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Post by 2fw8212a on Jun 12, 2019 9:54:08 GMT -5
If you cling to the idea that the OT Law was impossible for humans (whether by faith or not), then the Christian standard (by faith or not) is logically presumed to be impossible as well. People in the OT could not live at the standard of the New Testament.
The Holy Spirit was not yet given at that time, they could not walk at the level we can today (completely free from sin).
The Holy Spirit was given only after Jesus was glorified.
The standard expected from people in the OT was not the same of today's, obviously.
Blessings!
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Jun 12, 2019 11:43:43 GMT -5
If you cling to the idea that the OT Law was impossible for humans (whether by faith or not), then the Christian standard (by faith or not) is logically presumed to be impossible as well. People in the OT could not live at the standard of the New Testament.
The Holy Spirit was not yet given at that time, they could not walk at the level we can today (completely free from sin).
The Holy Spirit was given only after Jesus was glorified.
The standard expected from people in the OT was not the same of today's, obviously.
Blessings!Some people in the OT did in fact have the Holy Spirit. Peter tells us the Holy Spirit moved on the old prophets to write Scripture. Samuel and his prophets of Ramah prophesied by the Holy Spirit. David writes in Psalm 51 for God to not remove the Holy Spirit from him. We see the Holy Spirit appearing as a cloud in the temple dedication in 7 Chronicles. The Holy Spirit moved on people selectively and often temporarily in the OT, but He was there. In the NT He is freely given to all believers for the purpose of doing greater works. The standard of holy living was the same, and the Spirit helped prophets live holy lives.
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Post by frienduff on Jun 12, 2019 13:07:11 GMT -5
Things that are impossible for man are not impossible with God. Abraham's faith is the reason he obeyed the Lord....because faith is of God (ie, His Spirit), not of our own. The alternative that Jesus gave us is to be led by the Spirit, no longer the letter of the Law, and the Spirit will not lead us to contravene God's laws. At the same time it's clear in scripture that biblical saints were not literally perfect people, and the Lord doesn't takes pains to hide their slip-ups, so that we would be warned by them, and also encouraged that if we err there is hope for restoration. It's not to teach that it doesn't matter if we sin...they suffered consequences of their sin. There are some Old Testament saints that I can't recall ever having done anything wrong. Samuel the prophet is one. What about Ruth and Esther? There certainly are examples of men of God messing up and suffering the consequences as you said, but I don't think there are examples of everyone messing up. But their is this . Their is no man who has not sinned . Their is none who is righteous . Now I do agree that folks take things like this to justify their own failures . WHICH is a HECK of a no no . We never want to JUSTIFY error or WHY we err either . IF we err, we simply NEED TO REPENT . But folks justify the imperfectness of man to reason out a false hope of walking in darkness and yet feeling saved . Major NO NO . all have fallen short , IS TRUE . WELL , ALL CEPT JESUS of course . But you right butero . WHY did GOD change the convenant . FOR FINDING FAULT WITH THEM . Behold the days come where I will write my laws on their hearts and minds . A whole new walk that occurs , BY THE SPIRIT . ONLY we better heed and obey THE SPIRIT and learn sound doctrine well . For many teach total darkness and they teach it as though its light . Let the lambs of narrow way be here for one another and exalt GOD above all , in all we do or say . HANDS UP and praise the LORD .
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Post by 2fw8212a on Jun 12, 2019 13:08:41 GMT -5
Some people in the OT did in fact have the Holy Spirit. Peter tells us the Holy Spirit moved on the old prophets to write Scripture. Samuel and his prophets of Ramah prophesied by the Holy Spirit. David writes in Psalm 51 for God to not remove the Holy Spirit from him. We see the Holy Spirit appearing as a cloud in the temple dedication in 7 Chronicles. The Holy Spirit moved on people selectively and often temporarily in the OT, but He was there. In the NT He is freely given to all believers for the purpose of doing greater works. The standard of holy living was the same, and the Spirit helped prophets live holy lives. I mean in the sense of being born of the Spirit. No one in the OT could walk free from sin as we can today.
Otherwise there was no reason for Christ being manifested to die for us, take away our sins, and make us free.
"For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ." - John 1:17
"I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain." - Galatians 2:21
As Peter and Paul testified, they were all slaves to sin before believing the gospel and receiving the promise of the Father: The Holy Spirit.
"for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now." - Acts 1:5
"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is
mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit..." - Matthew 3:11
Blessings!
