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Post by frienduff on Sept 2, 2019 9:52:48 GMT -5
What a parable just came to mind . What shall we liken the generation of today unto . It is like children playing on the beach . And a wise one saying be on guard for a cloud is appearing . To steer clear and go not into the waters lest ye be taken up in the cloud . And the children mock and say alas God is love he will let no harm come to us , we may swim as we like . And into the ocean they gather as troops and up into the cloud they are taken . And the wise men see others still watching on the beach and others still just playing and taking no notice that the clouds have grown ever larger and bigger . And then a vendor appears unto the children and says , alas I have the solution . This cloud that the naysayer warns about will do ye no harm . Its a cloud of great inclusiveness , if ye gather under it and sit in the eye you will find peace . So masses go into the eye and up they are taken . And the wise man sees fewer and fewer who do watch against the cloud and more and more do enter into the eye . And the wise children take heed unto the wise man . FOR the WISE MAN has an ARK and in that ark the children are kept safe from deception . Guess we know who the wise man is , And the wise man tells the children and warns them , IN ME ye shall have peace , but in the world tribulation . The cloud that does build will surely come against thee with full fury and vengeanous . But prescious in my sight is the death of all saints . Endure faithful unto the end and compromise Not one dot of truth and I SHALL BE WITH YOU UNTO THE END . BE LOOKING and WATCHING for I SHALL COME UPON all who watch not as a THEIF IN THE NIGHT .
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Post by frienduff on Sept 2, 2019 9:54:25 GMT -5
It is not Biblically possible. It leads to false conversions where no repentance takes place. No repentance means no salvation occurred. The Spirit operates on truth, and confirms it. Without truth it is not possible for genuine conversion to take place.
“It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing.
The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.” - John 6:63
Truth is part of God's love, you cannot have one without the other.
If people want comfort, they must get it from truth otherwise it is just deception.
The Lord will encourage and support all who wants to live and embrace the truth.
“...Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?” - Luke 18:8
It is one of the strategies of Satan:
Eliminate truth from preaching so the Spirit will not work and consequently not confirm the word being preached.
Do not be deceived, love without truth is not love at all.
It is like letting your children fall from a cliff just because they found it nice and you let them go just because you wouldn't want them sad.
Exactly . todays version of love is loving lambs RIGHT OFF of cliffs and death is the end of that . THAT is NOT LOVE , NOT THE LOVE that COMES FROM GOD who desires none to PERISH .
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2019 10:34:46 GMT -5
I really didn’t base my comments on the condition of the mainstream church. To me this is not about comparing ourselves to Sodom. I’m saying the old saints had a totally different definition of preaching in love, one that seems hard to even a devout holiness person today. After I got saved, for many years I thought I was pretty serious about holiness — until I read the Bible with no modern doctrinal assumptions. Since then I’ve continued to know Christians who consider themselves conservative yet are worldly in comparison to other generations. We’ve lost a great deal of knowledge and power. Even in the best churches. Supposing we do want to draw people to God (only) based on love. Not speaking truth in love, but literally saying nothing other than “God loves you.” That’s what Cletus is looking for. No explanation of sin, no comments on what Jesus saved us from, just getting people saved on the basis that God loves them. Is this biblically possible? It is not Biblically possible. It leads to false conversions where no repentance takes place. No repentance means no salvation occurred.
Repentance means to turn around, to change one's mind, to come back to God from going their own way.......how I look at it is that when someone is saved, ie, comes to faith in Christ, the Lord gives repentance as a gift to whosoever will receive Christ. It's His power that turns them around and changes their mind by a revelation of Himself. And then they begin to receive instruction in righteousness afterward, regarding sins and how to be holy etc. Some sins may fall off right away at conversion, and some take time and the work of the Lord in a life and require a battle or battles. I don't doubt there are false conversions though, where the Holy Spirit was not involved, and people just make a mental or emotional assent to the faith. That can be a start for some, to at least begin to seek the Lord and learn about Him....but sometimes unfortunately it can also work to deceive people. But if they truly want more of God they will seek Him and be found by Him.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2019 10:51:16 GMT -5
I really didn’t base my comments on the condition of the mainstream church. To me this is not about comparing ourselves to Sodom. I’m saying the old saints had a totally different definition of preaching in love, one that seems hard to even a devout holiness person today. After I got saved, for many years I thought I was pretty serious about holiness — until I read the Bible with no modern doctrinal assumptions. Since then I’ve continued to know Christians who consider themselves conservative yet are worldly in comparison to other generations. We’ve lost a great deal of knowledge and power. Even in the best churches. Supposing we do want to draw people to God (only) based on love. Not speaking truth in love, but literally saying nothing other than “God loves you.” That’s what Cletus is looking for. No explanation of sin, no comments on what Jesus saved us from, just getting people saved on the basis that God loves them. Is this biblically possible? Sister, actually I would say yes it is....but only if the Holy Spirit is involved and that is how the Lord wants to minister to them. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son...." If someone is just preaching "knowledge" and only "informing" (or misinforming) them about God's love it doesn't have power to save. We have all heard many different testimonies of how Jesus saves people by many many means, depending on their needs and His wisdom for them. I don't believe there is a formula, but the Spirit blows as He wills. Salvation initially is simply believing on Him...turning to Him from going their own way...and this He grants as a gift. All anyone need to do is not resist His Spirit but yield to Him when He comes calling. God sometimes gives people a vision of hell in order to save them, if that's what they need, and other times He uses compassion. And all other kinds of means. There are testimonies of even Muslims being saved through a simple revelation of Jesus through vision or dream, and He doesn't usually berate them for anything that I have heard, but when He reveals Himself and they receive faith in Him, their old beliefs and practices just are gone. A gift. And after that they, like all of us, must begin to learn of His ways and be trained, corrected, warned, reproved, encouraged, comforted, etc, as they need as they go along.
