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Post by John on Sept 3, 2019 17:51:25 GMT -5
what does this mean? 1Ti 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. 1Ti 5:18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward. It indicates to me that those that preach the gospel should live of the gospel. That can extend beyond the Pastor. I have no issue whatsoever with that. It would allow for more to get done, but how much should the ministers make? Should they make more money than a person would make at a normal job? What I mean is should a man become filthy rich off the gospel when he is making his money from tithes and offerings from people barely scraping by? I wouldn't feel bad about making a normal salary as a full time minister, similar to what I make driving a truck, but when you see Pastors flying around in private jets and living in mansions that cost 1.7 million dollars like the Pastor of Elevation Church does, I don't see how you can justify that. What do you think it means Cletus, and what do you consider as being too much?
I want to add this. I mean I wouldn't feel bad making that much if I was Pastor over a decent sized church where the work justified that kind of salary.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 3, 2019 18:18:53 GMT -5
what does this mean? 1Ti 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. 1Ti 5:18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward. Men who are true men of God deserve honor in every possible way. Materially, financially, relationally, and otherwise. A good minister should never have to pay for a hotel room because he should be welcome in any Christian’s home. He should be treated like a father, invited to dinner, given gifts on his birthday, everything. To me it’s not about writing a check to a pastor who barely knows my name. It’s about family. When I see an elder in the faith, I go out of my way to be a blessing to them. If they need snow shoveled out of their driveway, it should be done for them. If they need help to pay a bill, someone should help. Just as if they were my mom or dad. Of course this honor is reserved for true saints who deserve it. Paul said it goes to elders who rule well. The standard to be an elder was extremely high for them. Anyone who qualified for the position would been like a second father to the flock.
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Cletus
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Post by Cletus on Sept 3, 2019 18:35:11 GMT -5
what does this mean? 1Ti 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. 1Ti 5:18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward. It indicates to me that those that preach the gospel should live of the gospel. That can extend beyond the Pastor. I have no issue whatsoever with that. It would allow for more to get done, but how much should the ministers make? Should they make more money than a person would make at a normal job? What I mean is should a man become filthy rich off the gospel when he is making his money from tithes and offerings from people barely scraping by? I wouldn't feel bad about making a normal salary as a full time minister, similar to what I make driving a truck, but when you see Pastors flying around in private jets and living in mansions that cost 1.7 million dollars like the Pastor of Elevation Church does, I don't see how you can justify that. What do you think it means Cletus, and what do you consider as being too much?
I want to add this. I mean I wouldn't feel bad making that much if I was Pastor over a decent sized church where the work justified that kind of salary.
God told me this passage today, along with others. i couldnt make heads or tails of it so i asked. as i meditated on this verse today i thought of this thread and came home and asked. i like what PG4Him said, I like what you said to but what she said fits with my circumstance to a T. I know what to do now and understand my instructions. the double honor is my work. i dont want to say to much as it will probably draw away from this thread. but i am good now. at least on most of it.
edit: what you said fits too. thats another part. there is still a small part i am not understanding but i am sure it will come to me.
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Post by John on Sept 3, 2019 18:47:44 GMT -5
It indicates to me that those that preach the gospel should live of the gospel. That can extend beyond the Pastor. I have no issue whatsoever with that. It would allow for more to get done, but how much should the ministers make? Should they make more money than a person would make at a normal job? What I mean is should a man become filthy rich off the gospel when he is making his money from tithes and offerings from people barely scraping by? I wouldn't feel bad about making a normal salary as a full time minister, similar to what I make driving a truck, but when you see Pastors flying around in private jets and living in mansions that cost 1.7 million dollars like the Pastor of Elevation Church does, I don't see how you can justify that. What do you think it means Cletus, and what do you consider as being too much?
I want to add this. I mean I wouldn't feel bad making that much if I was Pastor over a decent sized church where the work justified that kind of salary.
God told me this passage today, along with others. i couldnt make heads or tails of it so i asked. as i meditated on this verse today i thought of this thread and came home and asked. i like what PG4Him said, I like what you said to but what she said fits with my circumstance to a T. I know what to do now and understand my instructions. the double honor is my work. i dont want to say to much as it will probably draw away from this thread. but i am good now. at least on most of it.
edit: what you said fits too. thats another part. there is still a small part i am not understanding but i am sure it will come to me.
God spoke that same thing to me too yesterday, but it was personal, and I knew what it meant to me. Thanks for sharing that Cletus.
