Cletus
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Post by Cletus on Aug 30, 2019 20:12:39 GMT -5
there are so many teachers of the bible saying Jesus abolished the law. well what did Jesus say about this in matthew 5?
17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
now it seems these bible teachers are calling Jesus Christ, aka The Word of God a big fat liar. now these bible teachers seek to nullify Jesus' own words with these type scriptures:
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
G1378 δόγμα dogma dog'-mah From the base of G1380; a law (civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical): - decree, ordinance. Total KJV occurrences: 5
now I looked the word up in the greek for ordinances(above), and it is referring to ceremony stuff, ceremonial. The purpose of this thread is to discuss what exactly these ordinances are... and what they are not. i think this is a very worthy topic to discuss and know backwards and forwards so we will know how to respond to those heretics who call obedience legalism. best i can tell is that the ceremonial laws had to do with ceremonial cleanliness. dont touch this, dont touch that, do not eat that, and it had to do with being able to participate in temple worship. jews and gentiles could not really do this due to ceremonial laws. they could not even really eat together because of how things had to be prepared... kosher. but the veil of the temple has been torn, top to bottom... we no longer have to go thru a priest because we can go directly to The High Priest... and we, all of we, are a royal priesthood and our bodies are Gods temple now. so... i cant find anywhere it says God's MORAL laws were abolished... and in fact that would go against who He Is. So my general question is... what do you know about commands/laws of ordinances, what do you know about any thing pertaining to what i have shared here? anything about different laws, and even if you think it does not relate but it comes to mind i ask please, share it.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Aug 30, 2019 20:41:59 GMT -5
“Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal:
“The Lord knows those who are His,” and,
“Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”” - 2 Timothy 2:19“For all who do such things,
all who behave unrighteously, are an abomination to the Lord your God.” - Deuteronomy 25:16
“...we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things.” - Romans 2:2
“Therefore do not be partakers with them.” - Ephesians 5:7
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Post by Giller on Aug 30, 2019 22:12:49 GMT -5
Here are definitions, concerning the words moral, ceremonial, symbol.
(Webster's dictionary)
(Moral
MOR'AL, a. [L. moralis, from mos, moris, manner.]
1. Relating to the practice, manners or conduct of men as social beings in relation to each other, and with reference to right and wrong. The word moral is applicable to actions that are good or evil, virtuous or vicious, and has reference to the law of God as the standard by which their character is to be determined....)
(Webster's dictionary)
(LAW
14. Ceremonial law, the Mosaic institutions which prescribe the external rites and ceremonies to be observed by the Jews, as distinct from the moral precepts, which are of perpetual obligation.)
(Webster's dictionary)
(Symbol
SYM'BOL, n. [L. symbolum; Gr. with, and to throw; to compare.]
1. The sign or representation of any moral thing by the images or properties of natural things. Thus the lion is the symbol of courage; the lamb is the symbol of meekness or patience. Symbols are of various kinds, as types, enigmas, parables, fables, allegories, emblems, hieroglyphics, &c.)
(Meriam-webster)
(Definition of ceremonial
1 : marked by, involved in, or belonging to ceremony : stressing careful attention to form and detail ceremonial rites
2 : having no real power or influence his new position is largely ceremonial)
In the ceremonial laws, which God had them obey under Old covenant times, they were emblematic, symbolic, pointing to the true, but not being the very thing.
But the moral law itself, is not emblematic, it shows us right from wrong according to what God says it is.
But are ceremonial laws themselves wrong? No.
For we now have some under the New Covenant.
And here is what the word says:
Col 2:14-17 (14) Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; (15) And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. (16) Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: (17) Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
In the Old testament there is a scripture that shows what these handwritten ordinances that was against them was, which pointed to old testament ceremonial laws, which were put on the side of the ark, and not inside the ark.
So do not judge concerning the keeping of the Old testament meat ordinances, such as clean and unclean meats, drink ordinances such as the Nazarite vow, and the Holy days that they kept under old covenant times, such as the day of atonement, Passover and so on, for they are no longer obligatory.
Concerning the sabbath day, in the KJV bible, it does not say do not judge concerning the sabbath day singular, but rather concerning the days (plural) they kept their sabbaths on, under old covenant times.
All 10 were put in the ark, and the blood of lambs were put on the mercy seat, which you could say covered their sins, or the breaking of the 10 which were in the ark, which through Christ, now he washes our sins totally away.
2Co 3:3 (3) Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
The things that were written on tables of stone by the hand of God, are now written in our hearts, but in a living way, so we could be a testimony of God's living law.
A living epistle.
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Post by Giller on Aug 30, 2019 22:32:53 GMT -5
And is it just a coincidence that many perverted bibles say this:
E.S.V.
Col 2:16 (16) Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.
N.I.V.
Col 2:16 16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.
Yet the King James bible says this:
K.J.V.
