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Post by Jesus Christ teachings on Sept 10, 2019 5:38:03 GMT -5
There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
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Post by John on Sept 10, 2019 7:16:18 GMT -5
Some see this as a parable but when I read it, I see Jesus telling us something that actually occurred. You have two people, a rich man that lived in luxury, and a poor beggar named Lazarus. The rich man was likely an influential person in this life and Lazarus a nobody, but to God, it was just the opposite. God looked at the rich man as so little in value, his name isn't mentioned.
From the way things turned out, it appears the rich man recognized Lazarus when he saw him, telling me that he didn't regard him when he was suffering and hungry. He was greedy and selfish in this life. Even in hell, he looked at himself as higher in status and saw Lazarus as a servant to be used to perform tasks and take orders.
Something else I thought was interesting was that the rich man doesn't protest his guilt or say he doesn't deserve to be in hell. He requests that Lazarus visit his sinful family and warn them of the reality of hell so they will repent, indicating he was part of a family that did not regard God. In this story, we see that hell is a real place with literal fire and people are already there. Soul sleep is a lie. The rich man's body was sleeping in the ground, but he was fully conscious in hell.
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Cletus
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Post by Cletus on Sept 10, 2019 8:12:42 GMT -5
Some see this as a parable but when I read it, I see Jesus telling us something that actually occurred. You have two people, a rich man that lived in luxury, and a poor beggar named Lazarus. The rich man was likely an influential person in this life and Lazarus a nobody, but to God, it was just the opposite. God looked at the rich man as so little in value, his name isn't mentioned.
From the way things turned out, it appears the rich man recognized Lazarus when he saw him, telling me that he didn't regard him when he was suffering and hungry. He was greedy and selfish in this life. Even in hell, he looked at himself as higher in status and saw Lazarus as a servant to be used to perform tasks and take orders.
Something else I thought was interesting was that the rich man doesn't protest his guilt or say he doesn't deserve to be in hell. He requests that Lazarus visit his sinful family and warn them of the reality of hell so they will repent, indicating he was part of a family that did not regard God. In this story, we see that hell is a real place with literal fire and people are already there. Soul sleep is a lie. The rich man's body was sleeping in the ground, but he was fully conscious in hell.
as i read your words what came to mind was... his name was blotted out.
and also, because they were never liberated from their ways... those things burn within them for ever and ever. no pun intended considering real fire. and thru out eternity those lusts and wicked ways will grow worse and worse as they always do if left unchecked... the fruit of their way is the uncleanness, and they will be so depraved our finite minds can not even perceive it.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 10, 2019 8:41:54 GMT -5
The rich man seemingly had God’s favor on his life. He was blessed, trusted with much, and his leaf didn’t wither. Wasn’t he like a tree planted by water, and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper? And wasn’t Lazarus cursed with this skin disease as a punishment from God? Aren’t we told the righteous are not left to beg for bread? This story from Jesus was radical stuff at the time He said it. He flipped Jewish theology upside down.
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Post by John on Sept 10, 2019 9:05:25 GMT -5
The rich man seemingly had God’s favor on his life. He was blessed, trusted with much, and his leaf didn’t wither. Wasn’t he like a tree planted by water, and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper? And wasn’t Lazarus cursed with this skin disease as a punishment from God? Aren’t we told the righteous are not left to beg for bread? This story from Jesus was radical stuff at the time He said it. He flipped Jewish theology upside down. It also goes against the prosperity gospel of today. It is interesting you should mention the righteous not begging for bread, because that is based on Psalm 37:25.
I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread.
I have found the story of Lazarus perplexing in light of that Psalm. He clearly wasn't forsaken of God, and there is no indication his sores or financial state were the result of punishment, but he was a beggar.
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Post by John on Sept 10, 2019 9:07:08 GMT -5
Some see this as a parable but when I read it, I see Jesus telling us something that actually occurred. You have two people, a rich man that lived in luxury, and a poor beggar named Lazarus. The rich man was likely an influential person in this life and Lazarus a nobody, but to God, it was just the opposite. God looked at the rich man as so little in value, his name isn't mentioned.
From the way things turned out, it appears the rich man recognized Lazarus when he saw him, telling me that he didn't regard him when he was suffering and hungry. He was greedy and selfish in this life. Even in hell, he looked at himself as higher in status and saw Lazarus as a servant to be used to perform tasks and take orders.
Something else I thought was interesting was that the rich man doesn't protest his guilt or say he doesn't deserve to be in hell. He requests that Lazarus visit his sinful family and warn them of the reality of hell so they will repent, indicating he was part of a family that did not regard God. In this story, we see that hell is a real place with literal fire and people are already there. Soul sleep is a lie. The rich man's body was sleeping in the ground, but he was fully conscious in hell.
as i read your words what came to mind was... his name was blotted out.
and also, because they were never liberated from their ways... those things burn within them for ever and ever. no pun intended considering real fire. and thru out eternity those lusts and wicked ways will grow worse and worse as they always do if left unchecked... the fruit of their way is the uncleanness, and they will be so depraved our finite minds can not even perceive it.
