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Post by John on Jun 19, 2019 7:08:14 GMT -5
I really don’t care what translation a person uses. Others can do what they wish. But, if your argument relies on a translation discrepancy, and we have to believe KJV got it wrong in order to see your view, I am not interested. Neither am I interested in facing resistance/disinterest from most of the group when I try to defend a KJV translation. So I won’t waste my effort anymore. There is an argument going around that claims that scribes added things to the text or changed the text, so we can't trust our KJV Bible. It is just another assault on the Word of God in English, and a way to defend the removal of verses and changes made to the text in modern translations. Satan is going out of his way to get people to distrust scripture.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2019 9:05:31 GMT -5
Yes....exact words matter.....in tracing a theme in scripture, or seeking the whole counsel of God on a matter, or just in enjoying and glorifying God for the richness of His word, etc. It would be much better if we could have the very originals, before the "lying pen of the scribes" started to get hold of it. But of course the Lord foreknew everything that would happen and what would come against the truth, and with His help we can still receive understanding of the truth. We need to always be looking to the Lord, relying on Him, and test everything like the Bereans. There is no proof scribes came in and changed anything. That is just a slanderous accusation people have been making. As for the Bereans, they were not seeking whether or not scribes or anyone messed up the scriptures. The Bible says that "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." I wish that more people would do what the Bereans did, rather than spending their time questioning what can be trusted in the Bible.
I would point one thing out. The Bible never actually teaches us to be good Bereans. I hear this a lot, but the Bible never says that. It only compares the people of Berea to those in other places, and commends them for being "more noble than those in Thessalonica." They took the time to consider what the Apostles had to say, and as a result, many would come to believe in Jesus.
GOD, who knows all things, said it brother.....Jeremiah 8:8. The Bereans were commended for searching the scriptures to see if what the apostles were saying was true. They were commended for testing even the apostles. Test all things means all things....I don't see any exceptions to that. Even the apostles...think about it.
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Post by John on Jun 19, 2019 9:17:07 GMT -5
There is no proof scribes came in and changed anything. That is just a slanderous accusation people have been making. As for the Bereans, they were not seeking whether or not scribes or anyone messed up the scriptures. The Bible says that "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." I wish that more people would do what the Bereans did, rather than spending their time questioning what can be trusted in the Bible.
I would point one thing out. The Bible never actually teaches us to be good Bereans. I hear this a lot, but the Bible never says that. It only compares the people of Berea to those in other places, and commends them for being "more noble than those in Thessalonica." They took the time to consider what the Apostles had to say, and as a result, many would come to believe in Jesus.
GOD, who knows all things, said it brother.....Jeremiah 8:8. The Bereans were commended for searching the scriptures to see if what the apostles were saying was true. They were commended for testing even the apostles. Test all things means all things....I don't see any exceptions to that. Even the apostles...think about it. There is no way to prove a scribal error or change. We don't have the original manuscripts, so all this does is sow seeds of doubt. Jeremiah 8:8 doesn't prove scribes altered the Biblical text, and the Bible doesn't instruct us to be Bereans. It only tells what they did and compares them to those in Thessalonica.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2019 13:47:29 GMT -5
GOD, who knows all things, said it brother.....Jeremiah 8:8. The Bereans were commended for searching the scriptures to see if what the apostles were saying was true. They were commended for testing even the apostles. Test all things means all things....I don't see any exceptions to that. Even the apostles...think about it. There is no way to prove a scribal error or change. We don't have the original manuscripts, so all this does is sow seeds of doubt. Jeremiah 8:8 doesn't prove scribes altered the Biblical text, and the Bible doesn't instruct us to be Bereans. It only tells what they did and compares them to those in Thessalonica.
Well maybe you just ponder it for a while brother. We need ears to hear what the Spirit is saying. And our trust is in Him, the Living God, who leads us into all truth.
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Post by John on Jun 19, 2019 13:54:50 GMT -5
There is no way to prove a scribal error or change. We don't have the original manuscripts, so all this does is sow seeds of doubt. Jeremiah 8:8 doesn't prove scribes altered the Biblical text, and the Bible doesn't instruct us to be Bereans. It only tells what they did and compares them to those in Thessalonica.
Well maybe you just ponder it for a while brother. We need ears to hear what the Spirit is saying. And our trust is in Him, the Living God, who leads us into all truth. That is what I was doing was being led of the Spirit when I was shown that Satan is attacking God's Word by using people to claim it can't fully be trusted because of supposed changes made by scribes, a conspiracy by people sympathetic to the RCC, and people who don't want any absolutes. I am fully persuaded that my KJV Bible is fully reliable, and I can trust it completely for total accuracy.
