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Post by Giller on Sept 26, 2019 12:05:40 GMT -5
It’s worth noting that great leaders of the Bible modeled the good shepherd. They were far from hirelings. And Moses returned unto the Lord, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin―; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. — Exodus 32:31-32
And Samson said, Let me die with the Philistines. And he bowed himself with all his might; and the house fell upon the lords, and upon all the people that were therein. So the dead which he slew at his death were more than they which he slew in his life. — Judges 16:30
And David said unto God, Is it not I that commanded the people to be numbered? even I it is that have sinned and done evil indeed; but as for these sheep, what have they done? let thine hand, I pray thee, O Lord my God, be on me, and on my father's house; but not on thy people, that they should be plagued. — 1 Chronicles 21:17 This behavior was expected of all whom God appointed to lead His people. Amen to this. Because a good shepherd will seek to be an example in life (action), in speech and in attitude. One can preach the word to the flock, and even preach right things, and yet still be wrong because of the attitude it is preached in. Is a shepherd just seeking to get people to obey the things of God, without seeking to develop their character, so they can properly obey God's word? Yes it is required for us to obey the things of God, but there is a right way to do it, and a wrong way to do it.
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Post by John on Sept 26, 2019 12:35:08 GMT -5
It’s worth noting that great leaders of the Bible modeled the good shepherd. They were far from hirelings. And Moses returned unto the Lord, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin―; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. — Exodus 32:31-32
And Samson said, Let me die with the Philistines. And he bowed himself with all his might; and the house fell upon the lords, and upon all the people that were therein. So the dead which he slew at his death were more than they which he slew in his life. — Judges 16:30
And David said unto God, Is it not I that commanded the people to be numbered? even I it is that have sinned and done evil indeed; but as for these sheep, what have they done? let thine hand, I pray thee, O Lord my God, be on me, and on my father's house; but not on thy people, that they should be plagued. — 1 Chronicles 21:17 This behavior was expected of all whom God appointed to lead His people. Amen to this. Because a good shepherd will seek to be an example in life (action), in speech and in attitude. One can preach the word to the flock, and even preach right things, and yet still be wrong because of the attitude it is preached in. Is a shepherd just seeking to get people to obey the things of God, without seeking to develop their character, so they can properly obey God's word? Yes it is required for us to obey the things of God, but there is a right way to do it, and a wrong way to do it. For the most part I understand and agree with what you said, but I am not sure what you mean by a wrong way to obey God?
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Post by Giller on Sept 26, 2019 12:44:28 GMT -5
Trying to obey God's word in the sense of say, trying to get merits with him, or for the purpose of merits, for the purpose of meriting salvation, for the purpose of making themselves more righteous, without submitting themselves to the righteousness of Christ, or the righteousness they have in Christ.
The way something is preached can cause people to either obey God out of love , or out of being so full of panic that they are not looking to Christ for righteousness, but hey are looking to the things they do for salvation.
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Post by Giller on Sept 26, 2019 12:46:16 GMT -5
So what happens is the focus of their faith is not in the finished work of Christ, but in the things they do.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 26, 2019 12:50:35 GMT -5
I understand what Giller is saying. You can tell a young woman to obey her husband because you said so, or you can take her through a study on Christian marriage. You can spout off all sorts of good doctrines and good policies because you say so, or you can follow through with grounding them in the word. Eventually the answer of “because I say so” will wear thin, and if that young woman doesn’t know the Bible, she will be easy pickings for other people to put ideas in her head. Because I say so can be an important step for young people or spiritual babes, but it isn’t a long-term strategy.
Preachers often get up and rip into their flock in a revenge move against one or two members. Their flesh can get the best of them, and they can air dirty laundry under the guise of Bible teaching. Perhaps the teaching was mostly true, but if they have left a member in tears, that member will probably not come back.
One of the most dangerous things you can do is to use spiritual truth as a weapon to get what you want. This is something I try to be very vigilant about. Speaking the truth in a spirit of “take that” will come back to bite you in the end.
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Post by John on Sept 26, 2019 12:51:20 GMT -5
Trying to obey God's word in the sense of say, trying to get merits with him, or for the purpose of merits, for the purpose of meriting salvation, for the purpose of making themselves more righteous, without submitting themselves to the righteousness of Christ, or the righteousness they have in Christ. The way something is preached can cause people to either obey God out of love , or out of being so full of panic that they are not looking to Christ for righteousness, but hey are looking to the things they do for salvation. That is interesting, and our goal should be that people would obey God because of relationship, but for new Christians, and even some hard headed ones, fear can be a good motivator. Jesus gave plenty of warnings about hell.
