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Post by Giller on Sept 6, 2019 0:36:46 GMT -5
I think double honor is in many ways, not just money.
Here is a quote:
(Albert Barnes)
(...Be counted worthy of double honour - Of double respect; that is, of a high degree of respect; of a degree of respect becoming their age and office; compare 1Th_5:12-13. From the quotation which is made in 1Ti_5:18, in relation to this subject, it would seem probable that the apostle had some reference also to their support, or to what was necessary for their maintenance. ...)
I think it can also be in helping them out were needed as well.
So the wage thing I have no problem with.
In some cases it might be necessary and in other cases it may not.
The thing is, is God provides the needs, and let us obey him in what he tells us to do.
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Post by Giller on Sept 6, 2019 0:38:54 GMT -5
Trust me I am not afraid to help people out, and even true pastor's who rule well, I have done so, and I will leave that at that.
God is good.
And I pray there is no assumptions being made, let us be careful in our judgment towards one another, that is if it is occurring, because we might just be wrong.
We have even helped out a pastor, which no one else was helping him out with monetary needs, he was the pastor which fed us.
I am not saying this to boast, just to give an example, so in case people are just assuming things.
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Post by Giller on Sept 6, 2019 1:01:59 GMT -5
I do not want to force myself to believe something because so and so says so, or believes it, or it garners the most favor, i want to be certain in my heart in a total way that it is saying this or that.
I want to be fully assured of it.
And I know that the office of a pastor is a calling, and not a job per say, and that they are worthy of their hire, and that God is the one that provides for them in one way or another, and of course through the help of the brethren in some form or way.
Now the argument might be whether they should have a salary or not, well I do know that they should have their needs taken care of, that I do know.
God blesses in many ways, sometimes through food, and of course through money and so on, it depends on what the need is.
And if we are able to help out in a situation, we ought to do so.
So for me it is, if the need requires a salary of some kind, so be it, if it does not so be it.
I do not want to make a doctrine out of it, to were it is automatically this or that.
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Post by Giller on Sept 6, 2019 1:10:15 GMT -5
The word honour, is really a type of respect, which can be shown in many ways, whether through money, whether through some type of good esteem and not worship, through support of some kind, and so on.
It is not one size fits all.
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PG4Him
Senior Member
Essay Moderator
Posts: 3,570
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 6, 2019 8:30:32 GMT -5
Seems to me that a flock would have liberty to set up what works for them. If a flock decides to give a salary to pastor, good for them. If another flock focuses their efforts on in-kind donations, that’s okay too.
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Post by Giller on Sept 6, 2019 8:53:00 GMT -5
I am not saying this in the way that you think Candance.
It is not what works for a flock, it is if the need is there, some pastors do not want a salary, and do not need one, for they receive money in other ways.
Some pastors actually do not want a salary.
There are some small flocks, at the moment who would possibly not be able to give out a full salary, because there is not enough people, or people are just poor.
We have to do with what we have, and Paul sought to be all to all, he did not demand a salary even though he was worthy of his hire.
And Paul was actually a tent maker, and received money through that means as well.
Do all pastors need to be full time pastors?
Can they have another job on the side?
God did not object to Paul being a tent maker, so I do not want to make up my own rule and object to something that is not mentioned as an objection in the word.
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Post by Giller on Sept 6, 2019 8:54:58 GMT -5
We have to think of the whole counsel of the word of God.
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Post by Giller on Sept 6, 2019 8:56:40 GMT -5
Not every flock is the exact same duplicate.
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PG4Him
Senior Member
Essay Moderator
Posts: 3,570
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 6, 2019 9:01:11 GMT -5
Giller I can’t tell if you agree with me or not...? I’m just saying there’s no one rule for every flock, and that each flock should work with its shepherds to come up with a plan. It may involve salary, parsonage, donations, whatever... if the shepherd is happy with it and the flock can afford it, everyone wins.
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Post by Giller on Sept 6, 2019 9:04:20 GMT -5
I leave it in God's hands of whether a pastor should be full time without a side job, or be a pastor with a side job, I know either way, it is do able, and both can be effective.
God mentions no specific rules about it, then I do not want to mention specific rules about it.
