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Post by joseph on May 29, 2019 9:15:17 GMT -5
I have a question here. If lusting after a woman is committing adultery in the heart then most every man would be guilty of committing adultery and therefor a woman could divorce her husband for it? Every man is guilty of sin , and the penalty of sin is death (eternal usually). Adding another sin (divorce) simply makes it more devastating to the woman and to the man, .... only by trusting the Father in heaven, Yahuweh, is there "a way of enduring"/ or escape if He provides relief/ atonement/ redemption. Yahuweh (God) made everything simple, man complicated it with many devices (errors, sins, deceptions, excuses).
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Post by joseph on May 29, 2019 9:44:19 GMT -5
Amen...cases of adultery/fornication. And I believe also that in cases of marriage between a believer and unbeliever, if the unbelieving spouse departs, the believing spouse is no longer bound to the marriage, as Paul wrote. (Whereas when there is separation between two believers, the believers are still bound to the marriage but just living apart, unless one commits adultery or remarries during that time of separation.) Sorry, I didn't understand what you meant by the point about Herod, brother, hard for me to concentrate lately, but just to mention that Herod and company were under the Law, however believers, Jew or Gentile, are not under the Law ever since it got nailed to the cross. The Law says that a man cannot marry his brother's wife as long as the brother is still living (I think even when there has been a legal divorce).....that is the specific Law that John was upholding. John's ministry was before the cross, and he was the last and greatest prophet under the Law, and upheld the Law. Isn't it incredible to think that the least in the kingdom of heaven under the new covenant is greater than John the Baptist......because the new covenant is greater than the Law, and purchased our liberty from it. Where do you think it is written that the "new covenant" "purchased our liberty from it" (the Law/ TORAH) ?
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Post by John on May 29, 2019 10:13:29 GMT -5
We should try to obey God's laws. It just sounds like an imperfect person. I can't judge if a person is saved just by that.
Before we continue lets make something even clearer . Was herod , phillip , or Herodias actual true beleivers . NO . YET john told HIM STILL its not lawful for you to have your brothers wife . Let us remember this . Because lots of folks will start making up excuses to how they can leave those wives or husbands . WHEN in fact they cant . The only reason one can remarry , is if it was the cause of fornication . As you said already butero . Cause I can see right now we gonna have folks saying , well my first husband believed , but was he considered a believer if this or that . Doing anything to try and justify a reason for remarriage . Ladies , if your husband did not commit fornication against you , NO REMARRIAGE , HUSBANDS the same for you .
People are always seeking loopholes like you said, but they were under the old covenant when this occurred, and John had warned Herod that according to the law of Moses, what he did was a transgression. Still, that doesn't change what you said about people misusing the passage in 1 Corinthians.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2019 10:14:09 GMT -5
Amen...cases of adultery/fornication. And I believe also that in cases of marriage between a believer and unbeliever, if the unbelieving spouse departs, the believing spouse is no longer bound to the marriage, as Paul wrote. (Whereas when there is separation between two believers, the believers are still bound to the marriage but just living apart, unless one commits adultery or remarries during that time of separation.) Sorry, I didn't understand what you meant by the point about Herod, brother, hard for me to concentrate lately, but just to mention that Herod and company were under the Law, however believers, Jew or Gentile, are not under the Law ever since it got nailed to the cross. The Law says that a man cannot marry his brother's wife as long as the brother is still living (I think even when there has been a legal divorce).....that is the specific Law that John was upholding. John's ministry was before the cross, and he was the last and greatest prophet under the Law, and upheld the Law. Isn't it incredible to think that the least in the kingdom of heaven under the new covenant is greater than John the Baptist......because the new covenant is greater than the Law, and purchased our liberty from it. Where do you think it is written that the "new covenant" "purchased our liberty from it" (the Law/ TORAH) ? Gal 3:23-25 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. Gal 4:1-7 Now I say that the heir, as long as he is a child, does not differ at all from a slave, though he is master of all, but is under guardians and stewards until the time appointed by the father. Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world. But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born[fn] of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!” Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of[fn] God through Christ. 1Co 8:9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak. 1Co 10:29 Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience? 2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. Gal 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage: Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. Jas 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. Jas 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. 1Pe 2:16 As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2019 11:07:13 GMT -5