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Post by Giller on Sept 4, 2019 9:51:14 GMT -5
Heb 7:5-16 (5) And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham: (6) But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises. (7) And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better. (8) And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth. (9) And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. (10) For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him. (11) If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? (12) For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. (13) For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. (14) For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood. (15) And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, (16) Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
After thinking upon it somewhat, how did Levi pay tithes in Abraham?
Obviously not in person, for he did not exist back then, but it seems to be using the person of Abraham, in that when Abraham paid tithes to Melchizedek, which seems to have been a one time act, for that is the only evidence we see; in this one act of giving tithes, God uses is it as a metaphor, so to show that, through Abraham's act, in some fashion, it enabled Levi to be considered as giving tithes to Melchizedek, because he came from Abraham's loins.
So there must have been something special to this tide, and this tithe was given from the spoils of war, but not the Levitical tithe.
And Melchizedek was said to be a priest of the most high God, and is mentioned by many as being Jesus.
Here is an interesting scripture:
Gen 14:18-20 (18) And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God. (19) And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth: (20) And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.
Melchizedek mentions this: blessed be the most high God, which had delivered thine enemies into thy hand.
So there was mention of victory over the enemies.
Here is what I read at a website, I do not know if I would say this, this strongly, or if I 100% agree, but nevertheless, it is very interesting, and it is like Abraham (then known as Abram) knew to bless this priest, and give him a tenth of his spoils, and it seems to have been in conjunction with God giving him victory over his enemies.
It seems that the tithe had to do with some type of acknowledgment towards victory over enemies.
Here is the quote:
(https://www.borntowin.net/articles/why-did-abraham-tithe/)
(...Melchizedek declared that the victory was from God. For Abram not to tithe at this point would have been tantamount to denying that God had given him the victory. In tithing, Abraham did obeisance (worshiped) before the priest of God and tithed as the means of acknowledging God as the source of every good and perfect gift. Jacob, in his vow to God acknowledged the same thing when he said, “Of all that you give me, I will surely give the tenth unto you.” He foreshadowed what God told Moses:...)
And I am not necessarily vouching for this website, because I really do not know what they are all about, just found some interesting points in this certain quote.
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Post by Giller on Sept 4, 2019 12:15:35 GMT -5
Other interesting verses are found in the book of Galatians.
Gal 2:11-12 (11) But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. (12) For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
Gal 2:14 (14) But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
So in some manner or form, Peter was compelling the Gentiles to live as do the Jews.
Then verse 16 says this:
Gal 2:16 (16) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
So obviously it had something to do with the law of Moses, that Peter was trying to compel the Gentiles to live as do the Jews.
Possibly clean and unclean meats, and who knows what else, maybe circumcision.
No doubt it was something concerning the ceremonial law.
Then we go to chapter 3.
Gal 3:10 (10) For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Then we go further on.
Gal 3:18-19 (18) For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. (19) Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
Gal 3:24-26 (24) Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. (25) But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. (26) For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Yes the law here does refer to the moral law, but also to the ceremonial law, both was like a schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, for the moral law showed men that they were sinners in need of a savior, and the ceremonial law, thought things to men concerning the coming Christ, it pointed to the coming Christ.
After the cross, you see no mention of tithing anywhere, but you do see mention of giving, was tithing like a type of schoolmaster in a certain form, to teach men to give, but under the New covenant, it is the Holy Spirit that guides our giving?
The word schoolmaster means this in the Strong's:
(Strong's concordance)
(G3807
παιδαγωγός paidagōgos
pahee-dag-o-gos'
From G3816 and a reduplication form of G71; a boy leader, that is, a servant whose office it was to take the children to school; (by implication [figuratively] a tutor [“paedagogue”]): - instructor, schoolmaster. Total KJV occurrences: 3)
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Post by Giller on Sept 4, 2019 12:24:51 GMT -5
Under New Covenant times, we are definitely called to be givers, and to provide the needs of people.
Leaders who lead well, in some form or manner are worthy of double honor.
And they are worthy of their hire.
We need to care for our leaders, and each other.
Now I am not against a preacher having a wage, but neither am I against a preacher not seeking to have a wage.
And needs need to be provided for.
But there are some preachers that unless they have a wage, they will not preach to you.
That attitude is not right.
If you are called , wage or not, walk in your calling and care for the sheep.
And of course, there are some churches who met the needs of the apostle Paul, and yet at the same time he sought not to be a burden to any church and had a side job of being a tent maker.
Let each man walk in his calling whatever it be (leadership or not), and let us care for each other.
I think in the end, the church just simply needs to care for each other.
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Post by Giller on Sept 4, 2019 12:36:42 GMT -5
And in truth, if the Levitical priesthood is no longer under new covenant times, which in truth it is no longer, then obviously tithing to the Levitical priesthood has to be done away, why? Because the Levitical priesthood no longer exists.
