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Post by 2fw8212a on May 25, 2019 13:56:12 GMT -5
And I want nothing to do with divorce. You do well.
Nowadays people consider divorce for the silliest reasons.
Others just want a hole in the Word to be able to do it with God's approval (this can be compared to finding an excuse to sin).
"I, the Lord, search the heart, I test the mind,
Even to give every man according to his ways,
According to the fruit of his doings." - Jeremiah 17:10
If one loves their spouse, they will never consider divorce, they will fight for it until the end.
That is what I believe, what God has joined together men cannot separate.
"...And there is no one who can deliver out of My hand;
I work, and who will reverse it?" - Isaiah 43:13
But because of ignorance (and lack of love) many are doing the will of the devil. Unfortunately.
"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge..." - Hosea 4:6
"For I desire mercy and not sacrifice,
And the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings." - Hosea 6:6
"He who does not love does not know God, for God is love." - 1 John 4:8
Blessings!
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Post by Giller on May 25, 2019 15:02:16 GMT -5
And I want nothing to do with divorce. You do well.
Nowadays people consider divorce for the silliest reasons.
Others just want a hole in the Word to be able to do it with God's approval (this can be compared to finding an excuse to sin).
"I, the Lord, search the heart, I test the mind,
Even to give every man according to his ways,
According to the fruit of his doings." - Jeremiah 17:10
If one loves their spouse, they will never consider divorce, they will fight for it until the end.
That is what I believe, what God has joined together men cannot separate.
"...And there is no one who can deliver out of My hand;
I work, and who will reverse it?" - Isaiah 43:13
But because of ignorance (and lack of love) many are doing the will of the devil. Unfortunately.
"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge..." - Hosea 4:6
"For I desire mercy and not sacrifice,
And the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings." - Hosea 6:6
"He who does not love does not know God, for God is love." - 1 John 4:8
Blessings!I like what you say here Letters, and in truth they should never consider divorce, I am all for that, but in saying that, God does give an exception for the cause of fornication, but I do not believe that people should use this exception as a way, of automatically having a divorce. Jesus mentioned this as an exception, and not as a must do.
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PG4Him
Senior Member
Essay Moderator
Posts: 3,570
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Post by PG4Him on May 25, 2019 18:16:05 GMT -5
Let me explain what I meant in my comment.
I’ve heard this argument from Christians (at WCF and elsewhere): lusting in your heart is a type of adultery, and God says we can divorce for adultery, so divorce is allowed as soon as my husband glances inappropriately at a woman.
That’s not the spirit of what God meant, but the words can be twisted that way. People do this.
I’ve heard people justify divorce because “being emotionally distant” is the same as abandonment. Getting disabled so you can’t work means you’re not a provider. Infertility means a failure to provide children, which is a biblical expectation for marriage.
Christians really say these things. They latch on verses to manipulate.
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Post by Giller on May 25, 2019 18:39:47 GMT -5
Let me explain what I meant in my comment. I’ve heard this argument from Christians (at WCF and elsewhere): lusting in your heart is a type of adultery, and God says we can divorce for adultery, so divorce is allowed as soon as my husband glances inappropriately at a woman. That’s not the spirit of what God meant, but the words can be twisted that way. People do this. I’ve heard people justify divorce because “being emotionally distant” is the same as abandonment. Getting disabled so you can’t work means you’re not a provider. Infertility means a failure to provide children, which is a biblical expectation for marriage. Christians really say these things. They latch on verses to manipulate. Totally agree. Love you in the lord, sister. I want to be careful how I judge to.
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Post by 2fw8212a on May 25, 2019 19:19:30 GMT -5
That’s not the spirit of what God meant, but the words can be twisted that way. People do this. "Therefore by their fruits you will know them." - Matthew 7:20I want to be careful how I judge to. "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment." - John 7:24
Just because you saw me going out from a hotel with a woman other than my wife it does not make me an adulterer.
Complete history:
I was taking her to hospital as she was feeling bad.
"Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault
between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother." - Matthew 18:15
"Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves.
Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves." - Matthew 10:16
"have you not shown partiality among yourselves, and become judges with evil thoughts?" - James 2:4
"And what I say to you, I say to all: Watch!" - Mark 13:37
Blessings in Jesus' name!
