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Post by John on Jun 18, 2019 14:08:54 GMT -5
Scripture won't violate scripture, but Jesus did tell the thief they would both be in paradise that very day, the day of the crucifixion. Whether I go with what you posted, or the KJV Bible, they both say that.
"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."
Jesus did mean that day, and He and the thief went straight to paradise when they died. If Jesus said that to me, he would mean that very day, not in the bye an bye. It doesn't violate any scriptures taken in context to believe that. As a matter of fact, claiming that nobody is in paradise would be contrary to Jesus' story about the rich man and Lazarus. If you are promoting soul sleep, that can be proven wrong by Moses appearing to Jesus at the mount of transfiguration, as Moses died and God buried him. All the scriptures that speak of the dead sleeping are only speaking of the physical body, not the real person. The real person is absent from the body and present with the Lord. Even the Apostle Paul spoke about the struggle he had whether to remain or die, because in dying, he would be with the Lord. Sigh. Because of a false teaching, and a comma, Butero, that myth is still believed. I believe the comma is in the right place, and whoever is making that claim is wrong. You can't explain Moses appearing to Jesus or the rich man and Lazarus if they aren't alive somewhere while their body sleeps in the ground. I mentioned Paul, but look at what he says in Philippians 1:21-26
For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you. And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith That your rejoicing may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming to you again.
Paul is not speaking of being with Christ in the bye and bye, but immediately upon his death. He is speaking of departing from his body, no soul sleep.
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Heaven
Jun 18, 2019 14:18:23 GMT -5
Post by joseph on Jun 18, 2019 14:18:23 GMT -5
Sigh. Because of a false teaching, and a comma, Butero, that myth is still believed. I believe the comma is in the right place, and whoever is making that claim is wrong. You can't explain Moses appearing to Jesus or the rich man and Lazarus if they aren't alive somewhere while their body sleeps in the ground. I mentioned Paul, but look at what he says in Philippians 1:21-26
For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you. And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith That your rejoicing may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming to you again.
Paul is not speaking of being with Christ in the bye and bye, but immediately upon his death. He is speaking of departing from his body, no soul sleep. No. And no need to go far afield in other areas, not yet anyway, not here. It is easily possible to prove the myth wrong, without trouble, without violating any Scripture as the myth does. There are many ways and many sites showing this, from many perspectives and viewpoints, revealing simply Biblical truth vs tradition in error. Luke 23:39-43 (< theory of> Paradise today) Luke 23:42 and 43 is often used to teach that the penitent malefactor who believed in Jesus immediately went to “heaven” when he died (even though the verse in question reads “paradise”). However, the phrase in verse 43, “I tell you the truth today,” was a common Hebrew idiom used to emphasize the solemnity and importance of an occasion or moment (compare Deut. 4:26, 39, 40; 5:1; 6:6; 7:11, Josh. 23:14). Recognizing this idiom and properly punctuating the verse with the comma after the word “today,” we see that Jesus’ meaning is clearly future, to be fulfilled when he comes again and establishes his kingdom on earth. Thus the verse should read as follows: “Jesus answered him, ‘I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise.’” Also, the word “paradise” is preceded by the article “the” and therefore refers biblically to the place of beauty on earth described in Genesis 2, lost in Genesis 3, that will be restored by the Lord Jesus Christ when he returns to earth (see Rev. 22:1-3). (For more information on “paradise,” see the note on Ecclesiastes 2:5, page 908; and Appendix 173 in The Companion Bible, edited by E.W. Bullinger.) Not only did the penitent malefactor not go to “paradise” that day, neither did Jesus Christ. As stated earlier, he died and spent the next three days and three nights in the grave. www.truthortradition.com/articles/do-christians-go-to-heaven-if-they-die
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Heaven
Jun 18, 2019 14:24:14 GMT -5
Post by John on Jun 18, 2019 14:24:14 GMT -5
I believe the comma is in the right place, and whoever is making that claim is wrong. You can't explain Moses appearing to Jesus or the rich man and Lazarus if they aren't alive somewhere while their body sleeps in the ground. I mentioned Paul, but look at what he says in Philippians 1:21-26
For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you. And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith That your rejoicing may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming to you again.
