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Post by John on Sept 1, 2019 8:47:54 GMT -5
When I think I have seen it all, something like this comes along! "Comedy clean enough for church?" Are these men even Christians? It sounds like they are just there to talk about their careers and tell jokes. What is this costing the church? Does tithe money pay for the appearances?
I actually was just kidding about making church "cool again." Even my sarcasm turns out to be true!
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 1, 2019 8:53:25 GMT -5
What is this costing the church? Does tithe money pay for the appearances? In case you wonder how Gateway Church feels about money.... here’s Robert Morris saying non-tithers will be vexed by demons. This is the new standard. Starring in ungodly movies will get you a seat on the stage, but failure to pay tithes gets you raked over the coals.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 1, 2019 8:55:01 GMT -5
I don’t want to derail Cletus’ thread. I posted that video as an answer to John’s question. Let’s do try to stay on topic.
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Post by John on Sept 1, 2019 8:56:30 GMT -5
It used to be that the power of God was present at church meetings and people would turn out for that reason. In a powerless church, I guess this is the new way to get people to come.
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Post by Giller on Sept 1, 2019 9:00:14 GMT -5
hmmm actors and comedians, what other gimmicks will they try? What about just simply showing people Jesus, but I know that is way over their heads to do.
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Post by John on Sept 1, 2019 9:06:37 GMT -5
They can't get big crowds preaching holiness messages, so they do things like this and preach only positive and motivational messages. There is no question this kind of approach draws crowds. Look at Joel Osteen, but how many in those churches are saved? I think the church's goals have changed. It used to be about saving souls from hell and now it is about large numbers and big money.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 1, 2019 9:21:08 GMT -5
There’s a new trend starting to catch on in these churches. You’ll have a famous person, be it TV star, celebrity chef, what have you, who comes out with a book or some sort of package to sell. They go on tour to speak at various churches. Their product is a “crossover” item that sinners can use in a secular way yet can also be connected to a Bible passage.
Dave Ramsey has pioneered a multi-level marketing system for the church. It works like this...
He comes out with a financial planning workbook/package.
Your church forces all the home groups to commit to reading the package.
If you want to be a member in good standing who will be allowed to act in the Christmas play, you’ll come up with the money.
Your church raises funds to purchase a thousand units for home group distribution.
The bulk purchase is done at bulk discount. Church charges YOU full retail and pockets the difference.
A bulk purchase of a certain dollar amount will also purchase an in-person visit from Dave Ramsey himself.
Members invite their unbelieving friends to come meet Dave Ramsey.
Seriously, this is happening. This is the future of evangelism. Churches will offer an ACTUAL PRODUCT to attract unbelievers.
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Post by John on Sept 1, 2019 9:38:52 GMT -5
There’s a new trend starting to catch on in these churches. You’ll have a famous person, be it TV star, celebrity chef, what have you, who comes out with a book or some sort of package to sell. They go on tour to speak at various churches. Their product is a “crossover” item that sinners can use in a secular way yet can also be connected to a Bible passage. Dave Ramsey has pioneered a multi-level marketing system for the church. It works like this... He comes out with a financial planning workbook/package. Your church forces all the home groups to commit to reading the package. If you want to be a member in good standing who will be allowed to act in the Christmas play, you’ll come up with the money. Your church raises funds to purchase a thousand units for home group distribution. The bulk purchase is done at bulk discount. Church charges YOU full retail and pockets the difference. A bulk purchase of a certain dollar amount will also purchase an in-person visit from Dave Ramsey himself. Members invite their unbelieving friends to come meet Dave Ramsey. Seriously, this is happening. This is the future of evangelism. Churches will offer an ACTUAL PRODUCT to attract unbelievers. What is our objective? If we want to get our unsaved friends to be responsible with their money, this is great. I thought our objective was to get people saved and make disciples of them. They are failing at that.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2019 10:14:22 GMT -5
Jhn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. Jhn 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. Eph 4:14-15 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ Jas 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. Jde 1:21-23 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. And of some have compassion, making a difference: And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. Col 4:6
Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.
My thoughts on this is that it appears from scripture that Jesus and the apostles had more than one gear and evangelized, preached/taught according to the specific needs of the people..…as known by God and led by the Holy Spirit. Those gears included a whole range of things from simple instruction, to reproof, to comfort, admonishments, encouragements, warnings, healing, deliverance, etc. Severity in terms of preaching seemed to have been mostly reserved for the erring leaders of Jesus day who were leading the people astray and rejecting He who came in the name of the Lord.