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Post by John on May 26, 2019 10:26:26 GMT -5
Let me explain what I meant in my comment. I’ve heard this argument from Christians (at WCF and elsewhere): lusting in your heart is a type of adultery, and God says we can divorce for adultery, so divorce is allowed as soon as my husband glances inappropriately at a woman. That’s not the spirit of what God meant, but the words can be twisted that way. People do this. I’ve heard people justify divorce because “being emotionally distant” is the same as abandonment. Getting disabled so you can’t work means you’re not a provider. Infertility means a failure to provide children, which is a biblical expectation for marriage. Christians really say these things. They latch on verses to manipulate. When it comes to topics like divorce and re-marriage, people can become very creative in making up reasons why it is acceptable. I have heard all the same things you have, and more. I was debating a guy on this topic, and he was claiming anything that supposedly breaks the marriage covenant is grounds. That can be all kinds of things including the ever popular "verbal abuse." What that means is in the eye of the beholder, but it usually is just when someone says things that harm their spouses self esteem. We should care about not saying things that are negative all the time to our spouse, but there is no scripture that calls this grounds for divorce. One person was saying her husband being controlling was sufficient grounds for divorce. She said she knows the Bible doesn't say that, but she knows what God really meant because she feels okay about her actions. I worked with a guy who had been divorced and re-married multiple times, and he knew it was okay because he said God blessed his marriage. One person knows it is okay because he claims his wife "saved him." What does that mean? From himself because he was on a destructive path, so it has to be okay he married her, even though both of them were married more than once, and the divorces were not for Biblical grounds. Nothing surprises me anymore.
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Post by John on May 26, 2019 10:31:18 GMT -5
There is no doubt that this is accurate and true. Praise God. Now on another note, the bible does actually say these things, which I will mention: Mat 5:31-32 (31) It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: (32) But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery. Deu 24:1-2 (1) When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. (2) And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife. It does mention an exception, which is fornication. In in this Matthew scripture, it is specific of what this exception is, but in Deuteronomy, it talks about finding some uncleanness, and it is not totally specific in what this uncleanness is. And I think we can all at least be honest with that. Now I would agree with Butero, that it cannot mean divorcing someone for any frivolous reason in Deuteronomy, which I cannot see God allowing that, so the only 2 solutions that I can see to this, is either it is referring to, what Butero says, which is fornication, or it is referring to anything that God would have considered to be truly unclean. It is either Jesus in Matthew was revealing what this uncleanness was, which is fornication, or either Jesus was bringing this law to a higher standard than it was back then. I am open in seeing both sides, but right now, I see the way I have mentioned it. And I am still studying on it, in the realm of looking at how the word uncleanness is used in the bible. And let us be careful in judging each other, let us seek to have a good chat, and show scripture to show what we believe, and not just say I believe this, and that's it, those types of comments do not usually speak to me. And I think it is good to explain why. The language in the law of Moses would allow anyone to manipulate it where they could put away their wife for anything. The husband could say she burned his dinner and put her away and call that finding some uncleanness in her. I believe Jesus was clarifying how God meant it. It was because of the hardness of man's heart that a man or woman couldn't forgive their spouse, so the law allowed for divorce. It was never God's will, but he allowed it for sexual immorality. I believe the people pushed the envelope and used it for far more than that, and it was because of the hardness of their hearts they were allowed to get away with it, but it was never God's will and he was not pleased with it. I do not believe Jesus made the rules stricter. I believe he was just saying how God meant it.
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Post by 2fw8212a on May 26, 2019 11:01:35 GMT -5
I do not believe Jesus made the rules stricter. I believe he was just saying how God meant it. Exactly.
"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God;
for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be." - Romans 8:7
The carnal mind is not able to properly interpret Scripture either, the carnal mind will always lead people out of God's will.
The reason why we have perverted grace doctrines and things like that.
"I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran.
I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied." - Jeremiah 23:21
"For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God..." - John 3:34
"If anyone speaks, let him speak as the oracles of God..." - 1 Peter 4:11
The Pharisees' interpretation of the law was in violation of the Ten Commandments.
"For God commanded, saying,
‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’
But you say,
‘Whoever says to his father or mother,
“Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God” - then he need not honor his father or mother.’
Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition." - Matthew 15:4-6
This is exactly what the modern Pharisees are doing with God's Word today. Nothing new under the sun, as it is written...
"That which has been is what will be,
That which is done is what will be done,
And there is nothing new under the sun."
- Ecclesiastes 1:9
Blessings in Jesus' name!
