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Post by John on Aug 1, 2019 9:13:42 GMT -5
I have been involved in my fair share of OSAS debates over the years. They become filled with emotions, scare tactics, claims that hermeneutics don't support this or that view, catch phrases repeated at nauseum, accusations against others for being prideful or not believing God. It goes on and on. What I am not seeing is real substance and simply discussing scripture. It is not a valid argument to claim my view must be wrong because it contradicts a scripture you hold to. It may just as easily be said that your scripture must not mean what you say because it contradicts my scripture.
Here is what I am willing to do. The official position of Narrow Way Forums is that OSAS is a false doctrine. Anyone promoting it is in opposition to our Statement of Faith, and their posts may be removed. That goes for all areas including the Visitor's Forum. Here is what I am willing to try. Anyone can post in this section, including visitors. If you can have a civil discussion that avoids the tactics I mentioned, I will discuss this with you. Keep in mind that the KJV Bible is what we go by, not Greek and Hebrew manuscripts. You may use other translations, but if it contradicts the KJV Bible, we revert back to that as the final authority. Endorsements of preachers who support one view or the other are not allowed and will be removed, as will video links or links to other web-sites.
One other thing. Continually repeating the same scriptures over and over wont be allowed. If you want to discuss a scripture, do it and move on. Make it count, but leave out emotional appeals or personal attacks. Posts will be edited or removed at our discretion if these guidelines aren't followed. If your view has substance, you should welcome this opportunity.
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Post by solid on Aug 4, 2019 22:11:22 GMT -5
That would be interesting. Only able to discuss a scripture once, not over and over. No accusations. No catch phrases. You might just get somewhere.
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Post by John on Aug 5, 2019 6:57:10 GMT -5
For a person who is already persuaded one way or the other, I am not sure there is a way to convince them they are wrong, because most already have heard all the scriptures on both sides and they simply don't interpret them the same way. As such, you will find that there are people that cling to a handful of verses and try to make everything else agree with them. They have no real answers for the verses that go against their position, so their responses are very weak when they are forced to face them. What they prefer to do instead is ignore them and keep returning to the same handful of scriptures they started with, claiming they prove they are right. If this can be discussed where neither side can simply keep recycling the same verses over and over, that would put a stop to going around in circles. Take away the arguments based on emotional appeal and accusations, and remove catch phrases, and you are down to having to focus on scripture alone.
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Post by John on Aug 5, 2019 7:09:53 GMT -5
Here is a good passage to start with. Hebrews 10:26-31
For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, and unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
If I know going in that I can't use video links, or links to commentaries to make this passage read as I wish, and I can't look to other verses in other parts of the Bible and claim it can't mean what it plainly says because it supposedly contradicts them, that forces us to look at the actual text. If I can't attack people and accuse them of trying to save themselves or of being sinners looking for a way to keep sinning, it takes away a lot of the silly distractions. What does the actual text say? What does it mean? If we are forced to take it as written, without claiming translations errors or that we need to be experts in Greek and understand the culture of the day it was written, what does it mean? There are many ways people twist scriptures, and there are clear patterns. Imagine just taking the KJV Bible as written and accepting it as bring us absolute truth! That is what we do here at Narrow Way Forums.
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Post by John on Aug 5, 2019 7:29:20 GMT -5
Here is a good passage to start with. Hebrews 10:26-31
For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, and unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
If I simply take this passage as written, here is how it comes across to me. If we sin intentionally, on purpose, with premeditation, willfully, presumptuously, after we already received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for those sins. It is not speaking of all sins, but those done on purpose. It is not speaking of things we just slip and do wrong. After we have come to the knowledge of the truth to me means that we understand a thing is sin. For instance, I know it is wrong to commit adultery, so if I begin an affair, and keep choosing to engage in this type of fornication, I am committing a willful sin. If I drop a bowling ball on my toe and slip and say a 4 letter word, that is not willful. If I commit intentional sins, they are not under automatically under the blood covering. There remains no more sacrifice for those sins. Only past sins done before I got saved, and sins done by mistake are automatically covered.
If I don't make things right with God, what can I expect? Judgment and fiery indignation. I will suffer the same judgment as those who were never saved, and perhaps worse because there are different degrees of torments in hell. It says that those who make light of the blood of Jesus that saved us are worthy of worse punishment than those who were under the entirety of the law of Moses. We know that this is speaking of people who have been saved, because it states that they have been sanctified. When they sin willfully, they are guilty of seeing the blood of the covenant as an unholy thing and doing despite unto or insulting the Spirit of grace.
