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Post by ladypeartree on May 27, 2019 9:13:01 GMT -5
not and stay safe in this case as in many others as I could only get an injunction to keep him away if I also got a divorce or it could be that he could claim he wanted to reconcile ( as he did when I left him after he threatened me with a knife to my throat ...I tried again after sooo many promises and he just became more violent and controlling )
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Post by John on May 27, 2019 9:15:03 GMT -5
Ok so from what I am reading here the ONLY reason for a divorce is adultery and nothing else at all so I am asking you to think about this ( and not because I feel I have done wrong but so anyone else coming here doesn't stay in a dangerous situation ) I was married when I was 18 ( he was a widower with two children and was 15 years older than me ) Within the first two years of our marriage he committed adultery with at least two women and had a child with one of them ( the child was then adopted ) I forgave him and stayed married Within the 10 years I remained in that marriage I had 4 children and was kept virtually a prisoner … I was not allowed out of the house unless he knew where I was going , had to take some but not all the children with me ( so I couldn't leave as I would have been leaving some of my children behind ) and was given a time to complete what I had to do and was punished if I was even a few minuets late Punishment could be physical .. being hit in places that no one would see or that could be explained away as me walking into a door etc or not being allowed to leave the house ( he nailed the windows shut and took all the money so I couldn't leave ) Or it could be mental abuse such as being kept up all night to do silly things that he wanted done or even raped ( although until recently there was no rape in marriage ) FINALLY he got so drunk he didn't take care and beat me so much that I ended up with a fractured skull broken jaw, several broken ribs and so many bruises you coudnt see my body for them and a face so swollen I couldn't be recognised THAT got me into a shelter and a lawyer for free so I could divorce him BUT ACCORDING TO WHAT IS BEING SAID HERE SINCE I HAD FORGIVEN THE ADULTERY I HAD NO GROUNDS TO DIVORCE HIM !! ( NO I have never remarried or even looked at another man in the past 38 years and he died apparently about 5 years ago but since he never saw or paid any maintenance for the children they only way I know he has died is because someone saw it on a face book page somewhere and told me about a year after he died ) BUT from what has been said here for over 30 years I was living in sin as I divorced him and not for adultery I do not for one moment believe that I sinned in leaving my husband and taking my children to safety BUT if someone comes here in the same circumstances and reads these threads I am afraid they may feel they have to stay in such a position especially is they are new to faith and that could result in them being murdered !! |Been praying for a way to say this without causing offence or appearing to condone divorce in an unbiblical situation but the only way I could do it was to tell it as it was and ask for you to try not to make anyone feel there is no hope ) I know there are some who might disagree with what I am going to say, but I believe they are in the minority. I would have advised you to leave your husband in this instance. It is a shame you didn't leave when he committed adultery, as you had every right to do. Paul must have seen that there would be situations like this, because even though he said not to leave your spouse if they are content to remain with you, he also said that if you depart, remain unmarried or be restored to your spouse.
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Post by John on May 27, 2019 9:15:43 GMT -5
not and stay safe in this case as in many others as I could only get an injunction to keep him away if I also got a divorce or it could be that he could claim he wanted to reconcile ( as he did when I left him after he threatened me with a knife to my throat ...I tried again after sooo many promises and he just became more violent and controlling ) That makes sense.
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Post by Giller on May 27, 2019 10:15:56 GMT -5
Wow that is tough stuff, you mentioned this ladypeartree:"...I could only get an injunction to keep him away if I also got a divorce or it could be that he could claim he wanted to reconcile..."
It is almost as if the government, is forcing divorce in order to get an injunction, wow, not easy times for the Christian.
I am truly glad that today you are safe though, God bless.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2019 12:39:18 GMT -5
not and stay safe in this case as in many others as I could only get an injunction to keep him away if I also got a divorce or it could be that he could claim he wanted to reconcile ( as he did when I left him after he threatened me with a knife to my throat ...I tried again after sooo many promises and he just became more violent and controlling ) The issue for the Lord is sexual purity........so I believe divorce can certainly be just for legal and safety purposes, while you remain chaste and married in your heart and open to reconciling with your husband (and re-marrying him legally) should God have ever gotten hold of your spouse to change him. If he had committed adultery or married another in the meantime you would have been free to remarry.....and if he is dead now, you are of course free to remarry if you so wish. But you would probably be happier as you are, and much freer to devote yourself to the Lord. Only God can change and deliver someone so possessed like that in any case....Christian women need to be supported and encouraged to not be deceived by the crocodile tears of abusive husbands without first seeing the fruits of true repentance and a changed life. It's just appalling how the churches have no clue how to deal with these things and come to the aid of their abused sisters in their midst. "Religion" is a form of blindness...even the children of the world are wiser than the children of light in these cases.