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PG4Him
Senior Member
Essay Moderator
Posts: 3,570
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Post by PG4Him on May 26, 2019 12:30:14 GMT -5
My understanding of the “hard heart” thing is that many innocent women would have starved in the street if they couldn’t remarry. A woman didn’t deserve homelessness as a life sentence because her husband didn’t like her cooking. It was for the woman’s benefit to stay alive, not to appease the conscience of the man. Jesus reminded these men they were still sinning.
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Post by John on May 26, 2019 12:42:10 GMT -5
My understanding of the “hard heart” thing is that many innocent women would have starved in the street if they couldn’t remarry. A woman didn’t deserve homelessness as a life sentence because her husband didn’t like her cooking. It was for the woman’s benefit to stay alive, not to appease the conscience of the man. Jesus reminded these men they were still sinning. That is an interesting way of interpreting it. You might be right.
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Post by Giller on May 26, 2019 15:01:56 GMT -5
Deu 24:1 (1) When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.
| Mat 19:3 (3) The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?
| Mat 19:9 (9) And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
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Notice that in all the underlined things, they all say different things, Deuteronomy says:"found some uncleanness in her", the pharisees in Matthew said:"put away his wife for every cause", and Jesus said in Matthew:"except it be for fornication". In Deuteronomy, it does not specify what the uncleanness is, but it mentions some uncleanness. In Matthew, the pharisees seemed to come about with a view of divorcing a wife for any cause. And Jesus, specifically mentions one cause, which is fornication. We know that iniquity leads to uncleanness, in some form. And here is interesting information that I have found: (John Gill)
(...and saying to him, is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? be it ever so trivial, as said the school of Hillell: for there was a difference between the school of Shammai and the school of Hillell about this matter; the former insisted that a man might not put away his wife but in case of uncleanness; but the latter allowed putting away for very trifling things; as if she spoiled her husband's food by over roasting, or over salting it; and, as one of the doctors say, if he found another woman that was more beautiful than her;...)
(Joseph Benson)
(...Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? — That is, for any thing which he dislikes in her. “The school of Hillel taught, that a man might put away his wife for any cause. The son of Sirach saith, ‘If she go not as thou wouldest have her, cut her off from thy flesh, give her a bill of divorce, and let her go.’...)It seemed that the Pharisees adopted the view of Hillel. But in Deuteronomy, it does not mention divorce for any reason, but rather for the sake of uncleanness. So obviously, the pharisees had adopted a view that was erroneous. And I believe that Jesus brought things to a whole new level, which was not for the sake of some uncleanness, but for the sake of just one reason (one type of uncleanness), which is fornication. Here is another interesting comment: (Pulpit)
(...Ver 1. - Because he hath found some uncleanness in her; literally, a thing or matter of nakedness, i.e. some shameful thing, something disgraceful; LXX., ἄσχημον πρᾶγμα: Vulgate, "aliquam foeditatem." In the Targum of Onkelos, the expression is explained by עֲבֵירִת פִתֵגָם; "aliquid foeditatis" (London Polyglot); "iniquitas rei alicujus"(Buxtorf); "the transgression of a [Divine] word" (Levi)....)
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Cletus
Senior Member
Posts: 2,517
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Post by Cletus on May 26, 2019 19:24:22 GMT -5
I have a question here. If lusting after a woman is committing adultery in the heart then most every man would be guilty of committing adultery and therefor a woman could divorce her husband for it? i do not think so. that kind of lust is spiritual adultery.
plain old adultery is joining two flesh together.
either man or woman will be jealous and so it should be avoided. A wife is not a mans God. he can make her out to be but thats another topic.
the point of that verse you quoted is to show how to love God with our heart, an inner application of obedience. clean the inside of the cup. seeing this between man and woman is so we can see how it makes God feel, and be convicted. and repent. man is head of a marriage like Christ is head of the Church.