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Post by joseph on Jun 19, 2019 16:50:40 GMT -5
There is no proof scribes came in and changed anything. That is just a slanderous accusation people have been making. As for the Bereans, they were not seeking whether or not scribes or anyone messed up the scriptures. The Bible says that "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." I wish that more people would do what the Bereans did, rather than spending their time questioning what can be trusted in the Bible.
I would point one thing out. The Bible never actually teaches us to be good Bereans. I hear this a lot, but the Bible never says that. It only compares the people of Berea to those in other places, and commends them for being "more noble than those in Thessalonica." They took the time to consider what the Apostles had to say, and as a result, many would come to believe in Jesus.
GOD, who knows all things, said it brother.....Jeremiah 8:8. The Bereans were commended for searching the scriptures to see if what the apostles were saying was true. They were commended for testing even the apostles. Test all things means all things....I don't see any exceptions to that. Even the apostles...think about it. What is the other option ? Instead of testing everything ? Isn't it to accept what is said, without proving it is truth ? (like billions accept what the roman catholic church says, even not knowing it came from the ccatholic church) Thus often being deceived ? (very often multitudes are still daily deceived by tradition, using Scripture ! ? ) When something is tested, this includes the origin of it. If something originates in the flesh, or in the catholic church, it is a lie; it is false. No further test is needed if the origin is known to be evil. (when this is known properly as Yahuweh teaches/ reveals in His Word). A bad tree will not bring forth truth. A seeming contradiction is seen when a religious teacher who is a hypocrite teaches TORAH. But TORAH originates from Yahuweh. It is from and of Yahuweh. A gift of Yahuweh Himself. The hypocritical life of a religious teacher does not originate from Yahuweh, nor from heaven. Thus TORAH is good to listen to; but as Jesus says, beware the leaven of the religious teachers. Accept TORAH, but do not live as they live, because they do not live as they teach.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2019 19:15:18 GMT -5
GOD, who knows all things, said it brother.....Jeremiah 8:8. The Bereans were commended for searching the scriptures to see if what the apostles were saying was true. They were commended for testing even the apostles. Test all things means all things....I don't see any exceptions to that. Even the apostles...think about it. What is the other option ? Instead of testing everything ? Isn't it to accept what is said, without proving it is truth ? (like billions accept what the roman catholic church says, even not knowing it came from the ccatholic church) Thus often being deceived ? (very often multitudes are still daily deceived by tradition, using Scripture ! ? ) When something is tested, this includes the origin of it. If something originates in the flesh, or in the catholic church, it is a lie; it is false. No further test is needed if the origin is known to be evil. (when this is known properly as Yahuweh teaches/ reveals in His Word). A bad tree will not bring forth truth. A seeming contradiction is seen when a religious teacher who is a hypocrite teaches TORAH. But TORAH originates from Yahuweh. It is from and of Yahuweh. A gift of Yahuweh Himself. The hypocritical life of a religious teacher does not originate from Yahuweh, nor from heaven. Thus TORAH is good to listen to; but as Jesus says, beware the leaven of the religious teachers. Accept TORAH, but do not live as they live, because they do not live as they teach. Yes....it's those who are zealous for the truth who want to test everything....while those who are zealous for their tradition or point of view would have us not test all things. There's nothing new under the sun, ever, it seems.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2019 19:24:12 GMT -5
I just marvel at the wisdom of the Lord....He sees and knows everything that man does. There truly is nothing new under the sun. Glory to the Lord.
Jer 8:8-9 How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain. The wise men are ashamed, they are dismayed and taken: lo, they have rejected the word of the LORD; and what wisdom is in them?
Jer 8:8-9 “ ‘How can you say, “We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD,” when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely? The wise will be put to shame; they will be dismayed and trapped. Since they have rejected the word of the LORD, what kind of wisdom do they have?
Jer 8:8-9 “How can you say, ‘We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us’? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made it into a lie.
“The wise men are put to shame, They are dismayed and caught; Behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, And what kind of wisdom do they have?
Jer 8:8-9 How do ye say, We are wise, And the law of Jehovah is with us? Surely, lo, falsely it hath wrought, The false pen of scribes. Ashamed have been the wise, They have been affrighted, and are captured, Lo, against a word of Jehovah they kicked, And the wisdom of what -- have they?
Jer 8:8-9 "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. The wise men shall be put to shame, they shall be dismayed and taken; lo, they have rejected the word of the LORD, and what wisdom is in them?