Paul is not speaking of being with Christ in the bye and bye, but immediately upon his death. He is speaking of departing from his body, no soul sleep. No. And no need to go far afield in other areas, not yet anyway, not here. It is easily possible to prove the myth wrong, without trouble, without violating any Scripture as the myth does. There are many ways and many sites showing this, from many perspectives and viewpoints, revealing simply Biblical truth vs tradition in error. Luke 23:39-43 (< theory of> Paradise today) Luke 23:42 and 43 is often used to teach that the penitent malefactor who believed in Jesus immediately went to “heaven” when he died (even though the verse in question reads “paradise”). However, the phrase in verse 43, “I tell you the truth today,” was a common Hebrew idiom used to emphasize the solemnity and importance of an occasion or moment (compare Deut. 4:26, 39, 40; 5:1; 6:6; 7:11, Josh. 23:14). Recognizing this idiom and properly punctuating the verse with the comma after the word “today,” we see that Jesus’ meaning is clearly future, to be fulfilled when he comes again and establishes his kingdom on earth. Thus the verse should read as follows: “Jesus answered him, ‘I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise.’” Also, the word “paradise” is preceded by the article “the” and therefore refers biblically to the place of beauty on earth described in Genesis 2, lost in Genesis 3, that will be restored by the Lord Jesus Christ when he returns to earth (see Rev. 22:1-3). (For more information on “paradise,” see the note on Ecclesiastes 2:5, page 908; and Appendix 173 in The Companion Bible, edited by E.W. Bullinger.) Not only did the penitent malefactor not go to “paradise” that day, neither did Jesus Christ. As stated earlier, he died and spent the next three days and three nights in the grave. www.truthortradition.com/articles/do-christians-go-to-heaven-if-they-die I understand that there are people making this claim, and giving an explanation for why they believe what they do, but I disagree. I think the person saying this is the one who is wrong. It is no different than the people who defend OSAS creating some way of interpreting scripture that backs up their view. It is still just their opinion based on trying to make the scriptures fit their doctrine.
I am not sure at this point how far you are taking this. If you are believing in soul sleep, I have already given more than enough scripture to prove that is false. We don't have an official position on that subject here like they do at WCF, so it is not like anyone is going to get in trouble or banned for holding to soul sleep, but I don't believe in it and don't believe it is scriptural.
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Heaven
Jun 18, 2019 15:24:44 GMT -5
Post by joseph on Jun 18, 2019 15:24:44 GMT -5
No. And no need to go far afield in other areas, not yet anyway, not here. It is easily possible to prove the myth wrong, without trouble, without violating any Scripture as the myth does. There are many ways and many sites showing this, from many perspectives and viewpoints, revealing simply Biblical truth vs tradition in error. Luke 23:39-43 (< theory of> Paradise today) Luke 23:42 and 43 is often used to teach that the penitent malefactor who believed in Jesus immediately went to “heaven” when he died (even though the verse in question reads “paradise”). However, the phrase in verse 43, “I tell you the truth today,” was a common Hebrew idiom used to emphasize the solemnity and importance of an occasion or moment (compare Deut. 4:26, 39, 40; 5:1; 6:6; 7:11, Josh. 23:14). Recognizing this idiom and properly punctuating the verse with the comma after the word “today,” we see that Jesus’ meaning is clearly future, to be fulfilled when he comes again and establishes his kingdom on earth. Thus the verse should read as follows: “Jesus answered him, ‘I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise.’” Also, the word “paradise” is preceded by the article “the” and therefore refers biblically to the place of beauty on earth described in Genesis 2, lost in Genesis 3, that will be restored by the Lord Jesus Christ when he returns to earth (see Rev. 22:1-3). (For more information on “paradise,” see the note on Ecclesiastes 2:5, page 908; and Appendix 173 in The Companion Bible, edited by E.W. Bullinger.) Not only did the penitent malefactor not go to “paradise” that day, neither did Jesus Christ. As stated earlier, he died and spent the next three days and three nights in the grave. www.truthortradition.com/articles/do-christians-go-to-heaven-if-they-die I understand that there are people making this claim, and giving an explanation for why they believe what they do, but I disagree. I think the person saying this is the one who is wrong. It is no different than the people who defend OSAS creating some way of interpreting scripture that backs up their view. It is still just their opinion based on trying to make the scriptures fit their doctrine.
