|
Post by John on May 29, 2019 15:28:16 GMT -5
There is a popular teaching that has been circulating in the church world for as long as I can remember. It goes like this. "God gave the law of Moses with it's trillion laws (actually it can be any number made up for effect, however much you can convince people is right) to show us how hopeless it is to try to keep it so we will know how much we need grace." Is that true? Is there any scripture anywhere in the Old or New Testament that says this? Did Jesus or the Apostles teach this?
The closest thing I can come up with anyone can point to is Paul describing the struggle to obey the law, and failing time after time in Romans. If you are talking about never messing up, you are right. You can't keep the law perfectly, but at the same time, God made the law of Moses where everyone could keep it. How? By instituting the Levitical Priesthood. He knew that people would do things that were unclean in his sight by accident, so he set up a system of animal sacrifices for when people erred by mistake. People that did their best to obey God's commandments and sacrificed animals when they came up short were keeping the law of Moses. Failing to keep the law of Moses was committing intentional sins, called presumptuous sins in the Old Testament, and that led to them being cut off from Israel.
Now we come to the New Testament. Is it possible for anyone to obey God perfectly today? Again, if you mean never having a bad thought or making a mistake, absolutely not, but God has that covered. Jesus went to the cross to pay for all sins anyone could ever commit, and when you accept him as Lord and Savior, all your past sins and those done by mistake are automatically under the blood covering. How do you fail to obey the Lord today and lose that blood covering? By committing willful sins, known as presumptuous sins in the Old Testament. They are not under that original blood covering, and they will cause you to lose salvation if you do not repent. The church is spiritual Israel, and you will be cut off from Israel. The only remedy for willful sins, is confession of those sins. If you confess them, Jesus will wash them away and cleanse you from all unrighteousness.
|
|
|
Post by joseph on May 29, 2019 16:46:27 GMT -5
quote " there is a sin that leads to death; I (Jesus) do not say to pray for that one....
there is sin that does not lead to death; pray for that one "
end quote. And again , for some (however many, even multitudes), "there is no longer any sacrifice for (their) sin" i.e. no chance to repent and be forgiven any longer.
re: "Jesus went to the cross to pay for all sins anyone could ever commit"
|
|
|
Post by 2fw8212a on May 29, 2019 16:59:32 GMT -5
...to show us how hopeless it is to try to keep it so we will know how much we need grace."
Is that true? Is there any scripture anywhere in the Old or New Testament that says this? Did Jesus or the Apostles teach this?
In fact, if anyone follows the Old Testament laws by the letter they will develop a very unmerciful behavior and the law will become their god.
As the flesh is deceitful, and it loves itself, then it will seek to apply the law by the letter only on others.
But the flesh will be merciful to itself, as it is written:
"For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it..." - Ephesians 5:29
A quick example:
1. The law says that if you drink water after 5pm you should be stoned to death.
2. A pharisee sees a man drinking water after 5pm, then he thinks: Time to worship God and honor Him by keeping His law.
3. He asks the man: Why did you drink water after 5pm? It is against the law.
The man answer: But I was SO thirsty... Please, have mercy!
The man is stoned to death with no mercy because: We need to keep God's law.
"You shall not murder." - Exodus 20:13
"Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment." - John 7:24
4. It is past 5pm. The pharisee finds himself thirsty and he wants to drink water but the law says: Do not drink after 5pm.
5. The pharisee knows no one is watching so he decides to be merciful to himself and give him water anyway.
"For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it..." - Ephesians 5:29
"Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets." - Matthew 7:12
"For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this:
“You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”" - Galatians 5:14
That is the problem of the law interpreted by the flesh. The flesh is always against God and always good to itself.
"For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment
because of its weakness and unprofitableness, for the law made nothing perfect..." - Hebrews 7:18-19
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!
For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law:
justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone." - Matthew 23:23
"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be." - Romans 8:7
Blessings in Jesus' name!
|
|
|
Post by joseph on May 29, 2019 17:10:13 GMT -5
In fact, if anyone follows the Old Testament laws by the letter they will develop a very unmerciful behavior and the law will become their god.
As the flesh is deceitful, and it loves itself, then it will seek to apply the law by the letter only on others.
But the flesh will be merciful to itself, as it is written:
"For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it..." - Ephesians 5:29
A quick example:
1. The law says that if you drink water after 5pm you should be stoned to death.
2. A pharisee sees a man drinking water after 5pm, then he thinks: Time to worship God and honor Him by keeping His law.
3. He asks the man: Why did you drink water after 5pm? It is against the law.
The man answer: But I was SO thirsty... Please, have mercy!
The man is stoned to death with no mercy because: We need to keep God's law.
"You shall not murder." - Exodus 20:13
"Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment." - John 7:24
4. It is past 5pm. The pharisee finds himself thirsty and he wants to drink water but the law says: Do not drink after 5pm.