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Post by John on Jun 19, 2019 19:56:13 GMT -5
The only way to test the accuracy of the text is to examine the closest English translation to the KJV, the Geneva Bible. To my knowledge, I only know of one minor difference between the text of the KJV an the Geneva Bible, and that is the word Easter verses Passover. That is hardly worth making a major case over. Those who put out the Geneva Bible were in no way connected to the Catholic Church or sympathetic to it, but they did have one thing in common with the KJV translators. Both had the same foundation, the same manuscripts. Even though I am just fine with the word Easter in the Bible, it is a relatively minor issue, so if you want to really show yourself a good Berean, I suggest that you get a Geneva Bible and a KJV Bible and go through all 66 books and see if they are basically saying the same thing in all 66 books. I would not test it with the Greek and Hebrew manuscripts floating around today, as they are not the same manuscripts the church had, but they are more recent discoveries from Alexandria and Egypt. Have you compared the Geneva Bible to the KJV Bible?
Frankly, I find all of this nonsense. I see no reason to test it. I just accept my KJV Bible as is, but if you or anyone else wants to do a comprehensive comparison of those two early English translations, and you want to start a thread showing your findings, I will look at it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2019 6:34:16 GMT -5
The only way to test the accuracy of the text is to examine the closest English translation to the KJV, the Geneva Bible. To my knowledge, I only know of one minor difference between the text of the KJV an the Geneva Bible, and that is the word Easter verses Passover. That is hardly worth making a major case over. Those who put out the Geneva Bible were in no way connected to the Catholic Church or sympathetic to it, but they did have one thing in common with the KJV translators. Both had the same foundation, the same manuscripts. Even though I am just fine with the word Easter in the Bible, it is a relatively minor issue, so if you want to really show yourself a good Berean, I suggest that you get a Geneva Bible and a KJV Bible and go through all 66 books and see if they are basically saying the same thing in all 66 books. I would not test it with the Greek and Hebrew manuscripts floating around today, as they are not the same manuscripts the church had, but they are more recent discoveries from Alexandria and Egypt. Have you compared the Geneva Bible to the KJV Bible?
Frankly, I find all of this nonsense. I see no reason to test it. I just accept my KJV Bible as is, but if you or anyone else wants to do a comprehensive comparison of those two early English translations, and you want to start a thread showing your findings, I will look at it.
I can't help but reflect how the vast majority of believers are not bible scholars, or biblical archeologists or linguists, etc......we are just ordinary people......many, many of God's people around the world don't even have a computer to be able to access information like the Geneva bible. In some countries it is even difficult to have a copy of any bible, or part of a bible. What hope is there for plain old ordinary simple believers? Answer: the Living God through Christ. He's alive, He's real and He truly Helps us. I even consider that a big problem we have here in the west is that we are too smart, we know too much and are too self-reliant and it gets in the way of relying on the Spirit. And the fact that there are many aspects to acquiring to wisdom and understanding....first and foremost being that we need a reliance on the Holy Spirit......asking God for wisdom, who doesn't upbraid us for asking, and we only ask once we know our need......and also that it is a matter of growth.....and then there is an aspect that we need to "buy" the truth (but sell it not)...meaning we pay a price for it as we go along following Jesus, counting the cost. So there is more to this than just comparing bibles and manuscripts, etc. The Lord doesn't expect or even want us to figure it all out on our own...on the contrary the carnal mind is enmity with God. We need to lay aside our own understanding and intellects in order to receive the mind of Christ on a thing, and things like pride and self-righteousness are some of the things that get in the way of that here in the west especially, where self-effort and work ethic etc, have become idols in place of the Living God. Anyway, those are just some ramblings and things that come to mind in general with this whole thing this morning....I am not saying that we shouldn't do our due diligence if and when we can, but just that our reliance needs to be on the Lord rather than on our own efforts and own understanding. When we are wise in our own eyes then the truth is hidden from us....it's only revealed to little children.....children are the opposite of self-reliant and look to their parents (heavenly Father) for everything. I'm someone who grew up far too self-reliant and it took me a long time to become aware of my need and to begin learning to rely on the Lord more...thankfully I have found Him to be patient and kind...He knows how the enemy has caused us to make our paths crooked, and the lies we came to believe, and all the things and issues in life that have been arrayed against us, and is able to help us make progress in any area we need, as we seek Him.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Jun 20, 2019 8:32:45 GMT -5
Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews: And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ. And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few. But the Jews which believed not, moved with envy, took unto them certain lewd fellows of the baser sort, and gathered a company, and set all the city on an uproar, and assaulted the house of Jason, and sought to bring them out to the people. — Acts 17:1-5A mob of Jews in Thessalonica recruited low-life scumbags to start a riot. They vandalized Jason’s house on their rampage. Jews in Berea were better than that. They were open-minded enough to listen to Paul (readiness of mind) and they took the more civilized approach of examining Scripture to test him. Many of them came to believe, but we don’t know what ended up happening in the church there. In other places in the NT, people had to believe something supernaturally. Peter had no way to explain Cornelius receiving the Holy Spirit when it first happened. Paul could not explain to his Jewish brethren how Jesus knocked him off his horse and blinded him for three days. Can’t search for that in Scripture. In Acts 16, we see Lydia believe when God “opened her heart” to accept what Paul was saying. That very day, she hosted Paul in her house to start a new church. She didn’t need days of study to make up her mind. Well guess what. The Philippian church has an epistle in the Bible, and the Bereans don’t. People converted all sorts of different ways in the NT. Examining Scripture for days on end wasn’t listed as a requirement. This option certainly wasn’t available to illiterate Greeks and barbarians who didn’t know what a Torah was. While I certainly believe we must use the Bible as our source of truth, I also agree with watchful to a great extent. Having the resources to collect a library doesn’t make anyone a better Christian than those who can’t afford it. Either the fullness of God’s word is available to all His children, or it isn’t. And really, as far as I’m concerned, effective execution of what we already know is infinitely more important than always striving to know more. I do not mean this as an attack on anyone here. I’m just talking based on general experience. We’ve seen far too many “Bible teachers” go down in flames because they never learned how to control their behavior. I believe it is very unfortunate that the Berean thing has reached near idol status in the modern American church.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2019 8:48:47 GMT -5
Kinda got a little sidetracked from the study of PROVERBS here. Be nice to see this emotional subject in another thread.
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Cletus
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Post by Cletus on Jun 20, 2019 8:48:59 GMT -5
Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews: And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ. And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few. But the Jews which believed not, moved with envy, took unto them certain lewd fellows of the baser sort, and gathered a company, and set all the city on an uproar, and assaulted the house of Jason, and sought to bring them out to the people. — Acts 17:1-5A mob of Jews in Thessalonica recruited low-life scumbags to start a riot. They vandalized Jason’s house on their rampage. Jews in Berea were better than that. They were open-minded enough to listen to Paul (readiness of mind) and they took the more civilized approach of examining Scripture to test him. Many of them came to believe, but we don’t know what ended up happening in the church there. In other places in the NT, people had to believe something supernaturally. Peter had no way to explain Cornelius receiving the Holy Spirit when it first happened. Paul could not explain to his Jewish brethren how Jesus knocked him off his horse and blinded him for three days. Can’t search for that in Scripture. In Acts 16, we see Lydia believe when God “opened her heart” to accept what Paul was saying. That very day, she hosted Paul in her house to start a new church. She didn’t need days of study to make up her mind. Well guess what. The Philippian church has an epistle in the Bible, and the Bereans don’t. People converted all sorts of different ways in the NT. Examining Scripture for days on end wasn’t listed as a requirement. This option certainly wasn’t available to illiterate Greeks and barbarians who didn’t know what a Torah was. While I certainly believe we must use the Bible as our source of truth, I also agree with watchful to a great extent. Having the resources to collect a library doesn’t make anyone a better Christian than those who can’t afford it. Either the fullness of God’s word is available to all His children, or it isn’t. And really, as far as I’m concerned, effective execution of what we already know is infinitely more important than always striving to know more. I do not mean this as an attack on anyone here. I’m just talking based on general experience. We’ve seen far too many “Bible teachers” go down in flames because they never learned how to control their behavior. I believe it is very unfortunate that the Berean thing has reached near idol status in the modern American church. we got some low life scum bags hiring people to start riots today too! and what do ya know... its against God and His ways still.
rioters. its really rebellion full force. and rebellion is as witchcraft to God.