Amen. If one spouse becomes one flesh with another, then they have broken their marriage covenant with their spouse. No. The two who became one by Yahuweh (God) putting the two together ("what Yahuweh has put together") can, Yahuweh Willing, still be one for the rest of their lives. "Justification" His Way, for sin, when He Says, is then "just as if never sinned", for any sin 'covered' when TORAH is properly understood. He hates divorce, and says so very very definitely. Some of the "excuses" claimed , rather most of the time, (even "as if" Biblically), are not valid in His Sight (and He Sees Everything) . Yes He hates divorce....especially unjust divorce, men divorcing and abandoning their wives willy nilly to a life of poverty and homelessness just because the bloom has gone off the rose or they are bored or spotted someone prettier. Remember He is talking to men about dealing treacherously with the wife of their youth in those passages. God hating divorce doesn't mean He doesn't make concessions. He is God, He can do what He pleases, and under the new covenant He has been gracious to make concessions under a couple of circumstances, in His wisdom. Divorce doesn't necessarily mean they aren't forgiving their unfaithful spouse...one can forgive and hold no ill will while still deciding it is best to end the marriage. Just as God may forgive us some sin while still leaving us with the consequences of that sin. Unfaithfulness does real damage to a marriage relationship...not everyone is able to resume an intimate relationship with someone who has essentially just become a stranger to them rather than a trusted mate. Or the cheating spouse may not even be remorseful...God knows there can be so many variables in people and relationships and circumstances, so He has given the innocent party the option, in His wisdom. And just in general I want to say that not everyone looking for a way out are seeking "excuses" to be free to indulge their lust with a new spouse or get out of responsibilities, etc. Many are suffering terribly within a marriage with far more serious problems than someone leaving the toilet seat up or down. Who doesn't look for a way out of trials when they come our way, of course people usually hope and look for ways to improve their circumstances when they are suffering. We need to have room for compassion. But after their time of searching and seeking, and counting the cost, those who love the Lord and love the truth will keep themselves to His word.
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Post by joseph on May 29, 2019 11:14:15 GMT -5
People are always seeking loopholes like you said, but they were under the old covenant when this occurred, and John had warned Herod that according to the law of Moses, what he did was a transgression. Still, that doesn't change what you said about people misusing the passage in 1 Corinthians.
1 John 3 ► Weymouth New testament Children of God 1See what marvellous love the Father has bestowed upon us—that we should be called God's children: and that is what we are. For this reason the world does not recognize us—because it has not known Him. 2Dear friends, we are now God's children, but what we are to be in the future has not yet been fully revealed. We know that if Christ reappears we shall be like Him, because we shall see Him as He is. 3And every man who has this hope fixed on Him, purifies himself so as to be as pure as He is. 4Every one who is guilty of sin is also guilty of violating Law; for sin is the violation of Law. 5And you know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. 6No one who continues in union with Him lives in sin: no one who lives in sin has seen Him or knows Him. 7Dear children, let no one lead you astray. The man who acts righteously is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who is habitually guilty of sin is a child of the Devil, because the Devil has been a sinner from the very beginning. The Son of God appeared for the purpose of undoing the work of the Devil. 9No one who is a child of God is habitually guilty of sin. A God-given germ of life remains in him, and he cannot habitually sin—because he is a child of God. 10 By this we can distinguish God's children and the Devil's children: no one who fails to act righteously is a child of God, nor he who does not love his brother man. ------------------------------------------- Aramaic Bible in Plain English But whoever commits sin commits evil, for sin is entirely evil. GOD'S WORD® Translation Those who live sinful lives are disobeying God. Sin is disobedience. 1 John 3:8,9 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil… -------------------------------------------
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Post by joseph on May 29, 2019 11:16:35 GMT -5
1 John 3:4 - CJB - Everyone who keeps sinning is violating Torah -... www.biblestudytools.com/cjb/1-john/3-4.html1 John 3:4 Everyone who keeps sinning is violating Torah - indeed, sin is violation of Torah. The Complete Jewish Bible.
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Post by joseph on May 29, 2019 11:40:07 GMT -5
Hebrews 10:38
KJ21 Now the just shall live by faith; but if any man draw back, My soul shall have no pleasure in him.”
ASV But my righteous one shall live by faith: And if he shrink back, my soul hath no pleasure in him.
AMP But My righteous one [the one justified by faith] shall live by faith [respecting man’s relationship to God and trusting Him]; And if he draws back [shrinking in fear], My soul has no delight in him.
AMPC But the just shall live by faith [My righteous servant shall live by his conviction respecting man’s relationship to God and divine things, and holy fervor born of faith and conjoined with it]; and if he draws back and shrinks in fear, My soul has no delight or pleasure in him.
BRG Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
CSB But my righteous one will live by faith; and if he draws back, I have no pleasure in him.