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Jun 12, 2019 13:50:24 GMT -5
Some people in the OT did in fact have the Holy Spirit. Peter tells us the Holy Spirit moved on the old prophets to write Scripture. Samuel and his prophets of Ramah prophesied by the Holy Spirit. David writes in Psalm 51 for God to not remove the Holy Spirit from him. We see the Holy Spirit appearing as a cloud in the temple dedication in 7 Chronicles. The Holy Spirit moved on people selectively and often temporarily in the OT, but He was there. In the NT He is freely given to all believers for the purpose of doing greater works. The standard of holy living was the same, and the Spirit helped prophets live holy lives. I mean in the sense of being born of the Spirit. No one in the OT could walk free from sin as we can today.
Otherwise there was no reason for Christ being manifested to die for us, take away our sins, and make us free.
"For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ." - John 1:17
"I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain." - Galatians 2:21
As Peter and Paul testified, they were all slaves to sin before believing the gospel and receiving the promise of the Father: The Holy Spirit.
"for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now." - Acts 1:5
"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is
mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit..." - Matthew 3:11
Blessings!They were slaves in the old system, but they were never told to go ahead and sin because holiness was too hard. They were actually expected to do the right thing.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Jun 12, 2019 15:17:15 GMT -5
They were slaves in the old system, but they were never told to go ahead and sin because holiness was too hard. They were actually expected to do the right thing. Holiness is hard when you are in the flesh. If you walk in the Spirit, holiness is not only easy, it is natural.
"I say then:
Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh." - Galatians 5:16
They could not simply walk in the Spirit in the OT.
"...for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified." - John 7:39
Then what was expected from them was what they could do.
"The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit,
A broken and a contrite heart — These, O God, You will not despise." - Psalm 51:17
"I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other;
for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted." - Luke 18:14
Those in the Old Covenant would have to wait for Jesus.
"...if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious,
so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the
glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?" - 2 Corinthians 3:7-8
"For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory." - 2 Corinthians 3:9
Encouraging sin was not an option in the Old Testament, and doing so in the New Testament is an even greater offense.
"Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose,
will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot,
counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing,
and insulted the Spirit of grace?" - Hebrews 10:29
"Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the
land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!" - Matthew 10:15
Blessings!
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Post by joseph on Jun 12, 2019 15:21:20 GMT -5
I mean in the sense of being born of the Spirit. No one in the OT could walk free from sin as we can today.
Otherwise there was no reason for Christ being manifested to die for us, take away our sins, and make us free.
As Peter and Paul testified, they were all slaves to sin before believing the gospel and receiving the promise of the Father: The Holy Spirit.
They were slaves in the old system, but they were never told to go ahead and sin because holiness was too hard. They were actually expected to do the right thing. YES ! HALLELUYAH ! And they (the ones faithful, the Ekklesia in the OT) perhaps did better than most people today, even people today "in churches" ! People today are still "slaves of sin" for the most part, even in churches. Oh, a few walk free of the power of sin, but most do not. - they sin continuously instead, encouraged by leaders who say it is okay to do so, and who live sinful lives promoting sin themselves.
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Post by joseph on Jun 12, 2019 15:44:11 GMT -5
There are some Old Testament saints that I can't recall ever having done anything wrong. Samuel the prophet is one. What about Ruth and Esther? There certainly are examples of men of God messing up and suffering the consequences as you said, but I don't think there are examples of everyone messing up. I think there were even times when the whole nation was doing what was right, as one heart (echad = one = like the Father and the Son are echad), with some reference(s) in Psalms to that (echad, being one) also. The whole nation ! Now, today, just try to FIND ONE SMALL CONGREGATION DOING WHAT IS RIGHT ! Oh, I expect there's a few around (I won't tell what country may have a million small groups (house groups) of Ekklesia ) (it's not hard to guess).... But to the point - there's so few groups of Ekklesia living right, doing what is right, simply even "following Jesus" (the secret of the power of the Anabaptists centuries ago; as well as throughout the NT) Contrarywise ?, As written, in Scripture, there are many groups, churches, and most countries "all" messing up (not even thinking of turning to God ) ....
