Cletus
Senior Member
Posts: 2,517
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Post by Cletus on Jul 30, 2019 20:33:07 GMT -5
oh, and one more little thought on hebrews. if osas or faith plus nothing is true... why then was the letter even written telling them not to return to the old belief system/covenant? was it because the apostles were concerned about growing the church and adding numbers to their mega churches?
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Post by justinadams on Jul 31, 2019 4:13:26 GMT -5
oh, and one more little thought on hebrews. if osas or faith plus nothing is true... why then was the letter even written telling them not to return to the old belief system/covenant? was it because the apostles were concerned about growing the church and adding numbers to their mega churches? Faith plus nothing is as fake as misusing Hebrews to beat up on people. The writer was most concerned with only one sin - that of apostasy and turning back to the Judaic methods. The 'sin' he mentions often is 'putting Christ to an open shame' by returning to the sacrificial system. Folk have misused Hebrews to beat on people and cause them to loose faith. This is EXACTLY OPPOSITE to why Hebrews was penned. To encourage people to not fall away and stay strong in their professed faith is what we SHOULD be doing. But we see many scriptures taken out of context to try to prove that actions we do affect our Salvation. By doing so we weaken faith and CAUSE many to turn away from the constant browbeating. We need encouragement and not indictments. We do need to take stock of what we do and say. Salvation did not require we DID anything and to loose it we do not have to DO anything with the exception of turning away from Yeshua and renouncing Him for 'another way'.
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Post by John on Jul 31, 2019 4:43:31 GMT -5
oh, and one more little thought on hebrews. if osas or faith plus nothing is true... why then was the letter even written telling them not to return to the old belief system/covenant? was it because the apostles were concerned about growing the church and adding numbers to their mega churches? Faith plus nothing is as fake as misusing Hebrews to beat up on people. The writer was most concerned with only one sin - that of apostasy and turning back to the Judaic methods. The 'sin' he mentions often is 'putting Christ to an open shame' by returning to the sacrificial system. Folk have misused Hebrews to beat on people and cause them to loose faith. This is EXACTLY OPPOSITE to why Hebrews was penned. To encourage people to not fall away and stay strong in their professed faith is what we SHOULD be doing. But we see many scriptures taken out of context to try to prove that actions we do affect our Salvation. By doing so we weaken faith and CAUSE many to turn away from the constant browbeating. We need encouragement and not indictments. We do need to take stock of what we do and say. Salvation did not require we DID anything and to loose it we do not have to DO anything with the exception of turning away from Yeshua and renouncing Him for 'another way'. I would suggest the real problem is just the opposite of what you say. People are being lied to by those who promote OSAS into believing that as Christians they can continue to live in a lifestyle of premeditated and willful sin, and they are going along as though they were still in the faith but they are really lost. Just because a person doesn't walk away physically doesn't mean they didn't leave the faith. If they return to living like the devil, they do not remain saved. People need to be careful is right, because those who tell people they can do nothing to lose salvation will be held accountable for all those who wind up in hell due to their return to sinful living.
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Post by solid on Jul 31, 2019 5:37:38 GMT -5
If people obey the Lord, none of this would matter.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Jul 31, 2019 5:46:54 GMT -5
If people obey the Lord, none of this would matter. “Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart,
from a good conscience, and from sincere faith, from which some,
having strayed, have turned aside to idle talk...” - 1 Timothy 1:5-6
“...Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children,
you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.” - Matthew 18:3
“Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them...” - Matthew 18:2
“...Has the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices,
As in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice...” - 1 Samuel 15:22
“Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.” - Matthew 18:4
“For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.” - 2 Corinthians 13:8
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Post by justinadams on Jul 31, 2019 6:21:05 GMT -5
Faith plus nothing is as fake as misusing Hebrews to beat up on people. The writer was most concerned with only one sin - that of apostasy and turning back to the Judaic methods. The 'sin' he mentions often is 'putting Christ to an open shame' by returning to the sacrificial system. Folk have misused Hebrews to beat on people and cause them to loose faith. This is EXACTLY OPPOSITE to why Hebrews was penned. To encourage people to not fall away and stay strong in their professed faith is what we SHOULD be doing. But we see many scriptures taken out of context to try to prove that actions we do affect our Salvation. By doing so we weaken faith and CAUSE many to turn away from the constant browbeating. We need encouragement and not indictments. We do need to take stock of what we do and say. Salvation did not require we DID anything and to loose it we do not have to DO anything with the exception of turning away from Yeshua and renouncing Him for 'another way'. I would suggest the real problem is just the opposite of what you say. People are being lied to by those who promote OSAS into believing that as Christians they can continue to live in a lifestyle of premeditated and willful sin, and they are going along as though they were still in the faith but they are really lost. Just because a person doesn't walk away physically doesn't mean they didn't leave the faith. If they return to living like the devil, they do not remain saved. People need to be careful is right, because those who tell people they can do nothing to lose salvation will be held accountable for all those who wind up in hell due to their return to sinful living.
OSAS is just a wrong as misusing scriptures such as Hebrews to beat believers up who are flagging and who need encouragement to KEEP BELIEVING and trusting in Yeshau (Jesus). So many have been turned away because LOVE was not the primary focus of the assemblies, but rather guilt and condemnation. Using scripture as a bludgeon only serves the adversary's aims and methods.
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Post by John on Jul 31, 2019 6:23:35 GMT -5
If people obey the Lord, none of this would matter. That is a good point.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2019 6:31:25 GMT -5
The epistles were not ordinary letters.....they were mostly speaking a spiritual word in spirit, so while they were sometimes addressing specific people about specific problems, they are also a living word (alive and active) speaking on more than one level at once, and they form part of the foundation of the faith. Even though the passage in Hebrews about willfully sinning was warning against returning under the Law and sacrificial system, it ALSO is speaking in a wider way about willful sin to all believers. And all believers down through history can likewise be encouraged through the other passage to not forsake assembling together during any time of persecution by anybody.