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Cletus
Senior Member
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Post by Cletus on May 27, 2019 14:56:31 GMT -5
Ok so from what I am reading here the ONLY reason for a divorce is adultery and nothing else at all so I am asking you to think about this ( and not because I feel I have done wrong but so anyone else coming here doesn't stay in a dangerous situation ) I was married when I was 18 ( he was a widower with two children and was 15 years older than me ) Within the first two years of our marriage he committed adultery with at least two women and had a child with one of them ( the child was then adopted ) I forgave him and stayed married Within the 10 years I remained in that marriage I had 4 children and was kept virtually a prisoner … I was not allowed out of the house unless he knew where I was going , had to take some but not all the children with me ( so I couldn't leave as I would have been leaving some of my children behind ) and was given a time to complete what I had to do and was punished if I was even a few minuets late Punishment could be physical .. being hit in places that no one would see or that could be explained away as me walking into a door etc or not being allowed to leave the house ( he nailed the windows shut and took all the money so I couldn't leave ) Or it could be mental abuse such as being kept up all night to do silly things that he wanted done or even raped ( although until recently there was no rape in marriage ) FINALLY he got so drunk he didn't take care and beat me so much that I ended up with a fractured skull broken jaw, several broken ribs and so many bruises you coudnt see my body for them and a face so swollen I couldn't be recognised THAT got me into a shelter and a lawyer for free so I could divorce him BUT ACCORDING TO WHAT IS BEING SAID HERE SINCE I HAD FORGIVEN THE ADULTERY I HAD NO GROUNDS TO DIVORCE HIM !! ( NO I have never remarried or even looked at another man in the past 38 years and he died apparently about 5 years ago but since he never saw or paid any maintenance for the children they only way I know he has died is because someone saw it on a face book page somewhere and told me about a year after he died ) BUT from what has been said here for over 30 years I was living in sin as I divorced him and not for adultery I do not for one moment believe that I sinned in leaving my husband and taking my children to safety BUT if someone comes here in the same circumstances and reads these threads I am afraid they may feel they have to stay in such a position especially is they are new to faith and that could result in them being murdered !! |Been praying for a way to say this without causing offence or appearing to condone divorce in an unbiblical situation but the only way I could do it was to tell it as it was and ask for you to try not to make anyone feel there is no hope ) i do not believe God expects anyone to stay in that kind of life. I would do anything I could to help someone out of that situation if it was known to me and i had the ability.
i am very careful in speaking on this topic. so i try not to say this or that is right or wrong. we can see what the bible says. I try to let everyone make up their own mind on this topic because they have to have their own conscious clear. I do not always point this out, but because you came forward with all this i want to. I also want to thank you for putting your personal life out there. lets look at The Word, and let each decide for themselves what is right.
1Co 7:15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.
G5563 χωρίζω chōrizō kho-rid'-zo From G5561; to place room between, that is, part; reflexively to go away: - depart, put asunder, separate. Total KJV occurrences: 13
often this word for depart held a more common meaning of "to place room between" does this mean out the door and gone? well, lets consider biblical precepts on abusive behavior, and this departing.
how about when David left Sauls court? was David in rebellion? granted they are not married, but this is the best i can come up with, if you agree good, if you do not agree, that is for you good also. but think about this... it was because of Sauls abusive behavior David departed... so who put the separation... who put the distance? is it about who physically walked out... or who pushed away? And also... whos court was it? and David was the believer... but it was Him who departed/walked... uhm... left. words in english are not exactly what their counterpart is in hebrew or greek. i think serious consideration should be given... not as a means to justify what we want tho. judge it in righteousness.
now this is where a whole bunch of points come up, well that verse in 1Cor was focused to unbelievers behavior. David and Saul were not in a covenant to remain together until death do you part. But my question then is... Is the abuser honoring Gods covenant? Is the abuser in unbelief? and Is the abuser putting you away? pushing you away? and also... what did God do in the end to Saul because over and over he did not honor Gods covenants and statues?
I am not saying divorce is justified or not. thats between someone else and God. What I will say is re-marriage may or may not be justified... here is the kicker, to me anyway. its remarrying that would bring one to be an adulterer/ess if done without regard.
If your husband had not "put distance between" would have left?