I am not sure at this point how far you are taking this. If you are believing in soul sleep, I have already given more than enough scripture to prove that is false. We don't have an official position on that subject here like they do at WCF, so it is not like anyone is going to get in trouble or banned for holding to soul sleep, but I don't believe in it and don't believe it is scriptural.There's no need to discuss soul sleep at all. I've seen in the past that people who bring it up, for or against, seem to be defending or trying to defend an idea/doctrine/teaching and not honoring Scripture . The plain Scripture , KJV, is enough, and taken as a whole, shows clearly that Jesus was not in paradise for at least 3 days and 3 nights, so that should be the end of the matter concerning "today" . It is so simple, actually, it seems absurd to argue about: If I say to you Butero: today I tell you you will be with me in paradise. What do you think I mean ?
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Post by frienduff on Jun 18, 2019 15:28:38 GMT -5
Sigh. Because of a false teaching, and a comma, Butero, that myth is still believed. I believe the comma is in the right place, and whoever is making that claim is wrong. You can't explain Moses appearing to Jesus or the rich man and Lazarus if they aren't alive somewhere while their body sleeps in the ground. I mentioned Paul, but look at what he says in Philippians 1:21-26
For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you. And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith That your rejoicing may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming to you again.
Paul is not speaking of being with Christ in the bye and bye, but immediately upon his death. He is speaking of departing from his body, no soul sleep. Butero I get tickled when I see you say not in the by and by . Do we know what by and by means . Immediately . just as does anon and straightway too . The thing is , most folks or I should say ALL folks cannot relate to GODS TIME . When that thief who died closed his lids , The next thing he saw was paradise . We wont fully grasp all things . But to be absent from the body IS INDEED to be present with the LORD . If any of us thinks we can grasp Gods time , Then answer this , GOD has always been . Their was no time before GOD and yet we as people see time as having a beginning . WHEN IN fact GODS time has no beginning , IT JUST always was and is . Don't run like our time . That is about as well as I can explain what I know in part .
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Heaven
Jun 18, 2019 15:40:30 GMT -5
Dezi likes this
Post by frienduff on Jun 18, 2019 15:40:30 GMT -5
I understand that there are people making this claim, and giving an explanation for why they believe what they do, but I disagree. I think the person saying this is the one who is wrong. It is no different than the people who defend OSAS creating some way of interpreting scripture that backs up their view. It is still just their opinion based on trying to make the scriptures fit their doctrine.
I am not sure at this point how far you are taking this. If you are believing in soul sleep, I have already given more than enough scripture to prove that is false. We don't have an official position on that subject here like they do at WCF, so it is not like anyone is going to get in trouble or banned for holding to soul sleep, but I don't believe in it and don't believe it is scriptural. There's no need to discuss soul sleep at all. I've seen in the past that people who bring it up, for or against, seem to be defending or trying to defend an idea/doctrine/teaching and not honoring Scripture . The plain Scripture , KJV, is enough, and taken as a whole, shows clearly that Jesus was not in paradise for at least 3 days and 3 nights, so that should be the end of the matter concerning "today" . It is so simple, actually, it seems absurd to argue about: If I say to you Butero: today I tell you you will be with me in paradise. What do you think I mean ? Correct , JESUS had not yet died and risen . But as I said we cannot understand GODS TIME . For Even MOSES and ELIJAH were seen on the mount And yet JESUS was and is the FIRST TO ASCEND TO HEAVEN . YET they were awake on that mountain . They saw MOSES and ELIJAH . SO for sure and for certain there is no need to argue over what NONE of us can fully grasp and understand . All we need to know is to be absent from the body IS to be present with the LORD . However that is , BEATS ME , but I KNOW its true . None of us can fully grasp all things . This is truly nothing to strive over . What we need to be doing , is exhorting one another and reminding one another LET NONE be taken in the error of the wicked and this false unity all inclusive lie . Cause I tell us all , its all over these groups , every faith , every denomination , even the messianic groups , its just all over the place . Its been snuck in well and taught to each group in a way that each group will reiceve it . To a unbelieving jew its preached one way , to a muslim one way to a buddist another way , to liberal churches , to conservative churches . ITS ALL OVER the place . And thus we must dig only deeper into the scriptures and keep exhorting lest any does become hardend through the deceitfulness of sin . We got folks pumping this stuff out and yet they got no idea What Spirit it is of . And now they are merging more and more to be as one for common unity , peace . Its all over religious tolerance its even in the heartbeat group. YES , YES IT IS . THEY GONNA HAVE US united with ROME and others . NOT ME , I had rather be dead than to align myself with any false group no matter how righteous the cause might seem . GOD said BE YE NOT UNEQUALLY YOKED . And its how by grace I shall remain , Warning , encouraging , exhorting all , but NEVER ONCE conforming to their wicked ways . Joseph You would be amazed at how many groups this has infected . its massive in the jewish groups too . And most christains are so dumb downed they think if a jew says HE believes in CHRIST , then HE MUST BE SOME GREAT TEACHER , cause he is both a jew and a believer . BUT ITS ALL A SET UP . the messianic jews , NOT ALL , but like us have many false leaders and they got one goal . WE BETTER WATCH OUT . FOLLOW ONLY THE LAMB and no man . FOLLOW ONLY THE LAMB and no man . FOLLOW ONLY the LAMB and no man .
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Post by John on Jun 18, 2019 15:41:53 GMT -5
I understand that there are people making this claim, and giving an explanation for why they believe what they do, but I disagree. I think the person saying this is the one who is wrong. It is no different than the people who defend OSAS creating some way of interpreting scripture that backs up their view. It is still just their opinion based on trying to make the scriptures fit their doctrine.
I am not sure at this point how far you are taking this. If you are believing in soul sleep, I have already given more than enough scripture to prove that is false. We don't have an official position on that subject here like they do at WCF, so it is not like anyone is going to get in trouble or banned for holding to soul sleep, but I don't believe in it and don't believe it is scriptural. There's no need to discuss soul sleep at all. I've seen in the past that people who bring it up, for or against, seem to be defending or trying to defend an idea/doctrine/teaching and not honoring Scripture . The plain Scripture , KJV, is enough, and taken as a whole, shows clearly that Jesus was not in paradise for at least 3 days and 3 nights, so that should be the end of the matter concerning "today" . It is so simple, actually, it seems absurd to argue about: If I say to you Butero: today I tell you you will be with me in paradise. What do you think I mean ? That is not what Jesus said. I am going to put your comment first, and then what Jesus said after it so everyone can see the difference.
Joseph said, "today I tell you you will be with me in paradise." Jesus said, "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."
I didn't place any comma in that sentence, as it doesn't have one in the Bible in that portion of the verse. If I look at the way you worded it, I have no idea when I will be there. If I look at it the way Jesus said it, I will be with him that very day in paradise.
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Post by frienduff on Jun 18, 2019 15:43:46 GMT -5
Soon we will as one be saying , Come the hour is at hand , our betrayer comes . ITS ALREADY in the WORLD . ITS ALREADY HERE . And our betrayal comes soon .
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Post by John on Jun 18, 2019 15:45:19 GMT -5
I believe the comma is in the right place, and whoever is making that claim is wrong. You can't explain Moses appearing to Jesus or the rich man and Lazarus if they aren't alive somewhere while their body sleeps in the ground. I mentioned Paul, but look at what he says in Philippians 1:21-26
For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you. And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith That your rejoicing may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming to you again.
