PG4Him
Senior Member
Essay Moderator
Posts: 3,570
|
Post by PG4Him on Sept 3, 2019 9:41:00 GMT -5
So much of tithing doctrine relies on innuendo and hidden assumptions. We must believe that God somehow demanded 10% of people, and it was so hugely important that you’d be cursed without it, yet He didn’t make that clear in Genesis, and Abraham just “knew” it. Isaac just “knew” it. Jacob just “knew’ it. It was the best kept secret in Genesis. Then after Pentecost, it was the best kept secret in the New Testament. Everybody knew but no one wrote it down.
Maybe, just maybe... Abraham was a personal friend of the Lord, he considered the Lord to be part of his family, and he blessed his dear friend by sharing the spoils of a fight God helped him win. Jacob earnestly desired to have such a connection with God, so he took it a step further by offering a tenth portion of everything in his home. Gestures like this are what led to statements like “Jacob have I loved.” These saints forged truly loving and sentimental relationships with God. It wasn’t rote obedience to them, but a sharing of the family table.
As part of Israel’s marriage covenant with God, the sharing of household goods continued. We see from the passage about using silver coins to purchase a feast — it wasn’t a burdensome law God was holding over their heads. It really was supposed to be a sharing among family. God never once threatened to curse them for not doing it until they went so far astray that they totally blew it off. It wasn’t just the principle that they kept back goods. All the love and affection was gone. All the fun was taken out of it. They abandoned their marriage to the Lord on every point. So he shut up the windows of heaven (rain clouds) and withheld the agreement to provide food for Jacob because the agreement had clearly been broken.
As Christians, we are called to offer our bodies as a sacrifice. We lay down our lives, die to ourselves, and claim nothing as our own. We are even called to a higher standard than 10%. The church in Acts gave all assets to share equally. How many tithers would be willing to do that?
Anyway, that’s my view on all of this.
|
|
PG4Him
Senior Member
Essay Moderator
Posts: 3,570
|
Post by PG4Him on Sept 3, 2019 9:55:15 GMT -5
There’s one more thing I’d like to point out on this topic... we read in Haggai that God condemned Israel for neglecting His house. But the temple was not one of His original demands. David made a gesture to bless the Lord above what was required. David initiated it. But once the temple was established, a covenant was locked in for Israel to maintain the temple. God honored David’s gesture by making a statute. So we see that humans can initiate an offer to God, He can establish it, and it can be passed down.
Why don’t preachers come out of Haggai that Christians are cursed with poverty when local church facilities are under-funded? That’s what Haggai says about Israel.
|
|
|
Post by John on Sept 3, 2019 10:01:52 GMT -5
So much of tithing doctrine relies on innuendo and hidden assumptions. We must believe that God somehow demanded 10% of people, and it was so hugely important that you’d be cursed without it, yet He didn’t make that clear in Genesis, and Abraham just “knew” it. Isaac just “knew” it. Jacob just “knew’ it. It was the best kept secret in Genesis. Then after Pentecost, it was the best kept secret in the New Testament. Everybody knew but no one wrote it down. Maybe, just maybe... Abraham was a personal friend of the Lord, he considered the Lord to be part of his family, and he blessed his dear friend by sharing the spoils of a fight God helped him win. Jacob earnestly desired to have such a connection with God, so he took it a step further by offering a tenth portion of everything in his home. Gestures like this are what led to statements like “Jacob have I loved.” These saints forged truly loving and sentimental relationships with God. It wasn’t rote obedience to them, but a sharing of the family table. As part of Israel’s marriage covenant with God, the sharing of household goods continued. We see from the passage about using silver coins to purchase a feast — it wasn’t a burdensome law God was holding over their heads. It really was supposed to be a sharing among family. God never once threatened to curse them for not doing it until they went so far astray that they totally blew it off. It wasn’t just the principle that they kept back goods. All the love and affection was gone. All the fun was taken out of it. They abandoned their marriage to the Lord on every point. So he shut up the windows of heaven (rain clouds) and withheld the agreement to provide food for Jacob because the agreement had clearly been broken. As Christians, we are called to offer our bodies as a sacrifice. We lay down our lives, die to ourselves, and claim nothing as our own. We are even called to a higher standard than 10%. The church in Acts gave all assets to share equally. How many tithers would be willing to do that? Anyway, that’s my view on all of this. All of that makes sense, yet leaves one major unanswered question. Why did Malachi make it such a hugely important thing, that if the people didn't tithe, they were cursed with a curse? It is not made clear in Genesis, but it certainly is in Malachi. He was the first one to call people thieves that didn't tithe. Do you have an answer for that, because that is the passage that everyone that teaches tithing turns to?
|
|
PG4Him
Senior Member
Essay Moderator
Posts: 3,570
|
Post by PG4Him on Sept 3, 2019 10:20:33 GMT -5
The old prophets gave strict judgments for everything Israel did wrong, and all the others, which don’t conveniently involve money, are ignored.