It says in this passage that God will get vengeance on those sinful Christians. How do we know they are Christians? Because of what it says next. "The Lord shall judge his people." It doesn't say sinners that rejected the plan of salvation after hearing it. It calls them "his people." Then comes the warning. "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."
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777
Senior Member
Teacher
Posts: 1,189
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Post by 777 on Aug 6, 2019 20:14:44 GMT -5
Here is a good passage to start with. Hebrews 10:26-31
For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, and unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
If I simply take this passage as written, here is how it comes across to me. If we sin intentionally, on purpose, with premeditation, willfully, presumptuously, after we already received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for those sins. It is not speaking of all sins, but those done on purpose. It is not speaking of things we just slip and do wrong. After we have come to the knowledge of the truth to me means that we understand a thing is sin. For instance, I know it is wrong to commit adultery, so if I begin an affair, and keep choosing to engage in this type of fornication, I am committing a willful sin. If I drop a bowling ball on my toe and slip and say a 4 letter word, that is not willful. If I commit intentional sins, they are not under automatically under the blood covering. There remains no more sacrifice for those sins. Only past sins done before I got saved, and sins done by mistake are automatically covered.
If I don't make things right with God, what can I expect? Judgment and fiery indignation. I will suffer the same judgment as those who were never saved, and perhaps worse because there are different degrees of torments in hell. It says that those who make light of the blood of Jesus that saved us are worthy of worse punishment than those who were under the entirety of the law of Moses. We know that this is speaking of people who have been saved, because it states that they have been sanctified. When they sin willfully, they are guilty of seeing the blood of the covenant as an unholy thing and doing despite unto or insulting the Spirit of grace.
It says in this passage that God will get vengeance on those sinful Christians. How do we know they are Christians? Because of what it says next. "The Lord shall judge his people." It doesn't say sinners that rejected the plan of salvation after hearing it. It calls them "his people." Then comes the warning. "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."
That is what I believe this means too. It is right there. That is the plain meaning. There is nothing difficult about it, but people complicate it. At one place, I keep bringing this up, and am told that I am willingly ignorant about the real meaning because of a false teacher that says I am wrong. We need to take it as written. I am surprised nobody has tried to discuss this here, but you did place a lot of restrictions on how they can debate it.
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Post by John on Aug 6, 2019 20:32:55 GMT -5
If I simply take this passage as written, here is how it comes across to me. If we sin intentionally, on purpose, with premeditation, willfully, presumptuously, after we already received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for those sins. It is not speaking of all sins, but those done on purpose. It is not speaking of things we just slip and do wrong. After we have come to the knowledge of the truth to me means that we understand a thing is sin. For instance, I know it is wrong to commit adultery, so if I begin an affair, and keep choosing to engage in this type of fornication, I am committing a willful sin. If I drop a bowling ball on my toe and slip and say a 4 letter word, that is not willful. If I commit intentional sins, they are not under automatically under the blood covering. There remains no more sacrifice for those sins. Only past sins done before I got saved, and sins done by mistake are automatically covered.
If I don't make things right with God, what can I expect? Judgment and fiery indignation. I will suffer the same judgment as those who were never saved, and perhaps worse because there are different degrees of torments in hell. It says that those who make light of the blood of Jesus that saved us are worthy of worse punishment than those who were under the entirety of the law of Moses. We know that this is speaking of people who have been saved, because it states that they have been sanctified. When they sin willfully, they are guilty of seeing the blood of the covenant as an unholy thing and doing despite unto or insulting the Spirit of grace.
It says in this passage that God will get vengeance on those sinful Christians. How do we know they are Christians? Because of what it says next. "The Lord shall judge his people." It doesn't say sinners that rejected the plan of salvation after hearing it. It calls them "his people." Then comes the warning. "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."
That is what I believe this means too. It is right there. That is the plain meaning. There is nothing difficult about it, but people complicate it. At one place, I keep bringing this up, and am told that I am willingly ignorant about the real meaning because of a false teacher that says I am wrong. We need to take it as written. I am surprised nobody has tried to discuss this here, but you did place a lot of restrictions on how they can debate it. Everyone is too busy trying to make it agree with the views they already hold to. If they believe in OSAS, they will claim that the simplest interpretation must be wrong because it doesn't agree with what they claim other verses mean.