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Post by Giller on Sept 6, 2019 9:05:27 GMT -5
Giller I can’t tell if you agree with me or not...? I’m just saying there’s no one rule for every flock, and that each flock should work with its shepherds to come up with a plan. It may involve salary, parsonage, donations, whatever... if the shepherd is happy with it and the flock can afford it, everyone wins. Oh ok I see were you are coming from, I though it was said in a different way. So yes I agree.
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Post by Giller on Sept 6, 2019 11:20:05 GMT -5
Here are very good points that I have found in an article, and I am just mentioning some of them, to provoke to thought:
(https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/7-reasons-christians-not-required-to-tithe/)
(...Tithing in the Old Testament
What does the Old Testament say about tithing? Abraham gave a tenth of his spoils of war to Melchizedek (Gen. 14:20), and Hebrews appeals to this account to support the superiority of Melchizedek’s priesthood over Levi’s (Heb. 7:4–10). God met Jacob at Bethel and promised him covenant blessings; the patriarch promised God a tenth of everything granted him (Gen. 28:22).
A tenth of Israel’s seed, fruit, and flocks were given to the Lord (Lev. 27:30–32; Deut. 14:22–24; cf. 2 Chron. 31:5–6; Neh. 13:5, 12). The people gave a tenth to the Levites to support them (Num. 18:21–24; cf. Neh. 10:38; 12:44), and the Levites, in turn, were to give a tenth to the chief priest (Num. 18:25–28). Those who didn’t tithe were threatened with a curse, while those who did tithe were promised blessing (Mal. 3:8–10).
Though we might assume Old Testament Israel gave a total of 10 percent, it’s actually difficult to discern how much was given. We can’t linger over details in this short article, but some think the Israelites gave 14 tithes over seven years; others believe they gave 12. Regardless, when we add the required tithes together, the amount certainly exceeded 10 percent. In fact, the number was probably somewhere around 20 percent per year....
...Why Tithing Is Not Required Today
There are seven decisive reasons for saying Christians are not required to tithe.
1. Believers are no longer under the Mosaic covenant (Rom. 6:14–15; 7:5–6; Gal. 3:15–4:7; 2 Cor. 3:4–18). ...
...2. The examples of Abraham and Jacob are not normative patterns. ...
...3. Tithes were given to the Levites and priests, but there are no Levites and priests in the new covenant. ...
...4. The tithe is tied to the land Israel received under the old covenant. ...
...5. If tithing is required today, how much should we give? ...
...6. When Jesus affirmed the tithe, it was before the dawn of the new covenant....
...7. Nowhere is tithing mentioned when commands to give generously are found in the New Testament. ...
...Give Generously
Even though tithing isn’t required today, it does not follow that believers should hoard their possessions....
...Since God is to be our treasure, believers are to give generously and freely....)
Now here is a scripture of the Levites supporting the high priest:
Num 18:26-28 (26) Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up an heave offering of it for the LORD, even a tenth part of the tithe. (27) And this your heave offering shall be reckoned unto you, as though it were the corn of the threshingfloor, and as the fulness of the winepress. (28) Thus ye also shall offer an heave offering unto the LORD of all your tithes, which ye receive of the children of Israel; and ye shall give thereof the LORD'S heave offering to Aaron the priest.
And I believe that we ought to support our pastors, and the flock, and that it is God's will that we do so.
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Post by Giller on Sept 6, 2019 12:00:55 GMT -5
This is a bit off topic I guess, but here are a few scriptures side by side: 1Th 5:12-14 (12) And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you; (13) And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves. (14) Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men.
| 1Ti 5:17-18 (17) Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. (18) For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.
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Does the word reward, only have a connection to money here? Or can the reward, be many things that God blesses these men with? I do know that we ought to count them double honor, and esteem them highly in the Lord. I my mind, honour goes far deeper than just money, can some rewards be spiritual blessings also, that the brethren may bless him with? I am not trying to get away from the money thing, just exploring all avenues of what it might mean. Can someone help out in certain areas to were the pastor has more time to study the word? And there are times were we blessed this certain pastor with money, and other times we blessed him with food, or groceries. And in some cases, the first thing to pop up in a persons mind concerning reward, is money, and some just think of only money as reward.
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