Col 2:16 (16) Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
The KJV refers to specific (the) sabbath days plural.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Aug 31, 2019 9:03:20 GMT -5
As I understand it, the moral parts of the law were universal to all cultures and peoples. This is why Paul said the Gentiles had God’s law on their hearts. Importantly, he also said they were a law unto themselves. Now if Jews will be governed by the law bestowed to them, the same goes for us. Even the unbelieving sinners will be justly condemned after death because they know they broke the law of righteousness. Each man has a conscience to govern him, so there’s no excuse to say you didn’t know you disobeyed it. Pagans who revere great philosophers will one day give an account of why they cared so much about a supernatural law from a God they rejected.
Paul never said the Gentiles were free from the law on their own hearts. He never said their conscience was made irrelevant. And he never even said they were totally free from circumcision — he said their hearts must be circumcised. The same heart where their law was written! The law they had as a law to themselves was circumcised in Christ to spare it from the flesh. Only when our conscience is freed from flesh and submitted to Christ can it escape the condemnation of the flesh.
That was the purpose of the ordinances and the laws of separation in the Torah. They were physical manifestations of the need to remove ourselves from this world. The Levites were removed from the sons of Israel, as we Christians now are removed from our natural kinfolk. The priests bore the ark of the covenant, we bear the cross of Christ. They ate a kosher diet, we have the pure milk of the word. Paul said these material ordinances were shadows of a spiritual reality. So we Christians do indeed have the law on every point, but we have it in spirit.
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Cletus
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Post by Cletus on Aug 31, 2019 9:07:15 GMT -5
And is it just a coincidence that many perverted bibles say this: E.S.V.Col 2:16 (16) Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.N.I.V.
Col 2:16 16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.
Yet the King James bible says this: K.J.V.Col 2:16 (16) Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
The KJV refers to specific (the) sabbath days plural.
VERIFIED:
I looked up this verse in the kjv... the word days is in italics... however, it appears that the greek word for sabbath here is plural and refers to all the sabbath S
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2019 9:08:35 GMT -5
Romans 7:14 For we know that the Law is spiritual..... (need to really grasp what that means)...
The Law is spiritual but many don't see or use it that way, ie, through faith....as John gave some examples on another thread in the life of David who was a man after God's heart and pursued the law by faith. Without faith it is impossible to please God. The Pharisees were all about the letter of the law and the scripture says they did not pursue it by faith (faith being of the Spirit, not of our own). The Law is good if it is used properly, ie, through faith/Spirit, not the letter which is death.
Jesus in cursing the fig tree was essentially cursing the letter of the law which is from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. (I think SELF-righteousness might be the fruit of it.) And the time for it to fully bear its evil fruit is coming in the end, because that tree is antichrist.
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Cletus
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Post by Cletus on Aug 31, 2019 9:22:03 GMT -5
As I understand it, the moral parts of the law were universal to all cultures and peoples. This is why Paul said the Gentiles had God’s law on their hearts. Importantly, he also said they were a law unto themselves. Now if Jews will be governed by the law bestowed to them, the same goes for us. Even the unbelieving sinners will be justly condemned after death because they know they broke the law of righteousness. Each man has a conscience to govern him, so there’s no excuse to say you didn’t know you disobeyed it. Pagans who revere great philosophers will one day give an account of why they cared so much about a supernatural law from a God they rejected. Paul never said the Gentiles were free from the law on their own hearts. He never said their conscience was made irrelevant. And he never even said they were totally free from circumcision — he said their hearts must be circumcised. The same heart where their law was written! The law they had as a law to themselves was circumcised in Christ to spare it from the flesh. Only when our conscience is freed from flesh and submitted to Christ can it escape the condemnation of the flesh. That was the purpose of the ordinances and the laws of separation in the Torah. They were physical manifestations of the need to remove ourselves from this world. The Levites were removed from the sons of Israel, as we Christians now are removed from our natural kinfolk. The priests bore the ark of the covenant, we bear the cross of Christ. They ate a kosher diet, we have the pure milk of the word. Paul said these material ordinances were shadows of a spiritual reality. So we Christians do indeed have the law on every point, but we have it in spirit. THIS: They were physical manifestations of the need to remove ourselves from this world.
and i will even take it a step further according to Gods moral laws:
God did tell Jonah to go to Nineveh and tell them to repent. And Jonah was angry when God didnt pour out destruction on the enemies of the hebrews because they repented. And i do use this as a reference because its OT. God wasnt pleased with the hebrews becoming nationalistic in being Gods people... He desired them to take the message to the world.
The Spiritual reality you speak on is not just on the law, but in every way of life, and even of our savior concerning the NT.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Aug 31, 2019 9:27:58 GMT -5
Jonah doesn’t say the Ninevites all joined the Jewish system when they repented. They didn’t turn Assyria into a Jewish state. They got back on track with where God wanted them to be.
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Post by Giller on Aug 31, 2019 9:38:53 GMT -5
And is it just a coincidence that many perverted bibles say this: E.S.V.Col 2:16 (16) Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.N.I.V.
Col 2:16 16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.
Yet the King James bible says this: K.J.V.Col 2:16 (16) Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
The KJV refers to specific (the) sabbath days plural.
