something he didn’t believe — either that the water would come forth upon request or that the people would receive God’s presence through it. He disbelieved something in relation to the Lord being sanctified among the people.
The Law could bring them to God’s hand but not God’s presence. Moses and Aaron failed in their priesthood duty of connecting the people to God. Time and again, they would strike the Rock of Offense as they tried to enter heaven by brute force.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on May 15, 2019 8:38:05 GMT -5
Pay close attention to what God commanded vs what actually happened.
The original plan: Moses speaks to rock, water comes out in measure, Aaron harvests water to distribute to the people
What happened: Moses shatters rock, all the water comes out at once, the people help themselves
This was the sanctification that Moses overlooked. Reverence for the water. Entreating the Lord for a measure of water that would handled by consecrated hands. That’s why Moses said he didn’t want to fetch it! He wasn’t saying he didn’t want to get the water — he was saying he didn’t want to stand there all day harvesting and distributing the water. He broke the rock and let them fend for themselves.
There’s so much more happening here than Moses simply being disobedient. Much prophetic depth.
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Post by John on May 15, 2019 9:08:00 GMT -5
I totally agree with you about why Moses couldn't enter Canaan, and the significance of what was happening. I never considered how the water came out, as opposed to how it may have had Moses obeyed God and spoken to the rock.
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Post by John on May 15, 2019 9:46:31 GMT -5
There is no way I can know the mind of Moses, but I had always speculated that maybe he was going with what worked before, rather than doing something untested. That is just a guess.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on May 15, 2019 9:59:05 GMT -5
Let’s have another look at verse 8.
Take the rod, and gather thou the assembly together, thou, and Aaron thy brother, and speak ye unto the rock before their eyes; and it shall give forth his water, and thou shalt bring forth to them water out of the rock: so thou shalt give the congregation and their beasts drink. — Numbers 20:8
Moses says in his speech that he doesn’t want to fetch their water. This is the image of an errand boy fetching water from a well to bring to his master. Moses wasn’t going to do that for people he saw as undeserving.
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Post by John on May 15, 2019 10:04:32 GMT -5
Let’s have another look at verse 8. Take the rod, and gather thou the assembly together, thou, and Aaron thy brother, and speak ye unto the rock before their eyes; and it shall give forth his water, and thou shalt bring forth to them water out of the rock: so thou shalt give the congregation and their beasts drink. — Numbers 20:8
Moses says in his speech that he doesn’t want to fetch their water. This is the image of an errand boy fetching water from a well to bring to his master. Moses wasn’t going to do that for people he saw as undeserving. That makes perfect sense, given the anger in Moses' words. "Hear now, ye rebels; must we fetch you water out of this rock?" The only thing is, how could Moses have known that by striking the rock, the water would come gushing out, and if he spoke to the rock it would not? He could guess at it, but I don't know how he could be sure.
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Post by 2fw8212a on May 15, 2019 10:22:26 GMT -5
The only thing is, how could Moses have known that by striking the rock, the water would come gushing out, and if he spoke to the rock it would not?
He could guess at it, but I don't know how he could be sure. Actually, the Lord commanded him to speak only.
"Take the rod; you and your brother Aaron gather the congregation together.
Speak to the rock before their eyes, and it will yield its water..." - Numbers 20:8
And obviously, as the Lord said that just speaking would do, that is all Moses should have done.
He did not follow the command.
"because you trespassed against Me among the children of Israel
at the waters of Meribah Kadesh, in the Wilderness of Zin, because you did not hallow Me
in the midst of the children of Israel.
Yet you shall see the land before you,
though you shall not go there, into the land which I am giving to the children of Israel." - Deuteronomy 32:51-52
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on May 15, 2019 10:41:03 GMT -5
The only thing is, how could Moses have known that by striking the rock, the water would come gushing out, and if he spoke to the rock it would not? He could guess at it, but I don't know how he could be sure. If the water would have gushed out when he spoke, there would have been no catching it in buckets. You can’t catch a tidal wave in a bucket. The plan was obviously set up to have a slow trickle for bucket collection. Moses wanted to avoid that outcome. Moses’ unbelief wasn't about whether the plan would work. His reluctance to fetch water shows that he understood the plan. His disbelief was in how the gesture would be received. He didn’t believe those obstinate people would behold it in reverence. He didn’t think they would see the point. He figured they would mock him for fetching their water. This is the great tension of the Torah. The people saw God’s hand but not His presence. Moses spent his ministry in frustration that he couldn’t bring the people into an intimate relationship with God. The rock at Kadesh was a moment when God tried to touch them, and Moses assumed it wouldn’t work.