Paul is not speaking of being with Christ in the bye and bye, but immediately upon his death. He is speaking of departing from his body, no soul sleep. Butero I get tickled when I see you say not in the by and by . Do we know what by and by means . Immediately . just as does anon and straightway too . The thing is , most folks or I should say ALL folks cannot relate to GODS TIME . When that thief who died closed his lids , The next thing he saw was paradise . We wont fully grasp all things . But to be absent from the body IS INDEED to be present with the LORD . If any of us thinks we can grasp Gods time , Then answer this , GOD has always been . Their was no time before GOD and yet we as people see time as having a beginning . WHEN IN fact GODS time has no beginning , IT JUST always was and is . Don't run like our time . That is about as well as I can explain what I know in part .
I know the old gospel song spells it "Bye and Bye." That may not be proper spelling, but I am going to blame that on my days as a gospel D.J.
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Heaven
Jun 18, 2019 15:50:00 GMT -5
Post by John on Jun 18, 2019 15:50:00 GMT -5
There's no need to discuss soul sleep at all. I've seen in the past that people who bring it up, for or against, seem to be defending or trying to defend an idea/doctrine/teaching and not honoring Scripture . The plain Scripture , KJV, is enough, and taken as a whole, shows clearly that Jesus was not in paradise for at least 3 days and 3 nights, so that should be the end of the matter concerning "today" . It is so simple, actually, it seems absurd to argue about: If I say to you Butero: today I tell you you will be with me in paradise. What do you think I mean ? Correct , JESUS had not yet died and risen . But as I said we cannot understand GODS TIME . For Even MOSES and ELIJAH were seen on the mount And yet JESUS was and is the FIRST TO ASCEND TO HEAVEN . YET they were awake on that mountain . They saw MOSES and ELIJAH . SO for sure and for certain there is no need to argue over what NONE of us can fully grasp and understand . All we need to know is to be absent from the body IS to be present with the LORD . However that is , BEATS ME , but I KNOW its true . None of us can fully grasp all things . This is truly nothing to strive over . What we need to be doing , is exhorting one another and reminding one another LET NONE be taken in the error of the wicked and this false unity all inclusive lie . Cause I tell us all , its all over these groups , every faith , every denomination , even the messianic groups , its just all over the place . Its been snuck in well and taught to each group in a way that each group will reiceve it . To a unbelieving jew its preached one way , to a muslim one way to a buddist another way , to liberal churches , to conservative churches . ITS ALL OVER the place . And thus we must dig only deeper into the scriptures and keep exhorting lest any does become hardend through the deceitfulness of sin . We got folks pumping this stuff out and yet they got no idea What Spirit it is of . And now they are merging more and more to be as one for common unity , peace . Its all over religious tolerance its even in the heartbeat group. YES , YES IT IS . THEY GONNA HAVE US united with ROME and others . NOT ME , I had rather be dead than to align myself with any false group no matter how righteous the cause might seem . GOD said BE YE NOT UNEQUALLY YOKED . And its how by grace I shall remain , Warning , encouraging , exhorting all , but NEVER ONCE conforming to their wicked ways . Joseph You would be amazed at how many groups this has infected . its massive in the jewish groups too . And most christains are so dumb downed they think if a jew says HE believes in CHRIST , then HE MUST BE SOME GREAT TEACHER , cause he is both a jew and a believer . BUT ITS ALL A SET UP . the messianic jews , NOT ALL , but like us have many false leaders and they got one goal . WE BETTER WATCH OUT . FOLLOW ONLY THE LAMB and no man . FOLLOW ONLY THE LAMB and no man . FOLLOW ONLY the LAMB and no man .
This is not a salvation issue, but I do think there is adequate enough scripture to see that paradise is real and that departed saints have been going there prior to Calvary, and there is adequate scripture that shows that when we die, our spirit leaves our body and goes to be with the Lord or to hell, depending on our standing with God. I think it matters, but not to the point of attacking anyone as teaching heresy or anything like that. It is just something to discuss in the hope we can come to agreement. If not, we will just have to agree to disagree till it is made plain.