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Post by John on Sept 2, 2019 11:13:17 GMT -5
It is not Biblically possible. It leads to false conversions where no repentance takes place. No repentance means no salvation occurred.
Repentance means to turn around, to change one's mind, to come back to God from going their own way.......how I look at it is that when someone is saved, ie, comes to faith in Christ, the Lord gives repentance as a gift to whosoever will receive Christ. It's His power that turns them around and changes their mind by a revelation of Himself. And then they begin to receive instruction in righteousness afterward, regarding sins and how to be holy etc. Some sins may fall off right away at conversion, and some take time and the work of the Lord in a life and require a battle or battles. I don't doubt there are false conversions though, where the Holy Spirit was not involved, and people just make a mental or emotional assent to the faith. That can be a start for some, to at least begin to seek the Lord and learn about Him....but sometimes unfortunately it can also work to deceive people. But if they truly want more of God they will seek Him and be found by Him. To me, true repentance involves putting away intentional sins immediately, but a new Christian will still do things that are not so obvious till their sinfulness is revealed to them.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 2, 2019 15:54:55 GMT -5
We continue to veer away from Cletus’ question. A revelation of God’s love in a dream, vision, or similar experience is not something any human preacher can make happen. Absolutely yes, Jesus can reveal Himself in a vivid way to a seeker, and they can be overwhelmed by His grace. I personally came to Jesus through a revelatory experience that didn’t rely on evangelism.
However, the question here is whether a human evangelist anywhere in the Bible went around saying “God loves you” and this was enough to convert people.
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Post by John on Sept 2, 2019 16:05:13 GMT -5
We continue to veer away from Cletus’ question. A revelation of God’s love in a dream, vision, or similar experience is not something any human preacher can make happen. Absolutely yes, Jesus can reveal Himself in a vivid way to a seeker, and they can be overwhelmed by His grace. I personally came to Jesus through a revelatory experience that didn’t rely on evangelism. However, the question here is whether a human evangelist anywhere in the Bible went around saying “God loves you” and this was enough to convert people. I think this was a question we already knew the answer to on the inside. There are none. It is like those billboards I used to see that said, "I love you, signed God." Those things are not effective.
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Post by John on Sept 2, 2019 18:15:51 GMT -5
We continue to veer away from Cletus’ question. A revelation of God’s love in a dream, vision, or similar experience is not something any human preacher can make happen. Absolutely yes, Jesus can reveal Himself in a vivid way to a seeker, and they can be overwhelmed by His grace. I personally came to Jesus through a revelatory experience that didn’t rely on evangelism. However, the question here is whether a human evangelist anywhere in the Bible went around saying “God loves you” and this was enough to convert people. I think Cletus was asking for some discussion around this as well, but of course we understand what he is getting at with his question. My short answer is that the church is falling away and relying on psychology and manipulation as well as man-made methods and formulas (flesh in other words) instead of the Holy Spirit now (scripture calls the Holy Spirit a free spirit, so not bound by formulas). Another problem is that most don't go out to seek and save the lost, they just pretty much stay within their four walls and keep preaching to the choir. With the falling away comes increasing nominalism and that's why the Lord has led many to leave the churches in order to preserve the flame of the gospel through a remnant. So I believe evangelists and preachers should just get out there and preach the whole gospel in love, but be prepared for the Lord to do as He wills. You said something here that I am not so sure about. Where does scripture call "the Holy Spirit a free spirit, so not bound by formulas?" This is something that some in the church world hold to that I have serious concerns over. The Holy Spirit is not going to tell people it is okay to go around violating Biblical teaching. God isn't going to violate His own written Word. That would put him at odds against himself.
I am not necessarily disagreeing with the last thing you said, but I am not sure how to take it. What do you mean by "preach the whole gospel in love, but be prepared for the Lord to do as He wills? I don't understand what that means.
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Post by John on Sept 2, 2019 18:59:24 GMT -5
Let me give you a couple of examples of what I am talking about. Lets suppose that someone is a Christian, and they know the Bible says that no drunkard shall inherit the Kingdom of God, but they feel no convictions about getting drunk on Saturday night. They say that they are going through difficult times, and they feel like the Spirit is allowing this once a week indulgence even thought it is against scripture.