I never thought of his name being blotted out, and that being why it wasn't mentioned, but that is possible.
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Cletus
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Posts: 2,517
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Post by Cletus on Sept 10, 2019 17:14:11 GMT -5
as i read your words what came to mind was... his name was blotted out.
and also, because they were never liberated from their ways... those things burn within them for ever and ever. no pun intended considering real fire. and thru out eternity those lusts and wicked ways will grow worse and worse as they always do if left unchecked... the fruit of their way is the uncleanness, and they will be so depraved our finite minds can not even perceive it.
I never thought of his name being blotted out, and that being why it wasn't mentioned, but that is possible.
oh no... i am not trying to say that is why... just that scripture came to mind. the emphasis could have been it wasnt a name and a rich man due to the fact how some rich people are towards others.
the rich man didnt love his neighbor. i dont think he went to hell just because he had money.
but the finality of it is.. Pro 10:7 The memory of the just is blessed: but the name of the wicked shall rot.
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777
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Post by 777 on Sept 10, 2019 22:30:01 GMT -5
There is no indication that this was a parable. Jesus mentions Lazarus by name, and in the parables, I don't remember him ever doing that. He speaks like he is talking about something that actually happened. My take away is that hell is a real place of fire and torment, and we have Moses and the prophets, as well as Jesus warning us to repent so we don't go there. We should pay attention to those warnings.
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Post by John on Sept 14, 2019 20:59:41 GMT -5
I see your point 777, but there is one thing that is odd about it if it is true. In the story, you only have 3 people, and it is quiet enough where the rich man can call across to Abraham. Isn't it likely that it would be noisy in hell and there would be multitudes in paradise and hell, making this impossible? Whether it is real or a parable, it is to show us that hell is a real place of torment for sinners, and we need to repent of our sins and make things right with God while there is still time.
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Post by solid on Sept 18, 2019 14:45:12 GMT -5
The rich man seemingly had God’s favor on his life. He was blessed, trusted with much, and his leaf didn’t wither. Wasn’t he like a tree planted by water, and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper? And wasn’t Lazarus cursed with this skin disease as a punishment from God? Aren’t we told the righteous are not left to beg for bread? This story from Jesus was radical stuff at the time He said it. He flipped Jewish theology upside down. It also goes against the prosperity gospel of today. It is interesting you should mention the righteous not begging for bread, because that is based on Psalm 37:25.
I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread.
I have found the story of Lazarus perplexing in light of that Psalm. He clearly wasn't forsaken of God, and there is no indication his sores or financial state were the result of punishment, but he was a beggar.
Maybe that is a reason to see this as a parable making a point instead of something that really happened?
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Post by solid on Sept 18, 2019 14:46:40 GMT -5
I see your point 777, but there is one thing that is odd about it if it is true. In the story, you only have 3 people, and it is quiet enough where the rich man can call across to Abraham. Isn't it likely that it would be noisy in hell and there would be multitudes in paradise and hell, making this impossible? Whether it is real or a parable, it is to show us that hell is a real place of torment for sinners, and we need to repent of our sins and make things right with God while there is still time.
If you believe the Bible, hell is a real place.
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Post by John on Sept 18, 2019 14:49:14 GMT -5
It also goes against the prosperity gospel of today. It is interesting you should mention the righteous not begging for bread, because that is based on Psalm 37:25.
I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread.
I have found the story of Lazarus perplexing in light of that Psalm. He clearly wasn't forsaken of God, and there is no indication his sores or financial state were the result of punishment, but he was a beggar.
Maybe that is a reason to see this as a parable making a point instead of something that really happened? I am really undecided about it being a parable.
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Post by solid on Sept 18, 2019 14:59:55 GMT -5
Maybe that is a reason to see this as a parable making a point instead of something that really happened? I am really undecided about it being a parable.
I don't know either.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 18, 2019 22:17:15 GMT -5
Here’s my concern about calling it a mere parable. Why would Jesus make up a fictional story that undermined/contradicted real doctrinal truth just to make a point to His opponents? If His point was worth making, couldn’t He have made it honestly?
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Post by John on Sept 21, 2019 16:20:29 GMT -5
Here’s my concern about calling it a mere parable. Why would Jesus make up a fictional story that undermined/contradicted real doctrinal truth just to make a point to His opponents? If His point was worth making, couldn’t He have made it honestly? That is a valid point. Why say the righteous never find themselves begging for bread and then tell a story where a righteous man was a beggar?
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