You cannot tithe to something that does not exists.
Now should we give to the genuine work of God today, well of course!!!
And if people just encouraged people to give for the right reason, and seek to be lead by the Holy Spirit, and the church genuinely cared for each other, then things would go a lot more smoothly.
But most preaches today is about using the tithe function in the realm of greed, or supporting ministries, not for the betterment of the saints, but for preachers to get richer, many preaches are based on that.
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Post by John on Sept 4, 2019 15:00:59 GMT -5
Under New Covenant times, we are definitely called to be givers, and to provide the needs of people. Leaders who lead well, in some form or manner are worthy of double honor. And they are worthy of their hire. We need to care for our leaders, and each other. Now I am not against a preacher having a wage, but neither am I against a preacher not seeking to have a wage. And needs need to be provided for. But there are some preachers that unless they have a wage, they will not preach to you. That attitude is not right. If you are called , wage or not, walk in your calling and care for the sheep. And of course, there are some churches who met the needs of the apostle Paul, and yet at the same time he sought not to be a burden to any church and had a side job of being a tent maker. Let each man walk in his calling whatever it be (leadership or not), and let us care for each other. I think in the end, the church just simply needs to care for each other. We are really talking about different things here. With regard to Preachers getting a salary, because the Bible says that they that preach the gospel should live of the gospel, that is what I believe. With regard to only preaching, praying for people, doing anything for someone that pays tithes to their church, that is disgusting to me. I would never tell anyone that I will not pray for them if they don't pay tithes. I would never tell anyone that doesn't pay tithes they shouldn't come back. I would never suggest that I won't preach or teach someone unless I am given a salary. The gospel is free. It cost Christ his life, but he freely gave to us. Freely we have received, freely we share it. It is not my gospel. It is the gospel of Jesus Christ. Who am I to sell it? I am not opposed to people making profits off of books and labor they do, but anything I would write in a book or dvd or cd that might have a charge, I would give to you for free on YouTube, in posts, or in answer to your questions.
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Post by Giller on Sept 5, 2019 10:47:10 GMT -5
Under New Covenant times, we are definitely called to be givers, and to provide the needs of people. Leaders who lead well, in some form or manner are worthy of double honor. And they are worthy of their hire. We need to care for our leaders, and each other. Now I am not against a preacher having a wage, but neither am I against a preacher not seeking to have a wage. And needs need to be provided for. But there are some preachers that unless they have a wage, they will not preach to you. That attitude is not right. If you are called , wage or not, walk in your calling and care for the sheep. And of course, there are some churches who met the needs of the apostle Paul, and yet at the same time he sought not to be a burden to any church and had a side job of being a tent maker. Let each man walk in his calling whatever it be (leadership or not), and let us care for each other. I think in the end, the church just simply needs to care for each other. We are really talking about different things here. With regard to Preachers getting a salary, because the Bible says that they that preach the gospel should live of the gospel, that is what I believe. With regard to only preaching, praying for people, doing anything for someone that pays tithes to their church, that is disgusting to me. I would never tell anyone that I will not pray for them if they don't pay tithes. I would never tell anyone that doesn't pay tithes they shouldn't come back. I would never suggest that I won't preach or teach someone unless I am given a salary. The gospel is free. It cost Christ his life, but he freely gave to us. Freely we have received, freely we share it. It is not my gospel. It is the gospel of Jesus Christ. Who am I to sell it? I am not opposed to people making profits off of books and labor they do, but anything I would write in a book or dvd or cd that might have a charge, I would give to you for free on YouTube, in posts, or in answer to your questions.
For myself, concerning they that preach the gospel should live by the gospel, I am not so certain that it automatically means receiving a salary, but I do know this that when Paul went from city to city God always provided his needs in one form or another, God provided for his needs as Paul preached the gospel. Now I am not against preachers receiving wages, we all need to pay our bills, but I do know of other preachers who receive no salary, yet their needs get provided. Myself, I am on middle ground on this issue, I am not against preachers receiving wages, nor am I against preachers not receiving a salary, as long as their needs are met. I know there are some who are completely against preachers receiving wages, I do not want to subscribe to that.
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Post by Giller on Sept 5, 2019 12:16:09 GMT -5
I just finished talking to my friend, and he will send these scriptures to me about tithing under the old, and how that if given in money it was more than 10 percent.
And even a good sermon he listened to.