moses had a problem with self control. shall i fetch water for you rebels? I am beginning to see a new depth of longsuffering and patience. the only remedy as i see is that we have to die to self. my example i look at is how God has dealt with me/put up with me. it really makes me think on things like i see children and parents... i put my parents thru this when i was little... kinda thing. and with God... yes i did that didnt I? (ok.. ok, you are right as always, i confess and yield)
its humbling and comical all at the same time. it makes me want to push harder to be less like that and more like Him. (God give me that, let me have that in me!)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2019 8:51:20 GMT -5
I can't help but reflect how the vast majority of believers are not bible scholars, or biblical archeologists or linguists, etc......we are just ordinary people......many, many of God's people around the world don't even have a computer to be able to access information like the Geneva bible. In some countries it is even difficult to have a copy of any bible, or part of a bible. What hope is there for plain old ordinary simple believers? Answer: the Living God through Christ. He's alive, He's real and He truly Helps us. I even consider that a big problem we have here in the west is that we are too smart, we know too much and are too self-reliant and it gets in the way of relying on the Spirit. And the fact that there are many aspects to acquiring to wisdom and understanding....first and foremost being that we need a reliance on the Holy Spirit......asking God for wisdom, who doesn't upbraid us for asking, and we only ask once we know our need......and also that it is a matter of growth.....and then there is an aspect that we need to "buy" the truth (but sell it not)...meaning we pay a price for it as we go along following Jesus, counting the cost. So there is more to this than just comparing bibles and manuscripts, etc. The Lord doesn't expect or even want us to figure it all out on our own...on the contrary the carnal mind is enmity with God. We need to lay aside our own understanding and intellects in order to receive the mind of Christ on a thing, and things like pride and self-righteousness are some of the things that get in the way of that here in the west especially, where self-effort and work ethic etc, have become idols in place of the Living God. Anyway, those are just some ramblings and things that come to mind in general with this whole thing this morning....I am not saying that we shouldn't do our due diligence if and when we can, but just that our reliance needs to be on the Lord rather than on our own efforts and own understanding. When we are wise in our own eyes then the truth is hidden from us....it's only revealed to little children.....children are the opposite of self-reliant and look to their parents (heavenly Father) for everything. I'm someone who grew up far too self-reliant and it took me a long time to become aware of my need and to begin learning to rely on the Lord more...thankfully I have found Him to be patient and kind...He knows how the enemy has caused us to make our paths crooked, and the lies we came to believe, and all the things and issues in life that have been arrayed against us, and is able to help us make progress in any area we need, as we seek Him. Amen.
Relying on the carnal mind to understand the Bible indeed is something that will hinder spiritual growth.
I am extreme, I do not even care too much over details people spend hours and hours debating.
I just follow the Spirit's explanation of things I am questioning and not understanding and they simply come.
And how do we know it is correct?! You can know if something is true, the Spirit will not let you confused.
We have to test things spiritually, by the Spirit and not by the letter. If the letter is confusing, the Spirit is clear and precise.
Unfortunately, many people have fear (mixed with ignorance) of relying fully on the Spirit and they resort to carnal strategies to make their point.
The Spirit gives understanding, no matter how it is written. It is supernatural and beyond carnal comprehension.
And if there was a problem with all translations (which I doubt).
God is powerful to rise people in different corners of the Earth to rewrite His Words as they are, and they would all match.
But that will never be needed because God is powerful and He can use all things to His benefit and of those who believe Him.
And God did not fail to keep His Word, His Word is here.
The Bible does not need to be perfect (in a carnal sense) to make people see and understand the truth.
The Bible is spiritually perfect, as it is a spiritual book. Through carnal lens you will always be finding something "questionable" (when there is not).
Blessings!Bless you Letters....God's grace is sufficient, amen. His truth is spiritual, and the Spirit is able to reveal His truth. Things often get misunderstood, but testing all things to me doesn't involve an attitude of suspiciousness and doubt, but an attitude of being sober and alert and looking to the Lord. Reading the bible prayerfully, not as a textbook. I read the King James mostly and occasionally check other translations as well as Greek and Hebrew definitions and biblical useage of the word. That's about the extent of my 'scholarliness'....I just do the best I can personally, and with the Holy Spirit it is fruitful (not without Him). Occasionally I have come across something that is more clear in another translation and obscure in the King James. And the fact that the word "Easter" is in the KJV, doesn't mean I intend to throw out my whole KJV bible for example, just that after testing and looking into it, I'm awake and aware, and when I see that part I won't "eat" of that word, so to speak. There are one or two versions that are so far off course that I don't believe they can even be considered to be translations, but are paraphrases of one man's interpretation ...whereas we are told that the word of God is of no private interpretation, so I wouldn't even consider them to be bibles. I believe we should be responsible and use the best most accurate translations we have access to and know of, to the best of our understanding....if we love the truth we aren't going to knowingly and deliberately use the worst translation we can find. We do our part in sincerity as we are able....and always rely on the Lord for His Help and leading, because we need Him regardless of the translation we are using.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Jun 20, 2019 9:30:25 GMT -5
I’ve seen what I need to see.
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