God gave Israel a writ of divorcement from the whole covenant for her disobedience — yet the church says Christians are incapable of losing their relationship with Him. Have you ever heard a preacher, even Pentecostal holiness, quote the writ divorcement against disobedient flocks? They may say your personal salvation is in jeopardy, but they won’t say disobedient churches are divorced.
Israel was sentenced to seventy years of reproach in Babylon. Have you ever heard a Christian preacher say we could be punished with seventy years of spiritual bondage?
Isaiah said God put children to be rulers of Israel in response to Israel’s insolence? Have you ever heard a Christian preacher say the church will shepherded by children as punishment for our collective insolence?
Why do we cherry-pick that one example from a dozen others?
|
|
|
Post by John on Sept 3, 2019 10:33:12 GMT -5
The old prophets gave strict judgments for everything Israel did wrong, and all the others, which don’t conveniently involve money, are ignored. God gave Israel a writ of divorcement from the whole covenant for her disobedience — yet the church says Christians are incapable of losing their relationship with Him. Have you ever heard a preacher, even Pentecostal holiness, quote the writ divorcement against disobedient flocks? They may say your personal salvation is in jeopardy, but they won’t say disobedient churches are divorced. Israel was sentenced to seventy years of reproach in Babylon. Have you ever heard a Christian preacher say we could be punished with seventy years of spiritual bondage? Isaiah said God put children to be rulers of Israel in response to Israel’s insolence? Have you ever heard a Christian preacher say the church will shepherded by children as punishment for our collective insolence? Why do we cherry-pick that one example from a dozen others? We know why they do this. They personally benefit from the tithes, but preaching against other sins will run off tithe payers that think they can purchase salvation with money. I was asking the same question. Do they preach against more obvious and weightier sins? Most don't. Most attack those that do.
|
|
PG4Him
Senior Member
Essay Moderator
Posts: 3,570
|
Post by PG4Him on Sept 3, 2019 10:44:01 GMT -5
Either all of the spiritual consequences levied against Israel somehow apply to us, or they don’t. If we want to go all in and say all the minor prophets are ensamples to us, I would be more willing to have that discussion. But in this modern doctrine, to say the tithe thing came over but nothing else came over, I can’t swallow that.
|
|
|
Post by John on Sept 3, 2019 10:52:49 GMT -5
Either all of the spiritual consequences levied against Israel somehow apply to us, or they don’t. If we want to go all in and say all the minor prophets are ensamples to us, I would be more willing to have that discussion. But in this modern doctrine, to say the tithe thing came over but nothing else came over, I can’t swallow that. We can't base our beliefs on the preachers of our day. Do you think those other things are examples to us or that they apply to us? Will God divorce a church? Yes. He threatened to in Revelation.
|
|
|
Post by John on Sept 3, 2019 11:01:59 GMT -5
Either all of the spiritual consequences levied against Israel somehow apply to us, or they don’t. If we want to go all in and say all the minor prophets are ensamples to us, I would be more willing to have that discussion. But in this modern doctrine, to say the tithe thing came over but nothing else came over, I can’t swallow that. One other thing. Some judgments were specifically to certain people, like 70 years in Babylonian captivity. Others might not have that judgment, but they may suffer different ones, like when Ninevah was threatened with complete destruction or all of Israel was scattered. Would God destroy an entire city today or allow a wicked nation to conquer one less wicked for their corruption today? Absolutely He would, so I really don't see the point here except for the fact we have covetous preachers in pulpits that do all they do for the love of money, and have no more regard for what is right and wrong than Judas Iscariot did when he got onto the woman for wasting oil that could have been sold to help the poor. He had the money bag and was a thief. These preachers have control of the tithes and offerings that come in and they are thieves.
|
|
|
Post by frienduff on Sept 3, 2019 11:04:28 GMT -5
The typical preacher today will say that under the New Covenant, the temple has been replaced by the local church. The priests are replaced by the Pastor. As such, whatever church you are a member of is your storehouse. They will say that you owe God 10 percent of whatever you make, and that you have to bring it to your local church or you are robbing God and cursed with a curse. They further claim that if you pay your tithes to the local church, God will open the windows of heaven and pour you out a blessing that there shall not be room enough to receive it. This is primarily what makes me question the modern tithe doctrine. We must accept fuzzy logic that pastors became Levites, church buildings replaced the temple, and seasonal tithe of crops became weekly tithe of all income. None of this is in Scripture. It may seem intuitive on the surface, but it was invented out of thin air. I have more respect for teachers who at least use the Abraham thing. But even then, when Hebrews says Abraham tithed to one greater than Levi, there’s a conspicuous absence of any call to continue the tradition. And examine the fruit of those whose focus is on telling them To tithe . THEY IN IT FOR THE MONEY MAN . DONT give them a dime , not even a penny . GIVE to those in need and never once give a cent to false ones whose fruits are as rotten figs . We will give ONLY unto the true ones and only unto those in need . Give ten , twenty or more percent if you so desire , ONLY GIVE NOTHING FALSE A CENT .
|
|
|
Post by frienduff on Sept 3, 2019 11:08:14 GMT -5
I understand that the word tithe means tenth or 10 percent, but why that amount? Why did Abraham give 10 percent to Melchizedek?