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Post by Giller on Sept 26, 2019 12:55:12 GMT -5
There are times to were things have to be done with sharp rebuke, and I am not talking about that.
I am more talking about, in what spirit is the preacher saying things through, is it a spirit of self righteousness, a spirit of condemnation, to were they really are not seeking the good of the people, just the submission of the people no matter what, as long as they obey what they say, who cares about motive (is what they would say).
Yet we know that motive does matter to God.
Heb 4:12 (12) For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
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Post by Giller on Sept 26, 2019 12:58:08 GMT -5
Trying to obey God's word in the sense of say, trying to get merits with him, or for the purpose of merits, for the purpose of meriting salvation, for the purpose of making themselves more righteous, without submitting themselves to the righteousness of Christ, or the righteousness they have in Christ. The way something is preached can cause people to either obey God out of love , or out of being so full of panic that they are not looking to Christ for righteousness, but hey are looking to the things they do for salvation. That is interesting, and our goal should be that people would obey God because of relationship, but for new Christians, and even some hard headed ones, fear can be a good motivator. Jesus gave plenty of warnings about hell.
John I do not think you are taking me the right way. Their can be an aspect of that, but you have to be careful. And I am not talking about preaching against hell or hard subjects no not at all.
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Post by John on Sept 26, 2019 13:00:50 GMT -5
That is interesting, and our goal should be that people would obey God because of relationship, but for new Christians, and even some hard headed ones, fear can be a good motivator. Jesus gave plenty of warnings about hell.
John I do not think you are taking me the right way. Their can be an aspect of that, but you have to be careful. And I am not talking about preaching against hell or hard subjects no not at all. I wasn't sure what you meant. I wasn't taking you any particular way. Thanks.
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Post by Giller on Sept 26, 2019 13:07:42 GMT -5
I am talking about motive or the motivation behind the preach.
And yes some sharp rebukes can be given, but even in this, they have to be in the right attitude.
Some preachers actually do preach things in a wrong spirit, full of rashness and harshness, towards their flock, and you can feel that the spirit they are exhibiting is not of God at all, it is easy to see, and it is very well known that this takes place.
It happens in cults all the time.
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Post by Giller on Sept 26, 2019 13:15:25 GMT -5
Now righteous anger is not at all the same as self righteous anger, both are motivated by a different spirit.
And in self righteous anger you can even say true biblical things, but from a wrong spirit, or a spirit that is self centered and not looking out for the good of the flock.
You can use scriptures from a self centered view.
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Post by Giller on Sept 26, 2019 13:17:48 GMT -5
Just because there is anger, and scripture is used, does not always mean that it is a truly Christ centered righteous anger.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 26, 2019 13:19:48 GMT -5
God will not be mocked. This is serious business. Using Him to win a silly fight or protect your own ego is dangerous. His pearls are not footballs. I’m not saying I’m perfect in this, but it’s something I think about quite often.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 26, 2019 13:29:08 GMT -5
One thing I’ve seen in church leadership is that shepherds tend to take one of two extremes. Either they try to be a lovey-dovey cool dude or a militant dictator. It’s hard to find a shepherd who can be a good firm leader but also a sensitive friend who cares.
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Post by frienduff on Sept 26, 2019 13:32:49 GMT -5
Sister watchful , I don't care what the pope and his sold out protestant leaders say about you . I LOVES YA SISTER . GET SOME REST . I think folks are shooting past one another on some things . Just get some rest sister . Let us always point to JESUS . AND on that note , butero , watchful and all , ITS TIME TO PRAISE THE LORD > Oh yes, for sure we are talking past each other.....one is talking apples and the other is talking oranges. If the word of God abides forever and never passes away, I would like to know how we can possibly take a carnal view and read it as talking about temporal things. For example that false prophetess and her children long ago passed away, 2000 years ago....so how can we read that verse literally today, since it is an eternal word? I remember Jesus reproving His disciples for thinking He was talking about bread. And just to add that there is a big difference between threatening and warning in the spirit.....warning in the spirit still leaves a person free to choose, it just helps them to be willing to choose right.....whereas threatening is of the flesh and forces a person against their will to do the will of the one threatening. But I am not sure the carnal mind will be able to perceive the difference with that either. But even paul made threats . IF YOU DONT REPENT I am COMING WITH THE ROD . ANd paul made a man blind as a bat with double glaucoma for even trying to lead the deputy away . AND GOD himself says REPENT OR ELSE . THAT sounds like a massive warning to me too .
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