Sin in its various forms can cause a person to fall away....bearing in mind that even though the Lord is longsuffering, the Holy Spirit at some point can be grieved enough to depart (ichabod), either a congregation or individual, and that the most deceptive and dangerous form of apostasy is when individuals or churches deny the faith and do wrong in the name of Christ, without consciously denouncing or denying Him. During the apostasy of ancient Israel, Israel was serving two masters...both Baal and Yahweh....Elijah told them they needed to not halt between two opinions, to decide to either serve God or serve Baal, but not both....and this agrees with Jesus saying He would rather we be stone cold than lukewarm.
Sin is a mortal enemy because the wages of it are death (spiritual) and it separates us from God (after having been reconciled to Him)......and we do need to take heed to ourselves as well as guarding our hearts with diligence.
Deu 11:16
Take heed to yourselves, that your heart be not deceived, and ye turn aside, and serve other gods, and worship them;
Luk 21:34
And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
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Post by John on Jul 31, 2019 6:49:15 GMT -5
I would suggest the real problem is just the opposite of what you say. People are being lied to by those who promote OSAS into believing that as Christians they can continue to live in a lifestyle of premeditated and willful sin, and they are going along as though they were still in the faith but they are really lost. Just because a person doesn't walk away physically doesn't mean they didn't leave the faith. If they return to living like the devil, they do not remain saved. People need to be careful is right, because those who tell people they can do nothing to lose salvation will be held accountable for all those who wind up in hell due to their return to sinful living.
OSAS is just a wrong as misusing scriptures such as Hebrews to beat believers up who are flagging and who need encouragement to KEEP BELIEVING and trusting in Yeshau (Jesus). So many have been turned away because LOVE was not the primary focus of the assemblies, but rather guilt and condemnation. Using scripture as a bludgeon only serves the adversary's aims and methods. We are not talking about believers who are struggling. We are talking about Christians who are in willful rebellion. That is what a willful sin is. It is choosing to sin. It is not about those who have addictions and are trying and stumbling. They need to keep seeking God till they are delivered. We are talking about people who are without excuse. They are choosing to have affairs. They are choosing to steal. They are choosing to fornicate. They are just choosing to ignore God's standards. Those kind of sins are not under the original blood covering that saved them.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2019 7:11:40 GMT -5
I would suggest the real problem is just the opposite of what you say. People are being lied to by those who promote OSAS into believing that as Christians they can continue to live in a lifestyle of premeditated and willful sin, and they are going along as though they were still in the faith but they are really lost. Just because a person doesn't walk away physically doesn't mean they didn't leave the faith. If they return to living like the devil, they do not remain saved. People need to be careful is right, because those who tell people they can do nothing to lose salvation will be held accountable for all those who wind up in hell due to their return to sinful living.
OSAS is just a wrong as misusing scriptures such as Hebrews to beat believers up who are flagging and who need encouragement to KEEP BELIEVING and trusting in Yeshau (Jesus). So many have been turned away because LOVE was not the primary focus of the assemblies, but rather guilt and condemnation. Using scripture as a bludgeon only serves the adversary's aims and methods. There needs to be a good balance........people need to be ministered to, comforted and encouraged as well as exhorted and reproved. Very hard to do that over the internet, it's just reality of the medium I think...we tend to focus on doctrine and argue differing points of view a lot, and while gifting and skill levels vary among individuals, I find it's hard to convey love and concern in black and white words, I'm focused on trying to express the point accurately. As a body we ideally should do all things in a well rounded way, and not just emphasize one aspect at the expense of others. Pastors preaching to a group in person will have that balance if they are doing things right...by God's grace something for everyone will come forth, according to what each one needs at the time. And some giftings just emphasize comfort and succour more, while others emphasize doctrine, etc.
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PG4Him
Senior Member
Essay Moderator
Posts: 3,570
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Post by PG4Him on Jul 31, 2019 7:15:51 GMT -5
I warn so much about the dangers because I’ve seen too many fall away. Not just babes who lose interest in the faith, but mature people in ministry who made one mistake after another. Simon the Sorcerer’s great sin was not the fact that he rejected Jesus.
Corinthians was written to the church at Corinth, but we can’t say the instructions on prophecy only apply to Corinth. We can’t say James’ words about favoring the rich only apply to Jews of the diaspora. Given how much the apostles spoke on removing division in the church, I refuse to believe they wrote anything in an epistle that didn’t apply to the body. Paul encouraged different churches to read each other’s letters. Peter had clearly been reading them too. Nowhere did they say a letter to one church was no one else’s problem.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2019 8:24:40 GMT -5
I warn so much about the dangers because I’ve seen too many fall away. Not just babes who lose interest in the faith, but mature people in ministry who made one mistake after another. Simon the Sorcerer’s great sin was not the fact that he rejected Jesus. Corinthians was written to the church at Corinth, but we can’t say the instructions on prophecy only apply to Corinth. We can’t say James’ words about favoring the rich only apply to Jews of the diaspora. Given how much the apostles spoke on removing division in the church, I refuse to believe they wrote anything in an epistle that didn’t apply to the body. Paul encouraged different churches to read each other’s letters. Peter had clearly been reading them too. Nowhere did they say a letter to one church was no one else’s problem. Yes......and let's face it there is a great need today, since there is so much error and deception and the church is falling away. When you keep bumping into dangerous error it's hard to ignore and most of the time something needs to be said.
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