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Post by John on Sept 1, 2019 10:24:13 GMT -5
Jhn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. Jhn 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. Eph 4:14-15 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ Jas 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. Jde 1:21-23 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. And of some have compassion, making a difference: And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. Col 4:6 Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone. My thoughts on this is that it appears from scripture that Jesus and the apostles had more than one gear and evangelized, preached/taught according to the specific needs of the people..…as known by God and led by the Holy Spirit. Those gears included a whole range of things from simple instruction, to reproof, to comfort, admonishments, encouragements, warnings, healing, deliverance, etc. Severity in terms of preaching seemed to have been mostly reserved for the erring leaders of Jesus day who were leading the people astray and rejecting He who came in the name of the Lord. I don't think anyone is suggesting all messages must be negative. The question is whether the Bible teaches all messages should be positive? Clearly it does not. Look at Stephen's message and Peter's message in Acts, and Jesus' sermon on the mount. But I pretty much agree with you about different messages for different groups and times based on the leading of the Holy Spirit.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Sept 1, 2019 10:43:55 GMT -5
If you preach about God's love you will also preach truth (which includes the dangers of sin and its consequences: judgment and wrath).
And you will also preach that Jesus saves us from the wrath to come.
“...Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!” - Matthew 3:2
“and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead,
even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.” - 1 Thessalonians 1:10
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 1, 2019 11:04:06 GMT -5
To be completely honest on this... we are so far gone on the love side, even among so-called holiness people, that what we call hard preaching today would have been soft soap to the apostles.
When we read Hebrews, we can see the restraint in his voice, as he puts forth these deep theological concepts, and then he says it’s just baby food. Oh how far we’ve slipped. Most of Hebrews is baby food, yet today this is the book pastors teach from when they want to “go on to the meat.” If a modern pastor dared to stand up and say his flock was mostly babies because Hebrews was too hard for them, he would be drummed out of a job.
We see it again in 2 Corinthians. Paul said he was being as loving as possible when he told them to remove the sinful man. He agonized over that situation, desperately hoping to stay friends with them, yet his demands in 1 Corinthians 5 sound awfully legalistic. Paul’s hard line in 1 Corinthians WAS him being nice.
Even when we see Paul say “behold the severity and goodness of God.” Look what Paul was talking about. God’s severity toward the Jews WAS His goodness toward the Gentiles. Have you ever heard a modern pastor say that?
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Post by John on Sept 1, 2019 11:23:52 GMT -5
To be completely honest on this... we are so far gone on the love side, even among so-called holiness people, that what we call hard preaching today would have been soft soap to the apostles. When we read Hebrews, we can see the restraint in his voice, as he puts forth these deep theological concepts, and then he says it’s just baby food. Oh how far we’ve slipped. Most of Hebrews is baby food, yet today this is the book pastors teach from when they want to “go on to the meat.” If a modern pastor dared to stand up and say his flock was mostly babies because Hebrews was too hard for them, he would be drummed out of a job. We see it again in 2 Corinthians. Paul said he was being as loving as possible when he told them to remove the sinful man. He agonized over that situation, desperately hoping to stay friends with them, yet his demands in 1 Corinthians 5 sound awfully legalistic. Paul’s hard line in 1 Corinthians WAS him being nice. Even when we see Paul say “behold the severity and goodness of God.” Look what Paul was talking about. God’s severity toward the Jews WAS His goodness toward the Gentiles. Have you ever heard a modern pastor say that? You are right about that. Look at what Frienduff said that got him labelled a Pharisee at WCF! In the past, any Bible-believing Christian would have agreed with him, but in today's apostate church, that kind of thing makes him a legalist. I get called a legalist all the time by false brethren, but compare what I say to someone like John Bunyan and I appear almost liberal. This shows how far the bar has been lowered. Now if you think Christians that commit murder and rape and don't repent will go to hell, you are a Judaizer.
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Cletus
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Post by Cletus on Sept 1, 2019 16:02:49 GMT -5
is this going to take place during normal service time? like worship and preaching and prayer time? If so...
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Cletus
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Post by Cletus on Sept 1, 2019 16:19:38 GMT -5
My thoughts on this is that it appears from scripture that Jesus and the apostles had more than one gear and evangelized, preached/taught according to the specific needs of the people..…as known by God and led by the Holy Spirit. Those gears included a whole range of things from simple instruction, to reproof, to comfort, admonishments, encouragements, warnings, healing, deliverance, etc. Severity in terms of preaching seemed to have been mostly reserved for the erring leaders of Jesus day who were leading the people astray and rejecting He who came in the name of the Lord. ok. I can roll with this... more than one gear.
what i am looking for is also one. one example. a single time in the bible anyone used Gods love alone to draw them in. So, if they had more than one gear surely we can find that "sweet spot" and do like mazda. (zoom zoom)
where is the scriptural evidence of even one account of the tactic just preach about Gods love deployed?
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