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Post by 2fw8212a on May 15, 2019 10:47:25 GMT -5
Moses spent his ministry in frustration that he couldn’t bring the people into an intimate relationship with God. But the hour is coming, and now is,
when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth;
for the Father is seeking such to worship Him." - John 4:23
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Post by John on May 15, 2019 11:01:31 GMT -5
The only thing is, how could Moses have known that by striking the rock, the water would come gushing out, and if he spoke to the rock it would not? He could guess at it, but I don't know how he could be sure. If the water would have gushed out when he spoke, there would have been no catching it in buckets. You can’t catch a tidal wave in a bucket. The plan was obviously set up to have a slow trickle for bucket collection. Moses wanted to avoid that outcome. Moses’ unbelief wasn't about whether the plan would work. His reluctance to fetch water shows that he understood the plan. His disbelief was in how the gesture would be received. He didn’t believe those obstinate people would behold it in reverence. He didn’t think they would see the point. He figured they would mock him for fetching their water. This is the great tension of the Torah. The people saw God’s hand but not His presence. Moses spent his ministry in frustration that he couldn’t bring the people into an intimate relationship with God. The rock at Kadesh was a moment when God tried to touch them, and Moses assumed it wouldn’t work. All of what you said fits, but what I am getting at is why would Moses assume that he would get out of having to fetch the water by smiting the rock? What if the water still came out at a trickle when he hit the rock?
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on May 15, 2019 11:09:17 GMT -5
If the water would have gushed out when he spoke, there would have been no catching it in buckets. You can’t catch a tidal wave in a bucket. The plan was obviously set up to have a slow trickle for bucket collection. Moses wanted to avoid that outcome. Moses’ unbelief wasn't about whether the plan would work. His reluctance to fetch water shows that he understood the plan. His disbelief was in how the gesture would be received. He didn’t believe those obstinate people would behold it in reverence. He didn’t think they would see the point. He figured they would mock him for fetching their water. This is the great tension of the Torah. The people saw God’s hand but not His presence. Moses spent his ministry in frustration that he couldn’t bring the people into an intimate relationship with God. The rock at Kadesh was a moment when God tried to touch them, and Moses assumed it wouldn’t work. All of what you said fits, but what I am getting at is why would Moses assume that he would get out of having to fetch the water by smiting the rock? What if the water still came out at a trickle when he hit the rock?
He struck it twice to make sure the damage was done.
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Post by Giller on May 15, 2019 13:15:31 GMT -5
Let’s have another look at verse 8. Take the rod, and gather thou the assembly together, thou, and Aaron thy brother, and speak ye unto the rock before their eyes; and it shall give forth his water, and thou shalt bring forth to them water out of the rock: so thou shalt give the congregation and their beasts drink. — Numbers 20:8
Moses says in his speech that he doesn’t want to fetch their water. This is the image of an errand boy fetching water from a well to bring to his master. Moses wasn’t going to do that for people he saw as undeserving. That makes perfect sense, given the anger in Moses' words. "Hear now, ye rebels; must we fetch you water out of this rock?" The only thing is, how could Moses have known that by striking the rock, the water would come gushing out, and if he spoke to the rock it would not? He could guess at it, but I don't know how he could be sure.
Guys, could of Moses' anger towards the Israelites, clouded Moses mind, and bring him into a place of unbelief towards what God wanted him to actually do, or how God would actually accomplish things?
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on May 15, 2019 13:30:52 GMT -5
Too much is made of Moses’ alleged anger problem. We only see two mentions of Moses getting angry, and both of them were understandable. God’s anger burned a lot more often than Moses. I don’t know how Moses could have been the meekest man around if he had a temper problem.
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Post by John on May 15, 2019 18:30:54 GMT -5
Too much is made of Moses’ alleged anger problem. We only see two mentions of Moses getting angry, and both of them were understandable. God’s anger burned a lot more often than Moses. I don’t know how Moses could have been the meekest man around if he had a temper problem. Jesus got angry over the money changers in the temple. I think Moses getting angry would have been understandable.
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Post by joseph on May 29, 2019 10:49:33 GMT -5
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