I do want to close with that again, i am not saying this as to be the standard. I think its case by case. i do not support divorce unless its for cheating and one cant forgive it. Even more though, i would say With God, ... forgiveness can be had as we can do all things thru Christ. personally i do not see what difference it makes if one separates but remains married compared to separating and divorcing. My guess would be the hope of restoration, which God does well. I am open to what anyone has to say on this, and scripture. If someone has an understanding on this then i would consider it, basically i am open. Furthermore, God has never used me to council others in in this, to help restore a relationship in they were not seperated, yes, so i do not know everything about this... but this is how i see it. i am also not saying for someone who is being abused to get divorced... but that i do not think God expects them to be a doormat.
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Post by ladypeartree on May 28, 2019 3:06:03 GMT -5
Thank you for thinking through this I didn't post to get sympathy ( God has provided in abundance and has always been " there for me " even in the darkest of times ) but that you may have a clearer understanding especially if you are dealing with a new Christian than is trying to live both literally and in a bible led way God bless you all xx
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PG4Him
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Essay Moderator
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Post by PG4Him on May 28, 2019 7:09:53 GMT -5
To add to what ladypeartree said, let’s remember the difference between marriage vows in church and marriage laws of the government. Couples who need permanent separation (due to abuse, crime, etc) really have no choice to get rid of the government marriage. So many things are tied into legal marriages. I’ve seen psychotic men put children on their health insurance just so they can find out where the mother is. Call up the insurance company, say ‘hey I haven’t been getting any documents, what address is on file for my daughter?’ Bingo, they got the mother’s address. These things happen. You can’t stay legally or financially connected to a spouse in this society without them finding you. But in terms of relationship, you can still consider it a permanent separation.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2019 13:42:36 GMT -5
As children of God and citizens of heaven we are not bound by laws of man, only by laws of God...but we keep the laws of man so long as they don't contravene God's laws, in submission to God-given government authorities for His sake, and also so as to avoid the appearance of sin.
One thing I have wondered about is whether we should actually be making vows in marriage....the intentions of the heart and marriage act itself is really the wedding, when the two become one flesh. We are to simply let our yes be yes or no, no because anything more than this comes from the evil one. Oaths put people under bondage rather than keeping their marriage bed pure freely...obeying the Lord in freedom and not under compulsion. I even wonder if it brings an unnecessary hindrance into the marriage from the evil one. Maybe others know more about it, but from what I understood when I tried to check into it, the weddings in ancient Israel did not involve vows. There was a bridal contract for the betrothal which both parties agreed to and then the wedding itself was a simple but festive bringing together of the betrothed couple, with witnesses in attendance to establish/seal the marriage.
I believe it's not a coincidence that Jesus spoke about not making oaths immediately after talking about marriage/divorce. He foresaw what would be made of wedding ceremonies, just like He foresaw calling Christian leadership Father.
Mat 5:31-37 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery. Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
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Post by joseph on May 28, 2019 15:16:17 GMT -5
As children of God and citizens of heaven we are not bound by laws of man, only by laws of God...but we keep the laws of man so long as they don't contravene God's laws, in submission to God-given government authorities for His sake, and also so as to avoid the appearance of sin. One thing I have wondered about is whether we should actually be making vows in marriage....the intentions of the heart and marriage act itself is really the wedding, when the two become one flesh. We are to simply let our yes be yes or no, no because anything more than this comes from the evil one. Oaths put people under bondage rather than keeping their marriage bed pure freely...obeying the Lord in freedom and not under compulsion. I even wonder if it brings an unnecessary hindrance into the marriage from the evil one. Maybe others know more about it, but from what I understood when I tried to check into it, the weddings in ancient Israel did not involve vows. There was a bridal contract for the betrothal which both parties agreed to and then the wedding itself was a simple but festive bringing together of the betrothed couple, with witnesses in attendance to establish/seal the marriage. I believe it's not a coincidence that Jesus spoke about not making oaths immediately after talking about marriage/divorce. He foresaw what would be made of wedding ceremonies, just like He foresaw calling Christian leadership Father. Mat 5:31-37 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery. Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.For those who are Ekklesia, true citizens of heaven, born again by the Will of the Father from Heaven not by the will of man, and not living by the will of man, life is different. (than everyone else's). Every day vows are made and broken. Promises given, and not kept. Even (so-called) vows/committments/ to God the Creator, yet almost always without truth and without experiential knowledge of His Word and His Will ..... people carelessly make a vow or committment (even in marriage), and most are not alive in Christ anyway, so what they do only compounds their sin, --- it does not condemn them because they are already condemned because of unbelief. That is the kind of very dangerous society all around. Very deceptive. Very deadly! (remember, it is JUST BARELY the RIGHTEOUS ARE SAVED!!) Better then, in any case, not to make vows, nor even promises, only to be broken already in one's heart, and later when convenient.