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Heaven
Jun 18, 2019 15:56:26 GMT -5
Post by joseph on Jun 18, 2019 15:56:26 GMT -5
There's no need to discuss soul sleep at all. I've seen in the past that people who bring it up, for or against, seem to be defending or trying to defend an idea/doctrine/teaching and not honoring Scripture . The plain Scripture , KJV, is enough, and taken as a whole, shows clearly that Jesus was not in paradise for at least 3 days and 3 nights, so that should be the end of the matter concerning "today" . It is so simple, actually, it seems absurd to argue about: If I say to you Butero: today I tell you you will be with me in paradise. What do you think I mean ? That is not what Jesus said. I am going to put your comment first, and then what Jesus said after it so everyone can see the difference.
Joseph said, "today I tell you you will be with me in paradise." Jesus said, "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."
I didn't place any comma in that sentence, as it doesn't have one in the Bible in that portion of the verse. If I look at the way you worded it, I have no idea when I will be there. If I look at it the way Jesus said it, I will be with him that very day in paradise. oops..... I know it was not on purpose, but even using KJV, you misquoted Jesus.
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Heaven
Jun 18, 2019 16:03:26 GMT -5
John likes this
Post by frienduff on Jun 18, 2019 16:03:26 GMT -5
Correct , JESUS had not yet died and risen . But as I said we cannot understand GODS TIME . For Even MOSES and ELIJAH were seen on the mount And yet JESUS was and is the FIRST TO ASCEND TO HEAVEN . YET they were awake on that mountain . They saw MOSES and ELIJAH . SO for sure and for certain there is no need to argue over what NONE of us can fully grasp and understand . All we need to know is to be absent from the body IS to be present with the LORD . However that is , BEATS ME , but I KNOW its true . None of us can fully grasp all things . This is truly nothing to strive over . What we need to be doing , is exhorting one another and reminding one another LET NONE be taken in the error of the wicked and this false unity all inclusive lie . Cause I tell us all , its all over these groups , every faith , every denomination , even the messianic groups , its just all over the place . Its been snuck in well and taught to each group in a way that each group will reiceve it . To a unbelieving jew its preached one way , to a muslim one way to a buddist another way , to liberal churches , to conservative churches . ITS ALL OVER the place . And thus we must dig only deeper into the scriptures and keep exhorting lest any does become hardend through the deceitfulness of sin . We got folks pumping this stuff out and yet they got no idea What Spirit it is of . And now they are merging more and more to be as one for common unity , peace . Its all over religious tolerance its even in the heartbeat group. YES , YES IT IS . THEY GONNA HAVE US united with ROME and others . NOT ME , I had rather be dead than to align myself with any false group no matter how righteous the cause might seem . GOD said BE YE NOT UNEQUALLY YOKED . And its how by grace I shall remain , Warning , encouraging , exhorting all , but NEVER ONCE conforming to their wicked ways . Joseph You would be amazed at how many groups this has infected . its massive in the jewish groups too . And most christains are so dumb downed they think if a jew says HE believes in CHRIST , then HE MUST BE SOME GREAT TEACHER , cause he is both a jew and a believer . BUT ITS ALL A SET UP . the messianic jews , NOT ALL , but like us have many false leaders and they got one goal . WE BETTER WATCH OUT . FOLLOW ONLY THE LAMB and no man . FOLLOW ONLY THE LAMB and no man . FOLLOW ONLY the LAMB and no man .