VERIFIED:
I looked up this verse in the kjv... the word days is in italics... however, it appears that the greek word for sabbath here is plural and refers to all the sabbath SYep it refers to all the days they kept their sabbaths on, which they had many.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2019 9:55:50 GMT -5
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Post by Giller on Aug 31, 2019 11:52:51 GMT -5
Well there are many things to think about concerning the 4th commandment.
Many like to deny that the 4th commandment was moral, yet it is in the list of God's moral laws, which the blood was put on the mercy seat, yet all 10 being in the ark, not one left aside.
The 4th commandment is indeed a moral law, yet it has ceremonial aspects to it as well, for it is also mentioned in the ceremonial laws.
The fact of working 6 days, and having one day to rest from our weekly labor, is a moral law.
But the certain things the priests did on the sabbath, those were ceremonial laws, which there are other ceremonial laws as well.
Even the 7th day itself was ceremonial, in that you would remember how God created the world in six days and rested on the 7th.
But having a day of rest itself is very moral.
Many will say that now it is to rest in Jesus, and yes that is totally true that we rest spiritually in the finished work of Christ.
But even under the Old Covenant, they had different types of rest, such as rest from their enemies through Joshua, yet even though they had this type of rest, it did not eliminate the need for a day of rest.
Well today, why does resting in Christ, automatically constitute, a day of rest being eliminated, when there is nowhere in the bible that shows that God changed how is 4th commandment functions, were is this elimination verse?
Even in Isaiah 65 I believe, it mentions us keeping a sabbath while holding on to the New covenant.
And then there is this scripture, which is a prophecy of what happens when we become born again, which it has Israel in mind, but nevertheless pointing to the New Covenant:
Jer 31:33 (33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
The moral law which was in Jeremiah's time was to be written in the hearts of Israel, when they would receive Christ, and this scripture is mentioned in the New Testament, and it shows in the New testament, a relation to the New Testament towards it.
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Post by John on Aug 31, 2019 12:20:56 GMT -5
And is it just a coincidence that many perverted bibles say this: E.S.V.Col 2:16 (16) Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.N.I.V.
Col 2:16 16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.
Yet the King James bible says this: K.J.V.Col 2:16 (16) Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
The KJV refers to specific (the) sabbath days plural.
That is a change I hadn't seen before. It completely changes the meaning.
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Post by John on Aug 31, 2019 12:26:52 GMT -5
Well there are many things to think about concerning the 4th commandment. Many like to deny that the 4th commandment was moral, yet it is in the list of God's moral laws, which the blood was put on the mercy seat, yet all 10 being in the ark, not one left aside. The 4th commandment is indeed a moral law, yet it has ceremonial aspects to it as well, for it is also mentioned in the ceremonial laws. The fact of working 6 days, and having one day to rest from our weekly labor, is a moral law. But the certain things the priests did on the sabbath, those were ceremonial laws, which there are other ceremonial laws as well. Even the 7th day itself was ceremonial, in that you would remember how God created the world in six days and rested on the 7th. But having a day of rest itself is very moral. Many will say that now it is to rest in Jesus, and yes that is totally true that we rest spiritually in the finished work of Christ. But even under the Old Covenant, they had different types of rest, such as rest from their enemies through Joshua, yet even though they had this type of rest, it did not eliminate the need for a day of rest. Well today, why does resting in Christ, automatically constitute, a day of rest being eliminated, when there is nowhere in the bible that shows that God changed how is 4th commandment functions, were is this elimination verse? Even in Isaiah 65 I believe, it mentions us keeping a sabbath while holding on to the New covenant. And then there is this scripture, which is a prophecy of what happens when we become born again, which it has Israel in mind, but nevertheless pointing to the New Covenant: Jer 31:33 (33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. The moral law which was in Jeremiah's time was to be written in the hearts of Israel, when they would receive Christ, and this scripture is mentioned in the New Testament, and it shows in the New testament, a relation to the New Testament towards it. I do think we physically need a day of rest. My day of rest is on the actual Sabbath Day, Saturday. That is my day off, and it does me good to have that time off, but I do think that this commandment is fulfilled by entering into God's rest through faith in Christ. If it is a calendar day, it is Saturday. I have never seen any indication it was changed to Sunday.
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Post by John on Aug 31, 2019 12:32:41 GMT -5
Here is how I view the law today. If you look at the controversies that existed that Paul was talking about, they were all about law of separation. They were never about moral laws. Paul didn't ever suggest that they were not under the law so they were free to kill, steal, commit adultery, bear false witness, or anything like that. All of the things Paul was dealing with were laws that showed Israel was separate from the gentiles. The Sabbath law to me was not a moral law, but was something that was fulfilled through Christ. It was always to point us to the true rest we find through faith in him, so it is not required we observe a specific calendar day.
The one thing that is obvious is that while Paul was saying we don't have to observe things like circumcision, he told us plainly that if we break moral laws, we will not inherit the Kingdom of God. I explained all of this in a couple of long videos I did about the "False Anti-Legalism Doctrine." If we walk in the Spirit, we don't need to worry about the law, but if we don't, the schoolmaster remains.
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