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Post by John on Aug 6, 2019 20:35:48 GMT -5
As far as not taking me up on the offer, I think the restrictions have a lot to do with it, plus they don't have all the advantages of having the head Administrator on their side, and moderators jumping in too. It is not friendly territory for them. It is not like we would be mean to anyone, but we are plain in taking a stand against unconditional eternal security.
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777
Senior Member
Teacher
Posts: 1,189
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Post by 777 on Aug 6, 2019 20:38:33 GMT -5
That is what I believe this means too. It is right there. That is the plain meaning. There is nothing difficult about it, but people complicate it. At one place, I keep bringing this up, and am told that I am willingly ignorant about the real meaning because of a false teacher that says I am wrong. We need to take it as written. I am surprised nobody has tried to discuss this here, but you did place a lot of restrictions on how they can debate it. Everyone is too busy trying to make it agree with the views they already hold to. If they believe in OSAS, they will claim that the simplest interpretation must be wrong because it doesn't agree with what they claim other verses mean. That is exactly what they do. It is very frustrating.
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777
Senior Member
Teacher
Posts: 1,189
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Post by 777 on Aug 6, 2019 20:43:24 GMT -5
As far as not taking me up on the offer, I think the restrictions have a lot to do with it, plus they don't have all the advantages of having the head Administrator on their side, and moderators jumping in too. It is not friendly territory for them. It is not like we would be mean to anyone, but we are plain in taking a stand against unconditional eternal security.
It feels strange here, without all the fighting over OSAS. It seems like everyone is in unity. It is very peaceful. I am not used to that. It is normally non-stop fighting. If I had known the other place was just about OSAS and trying to get everyone to believe it, including the owner of the place, I wouldn't have joined, but they don't tell you. I only remain for the sake of those they are working to deceive, but I don't know if it is doing any good. It is getting where you can't even disagree with OSAS without the owner jumping in and accusing you of derailing his threads. I needed a break, and I have enjoyed hanging out here this evening.
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Post by John on Aug 6, 2019 20:47:25 GMT -5
As far as not taking me up on the offer, I think the restrictions have a lot to do with it, plus they don't have all the advantages of having the head Administrator on their side, and moderators jumping in too. It is not friendly territory for them. It is not like we would be mean to anyone, but we are plain in taking a stand against unconditional eternal security.
It feels strange here, without all the fighting over OSAS. It seems like everyone is in unity. It is very peaceful. I am not used to that. It is normally non-stop fighting. If I had known the other place was just about OSAS and trying to get everyone to believe it, including the owner of the place, I wouldn't have joined, but they don't tell you. I only remain for the sake of those they are working to deceive, but I don't know if it is doing any good. It is getting where you can't even disagree with OSAS without the owner jumping in and accusing you of derailing his threads. I needed a break, and I have enjoyed hanging out here this evening. I am glad you were able to spend time here tonight, and you are welcome here anytime. All of the message boards are different, and everyone has a different purpose for existing.