This is not a salvation issue, but I do think there is adequate enough scripture to see that paradise is real and that departed saints have been going there prior to Calvary, and there is adequate scripture that shows that when we die, our spirit leaves our body and goes to be with the Lord or to hell, depending on our standing with God. I think it matters, but not to the point of attacking anyone as teaching heresy or anything like that. It is just something to discuss in the hope we can come to agreement. If not, we will just have to agree to disagree till it is made plain. OH for sure paradise is real . This MIGHT be the case . I don't teach this , because I DONT KNOW this , but I speculate that as Samuel too was in some state of rest , yet conscious , so too were the others . I THINK the ascending to heaven itself , CAME AFTER JESUS ROSE . And scrips are quite clear that many of the dead arose form the graves , WHEN JESUS AROSE FROM THE GRAVE . ITS In Mathew. SO I THINK they were in a state of rest of some sort . But were not risen up to ASCEND TO HEAVEN , TILL AFTER JESUS was RISEN . And the reason I think this IS because of how clear the scrips are on That the saints arose AFTER JESUS had RISEN . I do believe the THEIF saw paradise that very day . That very day
But we don't fully grasp all of this . Jesus has long ago risen . So now I believe when a saint dies , He goes to be at rest in HIM , present with HIM and conscious . But I do NOT know this . thus its speculation only . I know that neither side is in any danger of hell fire . Because I don't think either side FULLY KNOWS THIS . FULLY understands it . We can make cases But in the end , its truly nothing to strive over . NOW osas , THAT is something to correct . Because them folks contradict many scriptures which show that a man can fall away . And many of them teach some very dangerous heresays and twist scrips unto their own destruction . I don't believe that everyone who believes in OSAS is going to hell . NO . But many will . Because many of them who do , have been lulled to sleep , walk in sin And holler how they cant be unsaved . I see no evidence that they are saved . NO real sense of urgency to cease sin . Now very few of them , DO have a strong urgency to go and sin no more . BUT THAT IS HIGHLY RARE in that group . HIGHLY RARE . those are the ones I don't worry about quite so much . I STILL remind , YOU better CONTINUE IN HIM and BY HIM faithful to the end . And two of them seem to receive that message . The LORD will work on those who are HIS . WE , however , must expose all false dangerous doctrine . And get folks back into BIBLES ONLY and out from heeding men . I got a call , FOLLOW ONLY JESUS and no man . FOLLOW ONLY JESUS and no man . LET us follow JESUS and no man . Test ALL . TEST ALL . AND KEEP testing . For man can slip , one who is on fire today , may be found false tomorrow . AND THAT IS A FACT .
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Post by John on Jun 18, 2019 16:38:15 GMT -5
That is not what Jesus said. I am going to put your comment first, and then what Jesus said after it so everyone can see the difference.
Joseph said, "today I tell you you will be with me in paradise." Jesus said, "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."
I didn't place any comma in that sentence, as it doesn't have one in the Bible in that portion of the verse. If I look at the way you worded it, I have no idea when I will be there. If I look at it the way Jesus said it, I will be with him that very day in paradise. oops..... I know it was not on purpose, but even using KJV, you misquoted Jesus. Luke 23:43 "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." I just looked it up again. That is the Authorized KJV Bible. The only thing I saw that was in error was that To day had a space. The Bible I was using had To as the last word on one line and day as the first word on the next. I looked it up in another KJV Bible where the two words were on the same line. That still doesn't change anything.
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Heaven
Jun 18, 2019 16:51:54 GMT -5
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John and Dezi like this
Post by solid on Jun 18, 2019 16:51:54 GMT -5
That is not what Jesus said. I am going to put your comment first, and then what Jesus said after it so everyone can see the difference.
Joseph said, "today I tell you you will be with me in paradise." Jesus said, "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."
I didn't place any comma in that sentence, as it doesn't have one in the Bible in that portion of the verse. If I look at the way you worded it, I have no idea when I will be there. If I look at it the way Jesus said it, I will be with him that very day in paradise. oops..... I know it was not on purpose, but even using KJV, you misquoted Jesus. They are claiming the comma should come after today. Look how that comes out. "Jesus said today, thou shalt be with me in paradise." Why the need to tell everyone Jesus said that today? We know when he said it.
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Heaven
Jun 19, 2019 16:17:21 GMT -5
Post by joseph on Jun 19, 2019 16:17:21 GMT -5
oops..... I know it was not on purpose, but even using KJV, you misquoted Jesus. They are claiming the comma should come after today. Look how that comes out. "Jesus said today, thou shalt be with me in paradise." Why the need to tell everyone Jesus said that today? We know when he said it. This is good direction to go - question everything,
IF , and ONLY IF, you are SEEKING THE TRUTH, and KEEP SEEKING THE TRUTH.The answer to your seeking will be found, as long as you are seeking the truth, and keep seeking the truth. (I can't tell if you are seeking the truth, or mocking it here) Once you find the truth, as God Promises, the truth will set you free. (from the errors, from sin, and from the enemy/ false teaching)
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