5. The pharisee knows no one is watching so he decides to be merciful to himself and give him water anyway.
"For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it..." - Ephesians 5:29
"Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets." - Matthew 7:12
"For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this:
“You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”" - Galatians 5:14
That is the problem of the law interpreted by the flesh. The flesh is always against God and always good to itself.
"For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment
because of its weakness and unprofitableness, for the law made nothing perfect..." - Hebrews 7:18-19
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!
For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law:
justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone." - Matthew 23:23
"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be." - Romans 8:7
Blessings in Jesus' name! This quoted post (and ideas included in it) is very inaccurate and incorrect. Remember that Jesus and His Followers Listened to Moses and honored TORAH. They did not try to (privately) interpret Scripture (as that is forbidden) NOR did Jesus and His Followers walk in the flesh (they were chastised and corrected by Ekklesia when they did ) nor in the letter of the law that kills, but rather in the spirit of TORAH that gives life. They all knew TORAH better than anyone here today, and worshiped Yahuweh (God) in spirit and in truth daily living in union with Him (echad). ========================================================== Romans 8:2-4 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB) 2 Why? Because the Torah of the Spirit, which produces this life in union with Messiah Yeshua, has set me free from the “Torah” of sin and death. 3 For what the Torah could not do by itself, because it lacked the power to make the old nature cooperate, God did by sending his own Son as a human being with a nature like our own sinful one [but without sin]. God did this in order to deal with sin, and in so doing he executed the punishment against sin in human nature, 4 so that the just requirement of the Torah might be fulfilled in us who do not run our lives according to what our old nature wants but according to what the Spirit wants. Complete Jewish Bible (CJB) Copyright © 1998 by David H. Stern. All rights reserved.
|
|
|
Post by 2fw8212a on May 29, 2019 17:14:33 GMT -5
Now we come to the New Testament. Is it possible for anyone to obey God perfectly today?
"Jesus said to him,
“If you can believe, all things are possible to him who believes.”" - Mark 9:23
"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also..." - John 14:12
What makes people unwilling to obey God and to believe in Him is their impure heart.
As a comparison, a little children will believe many impossible things you say to them.
But an adult with a more contaminated heart will struggle to believe that X or Y is possible and will question you much more.
"...O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you?
How long shall I bear with you?..." - Matthew 17:17
But the little child will readily obey and believe in you without questioning.
"Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven." - Matthew 18:4
Seek that pure heart of a little child.
"does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil..." - 1 Corinthians 13:5
"...Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become
as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven." - Matthew 18:3
"And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure." - 1 John 3:3
Blessings in Jesus' name!
|
|
|
Post by joseph on May 29, 2019 17:19:23 GMT -5
James 2:8 If you truly attain the goal of Kingdom Torah, in conformity with the passage that says, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. James 2:9 But if you show favoritism, your actions constitute sin, since you are convicted under the Torah as transgressors.
|
|
|
Post by joseph on May 29, 2019 17:20:09 GMT -5
1 John 3:4 Everyone who keeps sinning is violating Torah — indeed, sin is violation of Torah.
Titus 2:14 He gave himself up on our behalf in order to free us from all violation of Torah and purify for himself a people who would be his own, eager to do good. Titus 3:9 But avoid stupid controversies, genealogies, quarrels and fights about the Torah; because they are worthless and futile.
|
|
|
Post by joseph on May 29, 2019 17:22:59 GMT -5
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. For the Day will not come until after the Apostasy has come and the man who separates himself from Torah has been revealed, the one destined for doom. 2 Thessalonians 2:7 For already this separating from Torah is at work secretly, but it will be secretly only until he who is restraining is out of the way. 2 Thessalonians 2:8 Then the one who embodies separation from Torah will be revealed, the one whom the Lord Yeshua will slay with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the glory of his coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:9 When this man who avoids Torah comes, the Adversary will give him the power to work all kinds of false miracles, signs and wonders.
|
|
|
Post by 2fw8212a on May 29, 2019 17:27:13 GMT -5
This quoted post (and ideas included in it) is very inaccurate and incorrect. What you are trying to pass is what is inaccurate.
You want to pass the impression that we have to do nothing on Sabbath, observe seasons, circumcise all born men, do not eat pork and these kind of things...
Or else we are damned.
This teaching is not true and we are NOT to walk as a Jew under the law.
In other words, you want to pass the impression that:
"...Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved." - Acts 15:1
But the Spirit is clear:
"For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us,
to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things:
that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality.
If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well..." - Acts 15:28-29
Christians are not required to live as a Jew under the law. Christians are to live by faith.
"Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them." - Galatians 3:12
"Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God.
Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves." - Romans 14:22
"...food does not commend us to God;
for neither if we eat are we the better, nor if we do not eat are we the worse." - 1 Corinthians 8:8
"...the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith..." - 1 Timothy 1:5
Blessings!
|
|
|
Post by joseph on May 30, 2019 14:13:11 GMT -5
This quoted post (and ideas included in it) is very inaccurate and incorrect. What you are trying to pass is what is inaccurate. You want to pass the impression that we have to do nothing on Sabbath, observe seasons, circumcise all born men, do not eat pork and these kind of things... Or else we are damned. This teaching is not true and we are NOT to walk as a Jew under the law. In other words, you want to pass the impression that: "...Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved." - Acts 15:1 .....This quoted post is false, and is bearing false witness, and is not based on facts nor on any truth. I do not know the condition nor the religion nor the bias nor the teachers(whoever they are) of the poster, nor their reasons for what they post, but some if not much of it(as noted here and earlier) is wrong.
|
|
|
Post by John on May 30, 2019 14:19:17 GMT -5
This is getting too personal. If you disagree on something, explain why.
|
|
|
Post by John on May 30, 2019 14:29:26 GMT -5
What you are trying to pass is what is inaccurate. You want to pass the impression that we have to do nothing on Sabbath, observe seasons, circumcise all born men, do not eat pork and these kind of things... Or else we are damned. This teaching is not true and we are NOT to walk as a Jew under the law. In other words, you want to pass the impression that: "...Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved." - Acts 15:1 ..... This quoted post is false, and is bearing false witness, and is not based on facts nor on any truth. I do not know the condition nor the religion nor the bias nor the teachers(whoever they are) of the poster, nor their reasons for what they post, but some if not much of it(as noted here and earlier) is wrong. By bearing a false witness, do you mean he is wrong about your beliefs? If so, rather than get mad, give us your side, what you really believe. That is the best way to clear things up.
|
|
|
Post by joseph on May 30, 2019 15:03:12 GMT -5
(1)"What you are trying to pass is what is inaccurate. (2)"You want to pass the impression that we have to do nothing on Sabbath, observe seasons, circumcise all born men, do not eat pork and these kind of things... Or else we are damned. (3)"This teaching is not true and we are NOT to walk as a Jew under the law. (4)"In other words, you want to pass the impression that: "...Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved." - Acts 15:1
Line (1). False. Nothing shown so far (nor as far as I know or anyone knows) is inaccurate. Line (2). False. No evidence, no posts, no statements to back up the false witness. Line (3). Straw man ? (I'm not sure). No basis... Line (4). False with no credibility at all.
|
|
|
Post by John on May 30, 2019 15:22:44 GMT -5
(1)"What you are trying to pass is what is inaccurate. (2)"You want to pass the impression that we have to do nothing on Sabbath, observe seasons, circumcise all born men, do not eat pork and these kind of things... Or else we are damned. (3)"This teaching is not true and we are NOT to walk as a Jew under the law. (4)"In other words, you want to pass the impression that: "...Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved." - Acts 15:1 Line (1). False. Nothing shown so far (nor as far as I know or anyone knows) is inaccurate. Line (2). False. No evidence, no posts, no statements to back up the false witness. Line (3). Straw man ? (I'm not sure). No basis... Line (4). False with no credibility at all. Thanks Joseph. The first one is just an opinion he has that what you said is inaccurate. That is not a false witness, but clearly he has taken you completely wrong about what you believe. Thanks for clearing this up. So 2fw8212a, Joseph does not believe the things you have said he does. Do you accept that?
Misunderstandings over what someone believes can happen, and that doesn't automatically mean the other person is intentionally bearing a false witness. That is why I asked you to explain what you feel was misrepresented. Thanks again for doing that.
|
|
|
Post by 2fw8212a on May 30, 2019 17:21:15 GMT -5
(1)"What you are trying to pass is what is inaccurate. (2)"You want to pass the impression that we have to do nothing on Sabbath, observe seasons, circumcise all born men, do not eat pork and these kind of things... Or else we are damned. (3)"This teaching is not true and we are NOT to walk as a Jew under the law. (4)"In other words, you want to pass the impression that: "...Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved." - Acts 15:1 Line (1). False. Nothing shown so far (nor as far as I know or anyone knows) is inaccurate. Line (2). False. No evidence, no posts, no statements to back up the false witness. Line (3). Straw man ? (I'm not sure). No basis... Line (4). False with no credibility at all. Thanks Joseph. The first one is just an opinion he has that what you said is inaccurate.
That is not a false witness, but clearly he has taken you completely wrong about what you believe.
Thanks for clearing this up. So 2fw8212a, Joseph does not believe the things you have said he does. Do you accept that? I was not intentionally bearing false witness.
We have spiritual adversaries and I know people can get that interpretation I was warning about.
Even if joseph did not mean what I was warning about in my posts, his posts could pass that interpretation to people.
And I was warning, just that. No harm intended.
Blessings!
|
|