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Post by 2fw8212a on May 28, 2019 15:19:57 GMT -5
One thing I have wondered about is whether we should actually be making vows in marriage... Marriage is not something disposable.
If anyone is planning to start something that will fail then it is better they do not start.
"For which of you, intending to build a tower,
does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it -
lest, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him,
saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish’?" - Luke 14:28-30
In the same way, if you do not have or is not interested in having the required love for marriage. Then do not marry.
Otherwise you will fail, and you would have worked in vain.
"...He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing." - John 15:5
"Abide in Me, and I in you.
As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine,
neither can you, unless you abide in Me." - John 15:4
Another mistake people make, especially women, is to choose the wrong person to be married.
Then, only after they have been married they discover they married with a monster they cannot control.
Only marry with people God has chosen for you, and fight for it (marriage) until the end because was God who chose and not yourself.
God does not make mistakes.
Blessings!
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Post by joseph on May 28, 2019 15:52:46 GMT -5
Deuteronomy 22:28-29
“If a man finds a girl who is a virgin, who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her and they are discovered,
then the man who lay with her shall give to the girl’s father fifty shekels of silver, and
she shall become his wife because he has violated her;
he cannot divorce her all his days.”
God does not make mistakes.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2019 16:43:20 GMT -5
One thing I have wondered about is whether we should actually be making vows in marriage... Marriage is not something disposable.
If anyone is planning to start something that will fail then it is better they do not start.
"For which of you, intending to build a tower,
does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it -
lest, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him,
saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish’?" - Luke 14:28-30
In the same way, if you do not have or is not interested in having the required love for marriage. Then do not marry.
Otherwise you will fail, and you would have worked in vain.
"...He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing." - John 15:5
"Abide in Me, and I in you.
As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine,
neither can you, unless you abide in Me." - John 15:4
Another mistake people make, especially women, is to choose the wrong person to be married.
Then, only after they have been married they discover they married with a monster they cannot control.
Only marry with people God has chosen for you, and fight for it (marriage) until the end because was God who chose and not yourself.
God does not make mistakes.
Blessings!Amen, no indeed, marriage is not disposable....I don't know if you misunderstand what I meant or not, or were just using that as a jumping off point for further thoughts. Yes it might be that women are sometimes more apt to be deceived and taken in. I believe that premarital sex can cause us to be blind to the other person's true character, as well...a kind of consequence/judgment for that sin. I'm in 1,000 percent agreement with inquiring of the Lord with regard to one's potential spouse...and then heeding His reply.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2019 16:54:15 GMT -5
Deuteronomy 22:28-29 “If a man finds a girl who is a virgin, who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her and they are discovered, then the man who lay with her shall give to the girl’s father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall become his wife because he has violated her; he cannot divorce her all his days.” God does not make mistakes. This was to avoid impurity and defiling the land.....tutoring/teaching an aspect of God's character and ways that we are to walk in. Purity. But now there is grace and also believers are not to be unequally yoked with unbelievers, so Christians are not required to marry their daughters off to rapists, thankfully! God does not make mistakes, but people often do. Yet the Lord has foreseen all our mistakes and has already gone before to work it all together for the good of those who love Him.
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Post by joseph on May 28, 2019 16:57:56 GMT -5
Marriage is not something disposable.
If anyone is planning to start something that will fail then it is better they do not start.
"For which of you, intending to build a tower,
does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it -
lest, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him,
saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish’?" - Luke 14:28-30
In the same way, if you do not have or is not interested in having the required love for marriage. Then do not marry.
Otherwise you will fail, and you would have worked in vain.
"...He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing." - John 15:5
"Abide in Me, and I in you.
As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine,
neither can you, unless you abide in Me." - John 15:4
Another mistake people make, especially women, is to choose the wrong person to be married.
Then, only after they have been married they discover they married with a monster they cannot control.
Only marry with people God has chosen for you, and fight for it (marriage) until the end because was God who chose and not yourself.
God does not make mistakes.
Blessings! Amen, no indeed, marriage is not disposable....I don't know if you misunderstand what I meant or not, or were just using that as a jumping off point for further thoughts. Yes it might be that women are sometimes more apt to be deceived and taken in. I believe that premarital sex can cause us to be blind to the other person's true character, as well...a kind of consequence/judgment for that sin. I'm in 1,000 percent agreement with inquiring of the Lord with regard to one's potential spouse...and then heeding His reply. If a 'boy and girl' / man and woman engage in sex (outside marriage), ('premarital') THEY BECOME ONE FLESH. (yes, already, even without being officially thought of "married") . It is already done - the sinful deed (starting with sinful souls/ thoughts/ in the heart) , and has consequences as written in Scripture.
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