CEB but my righteous one will live by faith, and my whole being won’t be pleased with anyone who shrinks back.
CJB But the person who is righteous will live his life by trusting, and if he shrinks back, I will not be pleased with him.”
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2019 12:44:04 GMT -5
1Ti 1:8-10 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine
So how do we, being no longer sinners and in bondage to the Law, use the law lawfully under the new covenant law of liberty and love? This is how:
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness
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Post by joseph on May 29, 2019 12:48:01 GMT -5
1Ti 1:8-10 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrineSo how do we, being no longer sinners and in bondage to the Law, use the law lawfully under the new covenant law of liberty and love? This is how: 2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness Just to verify then, who is the TORAH for ?
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Dezi
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Post by Dezi on May 29, 2019 13:54:08 GMT -5
I've heard so many arguments for both sides of this question that I am just more confused than ever now.
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Post by joseph on May 29, 2019 14:43:53 GMT -5
I've heard so many arguments for both sides of this question that I am just more confused than ever now. GOOD ! Or, Rather, - BETTER than most people , who instead of being confused, both believe and 'teach' wrongly, not understanding Scripture nor the power of God. However, as James says clearly and simply, ask the Father for His Wisdom, and He Cheerfully grants His Understanding without adding any shame nor remorse. (Jesus BORE all of OUR (Ekklesia) GUILT, and all of our (Ekklesia) SHAME, every bit, Himself.... as written in His Word) Yes, the Father in heaven is WILLING and ABLE to grant understanding to everyone who asks Him (but always asking with no double-mindedness), just as His Word Says. i.e. the truth is NOT understood correctly, nor revealed, by ANY NUMBER of arguments nor debates, nor ever to the "old man"/ the flesh/ but as written, by revelation from the Father to 'little children' (His children).
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Post by John on May 29, 2019 16:02:30 GMT -5
I've heard so many arguments for both sides of this question that I am just more confused than ever now. Our views are all different, but there has been one thing in common. Everyone here has said they believe that divorce and re-marriage, except for the case of adultery is not allowed. The differences appear over divorce, and what is acceptable grounds for that.
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Post by John on May 29, 2019 16:03:58 GMT -5
I've heard so many arguments for both sides of this question that I am just more confused than ever now. GOOD ! Or, Rather, - BETTER than most people , who instead of being confused, both believe and 'teach' wrongly, not understanding Scripture nor the power of God. However, as James says clearly and simply, ask the Father for His Wisdom, and He Cheerfully grants His Understanding without adding any shame nor remorse. (Jesus BORE all of OUR (Ekklesia) GUILT, and all of our (Ekklesia) SHAME, every bit, Himself.... as written in His Word) Yes, the Father in heaven is WILLING and ABLE to grant understanding to everyone who asks Him (but always asking with no double-mindedness), just as His Word Says. i.e. the truth is NOT understood correctly, nor revealed, by ANY NUMBER of arguments nor debates, nor ever to the "old man"/ the flesh/ but as written, by revelation from the Father to 'little children' (His children). I don't think her being confused is a good thing. God is not the author of confusion. That is a very frustrating place to be.
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Post by joseph on May 29, 2019 16:21:51 GMT -5
GOOD ! Or, Rather, - BETTER than most people , who instead of being confused, both believe and 'teach' wrongly, not understanding Scripture nor the power of God. However, as James says clearly and simply, ask the Father for His Wisdom, and He Cheerfully grants His Understanding without adding any shame nor remorse. (Jesus BORE all of OUR (Ekklesia) GUILT, and all of our (Ekklesia) SHAME, every bit, Himself.... as written in His Word) Yes, the Father in heaven is WILLING and ABLE to grant understanding to everyone who asks Him (but always asking with no double-mindedness), just as His Word Says. i.e. the truth is NOT understood correctly, nor revealed, by ANY NUMBER of arguments nor debates, nor ever to the "old man"/ the flesh/ but as written, by revelation from the Father to 'little children' (His children). I don't think her being confused is a good thing. God is not the author of confusion. That is a very frustrating place to be. Rather, note the comparison. For a very extraordinary different comparison - when exposed to (as multitudes of people on earth are) false catholic teachings , doctrines and practices, it is 'better' to be / to see/ the confusion in that INSTEAD OF believing what is false. Peace (lack of confusion) in darkness is not good. Confusion, at any time possibly, is a good indication that something is not right (i.e. not of God) , and thus to turn to Yahuweh (God) for what is true and right, to learn from Him, and to abide in His Peace, in truth, in the LIGHT (JESUS)..
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