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Post by ladypeartree on May 27, 2019 7:33:29 GMT -5
Ok so from what I am reading here the ONLY reason for a divorce is adultery and nothing else at all so I am asking you to think about this ( and not because I feel I have done wrong but so anyone else coming here doesn't stay in a dangerous situation )
I was married when I was 18 ( he was a widower with two children and was 15 years older than me ) Within the first two years of our marriage he committed adultery with at least two women and had a child with one of them ( the child was then adopted ) I forgave him and stayed married Within the 10 years I remained in that marriage I had 4 children and was kept virtually a prisoner … I was not allowed out of the house unless he knew where I was going , had to take some but not all the children with me ( so I couldn't leave as I would have been leaving some of my children behind ) and was given a time to complete what I had to do and was punished if I was even a few minuets late Punishment could be physical .. being hit in places that no one would see or that could be explained away as me walking into a door etc or not being allowed to leave the house ( he nailed the windows shut and took all the money so I couldn't leave ) Or it could be mental abuse such as being kept up all night to do silly things that he wanted done or even raped ( although until recently there was no rape in marriage )
FINALLY he got so drunk he didn't take care and beat me so much that I ended up with a fractured skull broken jaw, several broken ribs and so many bruises you coudnt see my body for them and a face so swollen I couldn't be recognised THAT got me into a shelter and a lawyer for free so I could divorce him BUT ACCORDING TO WHAT IS BEING SAID HERE SINCE I HAD FORGIVEN THE ADULTERY I HAD NO GROUNDS TO DIVORCE HIM !!
( NO I have never remarried or even looked at another man in the past 38 years and he died apparently about 5 years ago but since he never saw or paid any maintenance for the children they only way I know he has died is because someone saw it on a face book page somewhere and told me about a year after he died ) BUT from what has been said here for over 30 years I was living in sin as I divorced him and not for adultery
I do not for one moment believe that I sinned in leaving my husband and taking my children to safety BUT if someone comes here in the same circumstances and reads these threads I am afraid they may feel they have to stay in such a position especially is they are new to faith and that could result in them being murdered !!
|Been praying for a way to say this without causing offence or appearing to condone divorce in an unbiblical situation but the only way I could do it was to tell it as it was and ask for you to try not to make anyone feel there is no hope )
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Post by Giller on May 27, 2019 8:22:06 GMT -5
Ok so from what I am reading here the ONLY reason for a divorce is adultery and nothing else at all so I am asking you to think about this ( and not because I feel I have done wrong but so anyone else coming here doesn't stay in a dangerous situation ) I was married when I was 18 ( he was a widower with two children and was 15 years older than me ) Within the first two years of our marriage he committed adultery with at least two women and had a child with one of them ( the child was then adopted ) I forgave him and stayed married Within the 10 years I remained in that marriage I had 4 children and was kept virtually a prisoner … I was not allowed out of the house unless he knew where I was going , had to take some but not all the children with me ( so I couldn't leave as I would have been leaving some of my children behind ) and was given a time to complete what I had to do and was punished if I was even a few minuets late Punishment could be physical .. being hit in places that no one would see or that could be explained away as me walking into a door etc or not being allowed to leave the house ( he nailed the windows shut and took all the money so I couldn't leave ) Or it could be mental abuse such as being kept up all night to do silly things that he wanted done or even raped ( although until recently there was no rape in marriage ) FINALLY he got so drunk he didn't take care and beat me so much that I ended up with a fractured skull broken jaw, several broken ribs and so many bruises you coudnt see my body for them and a face so swollen I couldn't be recognised THAT got me into a shelter and a lawyer for free so I could divorce him BUT ACCORDING TO WHAT IS BEING SAID HERE SINCE I HAD FORGIVEN THE ADULTERY I HAD NO GROUNDS TO DIVORCE HIM !! ( NO I have never remarried or even looked at another man in the past 38 years and he died apparently about 5 years ago but since he never saw or paid any maintenance for the children they only way I know he has died is because someone saw it on a face book page somewhere and told me about a year after he died ) BUT from what has been said here for over 30 years I was living in sin as I divorced him and not for adultery I do not for one moment believe that I sinned in leaving my husband and taking my children to safety BUT if someone comes here in the same circumstances and reads these threads I am afraid they may feel they have to stay in such a position especially is they are new to faith and that could result in them being murdered !! |Been praying for a way to say this without causing offence or appearing to condone divorce in an unbiblical situation but the only way I could do it was to tell it as it was and ask for you to try not to make anyone feel there is no hope ) I must admit that is a super tough situation, which I would not want upon anyone. Setting the divorce situation aside, I think that in certain circumstances to were there is abuse to this degree, to were you can be almost murdered, I am not saying that divorce is the key here, no, but I think in such circumstances, it would be right to be away from him and bring your children, and be in a safe place. Otherwise you could be killed. Love you Ladypeartree, I thank God at least today you are safe, and it seems that the situation is now gone, be blessed in the Lord, and God bless you.
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Post by John on May 27, 2019 8:44:41 GMT -5
It is also possible to separate without seeking a divorce.
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