The law was a schoolmaster to us, it showed us many things, the ceremonial holy days pointed to Christ, and taught things concerning Christ, but now Christ has come and we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Tithing taught men to give, but now we are no longer under a schoolmaster, now we have Christ in us, we have been born again, and the Spirit of life now guides us, the word has been made alive in our hearts.
Tithing has been done away with, with the Levitical priesthood being done away.
And as me and my friend mentioned, if people look to tithing for giving under new covenant times, it can prevent them from seeking the Lord of what he wants them to give, which in some cases might be more than 10 percent.
Here is a good scripture:
Gal 5:18 (18) But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 5, 2019 12:41:02 GMT -5
1 Corinthians 9 seems to be an example of something lawful that Paul chose to forfeit. While God has ordained that ministers may lawfully expect material goods from the flock, Paul felt strongly that lawful compulsion was not a good reason to demand it, and he erred on the side of grace when a flock didn’t have it to give.
When Christians blow their money on everything but the kingdom, and then they complain that a minister dares to ask for a love offering, that’s not right. If we have it to give, we should focus on the kingdom first. Don’t give to a secular outfit like the Red Cross while your Christian brethren can’t pay their bills. Honor those who shepherd you by making sure their needs are met. When people say “God will provide” it doesn’t usually mean money will appear from nowhere. It usually means a benefactor will be raised up to give something. God will find a way to meet a need with or without you, but if you refuse to be His vessel, He will know that He can’t count on you.
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Post by Giller on Sept 5, 2019 12:44:47 GMT -5
1 Corinthians 9 seems to be an example of something lawful that Paul chose to forfeit. While God has ordained that ministers may lawfully expect material goods from the flock, Paul felt strongly that lawful compulsion was not a good reason to demand it, and he erred on the side of grace when a flock didn’t have it to give. When Christians blow their money on everything but the kingdom, and then they complain that a minister dares to ask for a love offering, that’s not right. If we have it to give, we should focus on the kingdom first. Don’t give to a secular outfit like the Red Cross while your Christian brethren can’t pay their bills. Honor those who shepherd you by making sure their needs are met. When people say “God will provide” it doesn’t usually mean money will appear from nowhere. It usually means a benefactor will be raised up to give something. God will find a way to meet a need with or without you, but if you refuse to be His vessel, He will know that He can’t count on you. Agreed.
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Cletus
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Post by Cletus on Sept 5, 2019 17:13:37 GMT -5
What God said to me earlier this week about double honor. I know God aint playing about that. I aint saying we got to pay a tithe, but He sure did make a believer out of me. Its his order.
We must obey our instructions to the letter. my work i am doing right now is remodeling a house for a pastor, who is also an elder in the church. God has told me twice in two weeks the scripture about the laborer is worthy of his wage... once to me concerning his provision to me when i had no way to make ends meet. but i did not do without. i say again, i got mine. the second time god spoke it to me was concerning my boss... he dont know it yet but this house is going to be a wage for his labor in Him. He is going to be well pleased in how this ends. and God already showed me He already has a buyer. the money is in the bank, so to speak. my job right now is to do what no other in our circle can, or would do. God gave me instructions, and i told Him i do not have the means to do so... but you are faithful... i do not understand this, but i will do it. and i did it yesterday. Today, the door opened for me to make ends meet.
God expects us to give double honor. God expects us to do what ever for those over us... who rule well. this is Gods order. forget the tithe... the tenth. IT IS ALL HIS. If Father says give it, or do it... then make it happen. you may not like it. you may not be able to smile big while your doing it. but aint there a parable about two sons... one said yea i will go work the fields but he didnt and the other said no but repented and went? you know the parable. Just do whatever God says. His will is so deeply ingrained in our life, in our labor, in our employment. there is a word... employment... check this out...
Php 4:19 But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus.
lets look at the word need:
G5532 χρεία chreia khri'-ah From the base of G5530 or G5534; employment, that is, an affair; also (by implication) occasion, demand, requirement or destitution: - business, lack, necessary (-ity), need (-ful), use, want. Total KJV occurrences: 49
let me say this plainly... either we work for God, or not. either we serve Him, or not. Either everything we have is His ... or not.
for where your heart is, there will be your treasure also.
Php 2:1 If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies, Php 2:2 Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. Php 2:3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. Php 2:4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
The servant is not greater than The Master.
The scripture tells us its better for us to suffer for doing good.. than to suffer for doing evil. seems to me either way suffering will occur. and I do not think our God is above us suffering. Sometimes we may be told to give more than a tenth. give more than money. give until it hurts even.
this is what God has shown me. i dont believe in a tenth. i am all in.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 5, 2019 18:25:00 GMT -5
Amen Cletus. Me too!!
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