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Post by frienduff on Aug 7, 2019 5:23:10 GMT -5
JESUS is our beloved eternal security . Yet if a man abides not , remains not , keeps not the faith and hope in HIM to the end That will be a day they had wished they had . Its very clear that the only hope , salvation we have IS JESUS CHRIST . And it is very clear FROM HE WHO IS our salvation and the men who had followed Him We better KNOW its HIM we follow and we had better remain faithful with our hope in HIM . Its very clear that if a man is a hearer and not a doer , they deceive themselves . Its very clear that if one after having received the saving knowledge , after having known the way of righteousness , if they return to the pit and are overcome in it , the latter end will be worse . Its very clear that GOD desires none to perish , but if they receive not CHRIST JESUS , they will . If they abide not in Him they will. Its very clear Those warnings in revelation show , better repent or else . Its clear where paul says , having damnation because they cast off their first faith , waxed wanton against Christ . For a man or woman to cast off the faith they had at first , MEANS THEY ACTUALLY HAD FAITH at FIRST and then waxed wanton against Christ . Its clear that GOD will unction and warn those in error , those who have slipped , those who have cast off the first faith and love . And its quite clear if they repent not of the error , He will put out that candle stick , he will even fight against them with the Sword of His mouth . SO its quite clear One must follow the lamb , faithful to the end ,and that brethren that do err from the truth , must be corrected asap convert them , you save a soul from death . Lets examine what james even says , Brethren if any of YOU . STOP right there . WHO IS JAMES TALKING TOO BRETHREN if any of YOU do err from the truth and one converts HIM back , let him know that he who converts the Sinner from the error of His ways has saved a soul from......................DEATH . Not just rewards , not just extras , BUT FROM DEATH . OUR ONLY HOPE , our ONLY SECURITY IS JESUS CHRIST , but if folks receive Him not , or do not continue in HIM and BY HIM faithful to the end They will not like THAT END at all . JESUS warned of this , the apostels did , so we should do all to do the same and remind , BY THAT SAME SPIRIT of the very things they did . EVERY reminder and warning is , FOR OUR GOOD unto our own edification that we will take heed to good examples and follow no evil examples . I do want all to know well that JESUS IS OUR ETERNAL SECURITY and to have a deep hope and trust IN THIS but to also know we better continue Faithful in HIM to the end . And Its not His desire at all that we perish , but HE KNOWS we will if we HEED HIM NOT , trusting in HIM with all the heart . HIS WORDS do good unto all who hear , believe and DO . But His words will do all things HE has said , if we heed not , and also if we HEED . HE cannot deny HIMSELF , thus the Word and words of GOD are as honey to the soul and GOOD unto all who do love and trust HIM . But if a man takes off in heeding HIM , they just wrote their own double death sentence .
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Post by frienduff on Aug 7, 2019 6:16:49 GMT -5
Someone must be a bit nervous about what I said above or they have no read it yet . LET me explain what I mean by JESUS being our ETERNAL SECURITY . We must have total hope and faith , THAT ALL JESUS DID , HIS SACRFICE IS ALL WE NEED to TRUST IN . If a man believes from the heart that JESUS IS LORD , they are born again . THUS they will have the SPIRIT which Guides us into what .............ALL TRUTH . THUS IT WOULD PUT A Great love and desire in us to read those bibles and learn CHRIST . MY faith rests in WHAT JESUS ALONE DID FOR ME . I TRUST IN THAT . AND I know by the same unction and this unction agrees with what JESUS and the Apostels said , that if one continues not IN HIM , they will be cast out . My faith is IN WHAT HE DID . AM I saying one can KNOW they are saved . YES I AM . IN fact if we don't fully know and trust THAT IN JESUS ALONE and all that HE DID is what saved us and HE can keep us from falling , WE BETTER RETURN TO THAT ALL OUT HOPE . I have seen men in other places , who can preach much truth the same way I do , and yet say we cannot know IF we are truly saved, THEN WHO and WHAT are they trusting in , THEMSELVES . IF we do not know as small children that JESUS ALONE and ALL HE DID SAVES US that it truly is the grace of GOD that does save , WE IN danger and lack trust . At the same time , if we say THIS and yet walk in sin willfully , WE KNOW HIM NOT and thus its only LIP SERVICE and that one is a hearer only and has deceived their own self . TRUST IN GOD and FOLLOW the LAMB FAITHFUL TO THE END , OBEYING THE SPIRIT and LEARNING ALL that HE HAS Said as did the apostels who also wrote good wholesome spirit filled letters . MAKE that calling and election sure , BE SURE ITS JESUS WE FOLLOW and HEED HIM and learn and heed those sayings . FOR SURELY THE SPIRIT will NOT CONTRADICT what IT INSPIRED , nor what CHRIST SAID . THE WORD , GOD , SPIRIT are all ONE and GOD cannot contradict HIMSELF or DENYHIMSELF . LEARN JESUS WELL .
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Post by John on Aug 7, 2019 6:28:29 GMT -5
Of course we can know we are saved. Repent of our sins, accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior, and take up our cross and follow him daily and we never have to worry about whether or not we are saved, or worry about losing salvation. There is perfect peace. If we were trying to save ourselves, and that were even possible, we would not need Jesus. We would just start living right and doing good deeds, like we saw with the "random acts of kindness" movement.
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Post by frienduff on Aug 7, 2019 11:52:55 GMT -5
Butero , I care not what the Vatican might say about ya , You are loved . Now put those hands up and praise the LORD .
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