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2019 15:50:19 GMT -5
Things that are impossible for man are not impossible with God. Abraham's faith is the reason he obeyed the Lord....because faith is of God (ie, His Spirit), not of our own. The alternative that Jesus gave us is to be led by the Spirit, no longer the letter of the Law, and the Spirit will not lead us to contravene God's laws. At the same time it's clear in scripture that biblical saints were not literally perfect people, and the Lord doesn't takes pains to hide their slip-ups, so that we would be warned by them, and also encouraged that if we err there is hope for restoration. It's not to teach that it doesn't matter if we sin...they suffered consequences of their sin. There are some Old Testament saints that I can't recall ever having done anything wrong. Samuel the prophet is one. What about Ruth and Esther? There certainly are examples of men of God messing up and suffering the consequences as you said, but I don't think there are examples of everyone messing up. Yes...God didn't record everyone's mistakes/weakness/sins.....just enough in His wisdom that we can glean an understanding that these saints were ordinary people like us, so we can be encouraged that holiness and pleasing God is not out of our reach. Abraham, Lot, Noah, Jacob, David, Elijah, Peter, etc.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2019 16:03:51 GMT -5
There are some Old Testament saints that I can't recall ever having done anything wrong. Samuel the prophet is one. What about Ruth and Esther? There certainly are examples of men of God messing up and suffering the consequences as you said, but I don't think there are examples of everyone messing up. But their is this . Their is no man who has not sinned . Their is none who is righteous . Now I do agree that folks take things like this to justify their own failures . WHICH is a HECK of a no no . We never want to JUSTIFY error or WHY we err either . IF we err, we simply NEED TO REPENT . But folks justify the imperfectness of man to reason out a false hope of walking in darkness and yet feeling saved . Major NO NO . all have fallen short , IS TRUE . WELL , ALL CEPT JESUS of course . But you right butero . WHY did GOD change the convenant . FOR FINDING FAULT WITH THEM . Behold the days come where I will write my laws on their hearts and minds . A whole new walk that occurs , BY THE SPIRIT . ONLY we better heed and obey THE SPIRIT and learn sound doctrine well . For many teach total darkness and they teach it as though its light . Let the lambs of narrow way be here for one another and exalt GOD above all , in all we do or say . HANDS UP and praise the LORD .
Yes...God did not record those things in the bible so that people can justify their sins. The fact that people are going to twist scripture and justify their sins does not mean we should hold back on certain truths in the bible though, because justifying sin isn't the only error in Christendom that needs addressing. Another error is a mindset that bible saints were somehow more special than us, that they floated on air and went around wearing halos....leading to a false impression that holiness is not for us mere ordinary folks. They need to learn that the bible saints were ordinary folks just like us and that holiness and righteousness is therefore likewise attainable for us. It's a truth worth knowing and sharing and if anyone wants to twist that, it's on them. Act 14:15 And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein Jas 5:17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Jun 12, 2019 16:10:38 GMT -5
I don’t understand then why this continues to be a debate. People in the OT had a system they were expected to live by, and God empowered the faithful to live by that system. We Christians have a system we are expected to live by, and God empowers us to live by our system. Faithful saints in the OT could please God within their system, and we can please God within our system. The Law was not a meaningless waste of time that no one could do, but was a system that allowed for the Christian system later.
If we are all in agreement on that, then I don’t see why we’re arguing.
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Post by frienduff on Jun 12, 2019 17:03:54 GMT -5
To live is CHRIST , to die is gain . Let us follow HIM all the days of our lives and Honor God in all we do or say . Put those hands UP sister candance . Surely you can dance unto the LORD dear sister . That's right sister . OH let all rejoice in the LORD .
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Cletus
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Post by Cletus on Jun 12, 2019 22:25:24 GMT -5
I don’t understand then why this continues to be a debate. People in the OT had a system they were expected to live by, and God empowered the faithful to live by that system. We Christians have a system we are expected to live by, and God empowers us to live by our system. Faithful saints in the OT could please God within their system, and we can please God within our system. The Law was not a meaningless waste of time that no one could do, but was a system that allowed for the Christian system later. If we are all in agreement on that, then I don’t see why we’re arguing. fun with words by cletus...
you cant be faithful, if you are not FAITH-ful.
from whence cometh my help? from The LORD!
i see an aspect to both systems that are parallel. its the empowering part you spoke on.
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Post by justinadams on Jun 13, 2019 7:00:48 GMT -5
I don’t understand then why this continues to be a debate. People in the OT had a system they were expected to live by, and God empowered the faithful to live by that system. We Christians have a system we are expected to live by, and God empowers us to live by our system. Faithful saints in the OT could please God within their system, and we can please God within our system. The Law was not a meaningless waste of time that no one could do, but was a system that allowed for the Christian system later. If we are all in agreement on that, then I don’t see why we’re arguing. Yes. Yeshua gave Moses the Law. He even wrote with His own finger - just like He did on the stones when the woman was brought to him taken in adultery - the fact that He wrote TWICE was not lost on those witnessing this. They were far more conversant with the Tanach than we are. They left when challenged. Once on stones hewn by Himself, Secondly by stones hewn by Moses. The law was broken ONCE, then was upheld by Man and God Himself. Prior to this the law was verbally given. Another three-fold God thing.
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Cletus
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Post by Cletus on Jun 13, 2019 21:15:29 GMT -5
so whats up with the law being delivered on stone tablets, and mans heart being stoney but being replaced with a fleshy heart?
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