You might have another person who will shop lift for little things every so often. Not enough to do any harm to those huge department stores. The Lord knows they can afford to lose the money for those earrings or bracelets. They feel no conviction, so the Spirit allows them to do it, even though it goes against scripture.
I do believe the Spirit of God will not violate His Word.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2019 19:09:53 GMT -5
I think Cletus was asking for some discussion around this as well, but of course we understand what he is getting at with his question. My short answer is that the church is falling away and relying on psychology and manipulation as well as man-made methods and formulas (flesh in other words) instead of the Holy Spirit now (scripture calls the Holy Spirit a free spirit, so not bound by formulas). Another problem is that most don't go out to seek and save the lost, they just pretty much stay within their four walls and keep preaching to the choir. With the falling away comes increasing nominalism and that's why the Lord has led many to leave the churches in order to preserve the flame of the gospel through a remnant. So I believe evangelists and preachers should just get out there and preach the whole gospel in love, but be prepared for the Lord to do as He wills. You said something here that I am not so sure about. Where does scripture call "the Holy Spirit a free spirit, so not bound by formulas?" This is something that some in the church world hold to that I have serious concerns over. The Holy Spirit is not going to tell people it is okay to go around violating Biblical teaching. God isn't going to violate His own written Word. That would put him at odds against himself.
I am not necessarily disagreeing with the last thing you said, but I am not sure how to take it. What do you mean by "preach the whole gospel in love, but be prepared for the Lord to do as He wills? I don't understand what that means.
I only meant that the Lord is sovereign and to be prepared to be overruled by Him if He wants to go in another direction than the person had planned.
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Post by John on Sept 2, 2019 19:15:58 GMT -5
We are living in the last of the last days, and one of the deceptions that is taking place is trying to do away with absolutes. People have done it by claiming the Bible is full of errors, and only the original autographs are the perfect Word of God, but that is not the only way they do it. Some don't like anything to be black and white, right or wrong. They want everything to be grey. They want to claim freedom to do things that are not Biblical, while having the pretense of being right with God while sinning. To me it doesn't matter what excuse one uses to justify sin, they are wrong, and the Spirit of God has nothing to do with it. It is that old battle with the flesh. And saying that God will take away the sins in his own time is a cop out.
If we are talking about one person coming to the faith and not knowing on day one that trusting the horoscope is a sin, I can understand that. If we are talking about a person coming to the faith and not knowing on day one tattoos are wrong, I get that. At the same time, there is no way that a person comes to the faith and continues in blatant sins of the flesh like drinking in excess, committing fornication, being involved in homosexual sins, stealing, anything like that, and can claim that the Holy Spirit is allowing them to continue in these things for now, because everyone grows at a different rate of speed. It comes down to what someone means when they claim the Spirit isn't bound to act in a certain way. He won't condone sin, ever.
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Post by John on Sept 2, 2019 19:18:23 GMT -5
You said something here that I am not so sure about. Where does scripture call "the Holy Spirit a free spirit, so not bound by formulas?" This is something that some in the church world hold to that I have serious concerns over. The Holy Spirit is not going to tell people it is okay to go around violating Biblical teaching. God isn't going to violate His own written Word. That would put him at odds against himself.
I am not necessarily disagreeing with the last thing you said, but I am not sure how to take it. What do you mean by "preach the whole gospel in love, but be prepared for the Lord to do as He wills? I don't understand what that means.
I only meant that the Lord is sovereign and to be prepared to be overruled by Him if He wants to go in another direction than the person had planned. Even in that comment, I am not sure what you mean. Do you mean he may overrule your pre-conceived idea that it is wrong to violate God's Word in some way, or do you mean he may overrule you when it comes down to plans you made involving an avenue of ministry or a major purchase or something like that?
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Post by John on Sept 2, 2019 19:20:52 GMT -5
You said something here that I am not so sure about. Where does scripture call "the Holy Spirit a free spirit, so not bound by formulas?" This is something that some in the church world hold to that I have serious concerns over. The Holy Spirit is not going to tell people it is okay to go around violating Biblical teaching. God isn't going to violate His own written Word. That would put him at odds against himself.
I am not necessarily disagreeing with the last thing you said, but I am not sure how to take it. What do you mean by "preach the whole gospel in love, but be prepared for the Lord to do as He wills? I don't understand what that means.
I only meant that the Lord is sovereign and to be prepared to be overruled by Him if He wants to go in another direction than the person had planned. The reason I highlighted the words "in love," was I was trying to understand what you mean in saying that we should "preach the whole gospel in love?" I am trying to understand how you can preach the whole gospel without it being in love as opposed to being in love? Can you give any examples of the difference? I am just not sure what you mean?
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Post by solid on Sept 2, 2019 19:29:37 GMT -5
To me, just preach the whole Bible. Don't neglect anything in it.
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Post by John on Sept 2, 2019 19:34:57 GMT -5
To me, just preach the whole Bible. Don't neglect anything in it. I agree. That is what we are told to do. If we preach the whole counsel of the Word of God, everything won't be Jesus loves you messages. There will be warnings in many of them.
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