Because Abraham was told something . I cant find the exact scripture , BUT IT IS IN genesis . IT is written that Abraham Kept the law of GOD . AND YET their was no law written in stone WHEN THAT WAS WRITTEN . IT WAS FAITH , the law of GOD was ON HIS HEART already . And notice , Abraham gave , BUT TO WHO , NOT TO THOSE FALSE LEADERS . I aint giving them ONE CENT , they phonies who LOVE THAT MONEY and THEM DOLLARS But I will give them something and it will be a lot more than a tenth , I WILL GIVE THEM A MOUTHFUL OF SHARP REBUKE . THEY are phonies and they get not a dime . Give ten , twenty , thirty , forty , ninety or a hundred percent if one so does desire , ONLY DONT GIVE THEM A DIME . THEY Sit over churches for MONEY and teach all sorts of evil .
|
|
|
Post by John on Sept 3, 2019 11:19:22 GMT -5
This is primarily what makes me question the modern tithe doctrine. We must accept fuzzy logic that pastors became Levites, church buildings replaced the temple, and seasonal tithe of crops became weekly tithe of all income. None of this is in Scripture. It may seem intuitive on the surface, but it was invented out of thin air. I have more respect for teachers who at least use the Abraham thing. But even then, when Hebrews says Abraham tithed to one greater than Levi, there’s a conspicuous absence of any call to continue the tradition. And examine the fruit of those whose focus is on telling them To tithe . THEY IN IT FOR THE MONEY MAN . DONT give them a dime , not even a penny . GIVE to those in need and never once give a cent to false ones whose fruits are as rotten figs . We will give ONLY unto the true ones and only unto those in need . Give ten , twenty or more percent if you so desire , ONLY GIVE NOTHING FALSE A CENT .
Nobody should be giving to those crooks you are talking about. If we are to tithe, it is to the Lord's work. If there are good places to give, do so. If not, use the money yourself to spread the gospel as God enables you.
At this point, we are still looking at what the Bible says in this regard. I am just saying that if tithing is expect of God, we should be good stewards of the money God entrusted us with.
|
|
|
Post by Giller on Sept 3, 2019 11:32:08 GMT -5
I think we should go back to the Hebrews scripture, and explore what it is saying, verse by verse.
Heb 7:5-16 (5) And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham: (6) But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises. (7) And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better. (8) And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth. (9) And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. (10) For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him. (11) If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? (12) For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. (13) For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. (14) For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood. (15) And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, (16) Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
|
|
PG4Him
Senior Member
Essay Moderator
Posts: 3,570
|
Post by PG4Him on Sept 3, 2019 12:28:42 GMT -5
But according to the modern tithe doctrine, the curse of Malachi is now a spiritual phenomenon where you will be spiritually vexed by the powers of the heavens if you do not sow into the kingdom. Using Israel as our ensample makes all of these warnings and judgments into spiritual things. Thus the Babylonian captivity would not be a matter of a human affairs such as France being subjected to Germany, it would be a spiritual curse on God’s children.
Forget the false teachers. I’m not even asking about this issue along those lines. Even among good well intentioned pastors who teach on tithe, why does Malachi apply to us but not Haggai or Ezekiel?
|
|
|
Post by Giller on Sept 3, 2019 12:49:21 GMT -5
Heb 7:5-16 (5) And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham: (6) But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises. (7) And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better. (8) And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth. (9) And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. (10) For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him. (11) If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? (12) For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. (13) For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. (14) For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood. (15) And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, (16) Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
The part I find interesting, is it mentions in verse 9, that is that Levi, also, who receiveth tithes; payed tithes in Abraham.
And then it goes on to say the word "for", that is for he was yet in the loins of his father (Levi was yet in the loins of his father), when Melchisidec met Abraham.
Now we know that the word of God says that God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
We know that it was through Jacob that the 12 tribes came about, which Levi was one of them.
Yet the father mentioned in verse 10, is Abraham.
And we know that Levi did not yet exist when Abraham gave the tithe.
So obviously it is a spiritual meaning here about Levi giving a tithe in Abraham.
Heb 7:6 (6) But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.
Who had received the promises? Abraham, yet Melchizedek blessed him who had the promises, and we see that Melchizedek, gave Abraham, bread and wine.
Gen 14:18-19 (18) And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God. (19) And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:
Heb 7:7 (7) And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.
The less here refers to Abraham, and the better is Melchizedek, which points us to Jesus.
In essence, Jesus gave all of himself to us, not just a tenth, the wine represents his blood, and the bread represents his broken body, he gave his whole self to us.
|
|
|
Post by Giller on Sept 3, 2019 12:53:34 GMT -5
Now what is the spiritual meaning of Levi giving a tithe in Abraham, I am not exactly certain, but I do know that it is referring to a spiritual meaning.
|
|