Giller I hope you understand I wasn’t criticizing you. Only offering my thoughts on the absence of formal direction.
Ya in certain areas, there is no specific formal directions, that is true.
Because I know even in this specific area, people squabble over that a service has to be this way or that way, but it is not always the case, the Holy Spirit leads in this, and the specifics of this is that all be done decently and in order.
Some do not like, if say you pray first, then worship and have a preach, they think it has to be different each time, but then again, there are some who may not allow the Holy Spirit to lead in a different direction, and I find in these areas sometimes there can be too many squabbles.
What I care about is not the order of how things are done in, but rather is the Spirit there or not, are things being done decently and in order.
Because the bible does talk about worship, prayer and the preaching and teaching of the word, I embrace all of it.
So concerning this, i have come to a simple conclusion, is the Spirit in it or not?
That is it, I do not want to bring my ideal of how things should be done, I will just seek the Spirit of God, and let God show this or that, or is the Spirit there or not.
It is not about a house movement, a building movement, it is about the gospel.
The gospel brings people together, not under a system, but under him.
But because men seek to add their ways to the gospel, it tends to bring people away from the simplicity of the gospel and what it was really meant for.
Mar 7:5-8 (5) Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands? (6) He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. (7) Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. (8) For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
And concerning systems, we can see that the Pharisees which were a sect, created their own man made system, and Jesus did not say much good to them at all, and in effect, they were in essence you could say a denomination, which they added laws to God's laws and made their own religion.
And at one point Paul said this:
Act 20:29-30 (29) For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. (30) Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
And you know what happened (if you read church history), that is exactly what happened, when Paul was off the scene, grievous wolves came in.
And gradually a man made church system was beginning to form, which in the time of Constantine, brought forth the Roman Catholic church.
The Catholic church is a cult, but what was done through Constantine was that he merged paganism with Christianity to form Roman Catholicism, which is a man made system.
And if you read and study some of the seven churches, you will see in some of them, either some type hierarchy that was formed (Nicolaitans), and even in respect to a man made type of system.
So the bible does have things to say about this, and you will see that it has nothing good to say about this.
And the bible does give guidance on things, but in certain areas, there may not be total specifics, but guidance nevertheless, such as to do things decently and in order, that is guidance, and it tells us to gather so much the more as you see the day approaching, that is guidance.
To not be conformed to this world, that is guidance, and the church is to be conformed to his image, and what he came to form was a body, not a system.
Just look at the warnings to the Pharisees and Saducees, and study some of the warnings to some of the 7 churches and you will see what I mean.
Here is some information on just one of the seven churches, and for now, there is a specific other one that I will leave out.
Rev 2:12-17 (12) And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges; (13) I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth. (14) But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. (15) So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. (16) Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth. (17) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
Wow that is a very severe warning, how if they do not repent, God will fight against them with the sword of his mouth.
And in this church it mentions this Antipas, but do you know what Antipas means?
It means "against all"!!!!!!!
So Antipas was one of the exceptions, that had not given himself over to the doctrine of the Nicolaitans and so forth, and he got martyred.
But now what does the name Pergamos mean or I should say it's root name?
Well here is info from a study I wrote:
“…- Pergamos was the most splendid city in the Roman province of Asia. It attracted scholars and priests with it's magnificent temples. The city of Pergamos was devoted to emperor worship; it also had temples honoring pagan deities such as Dionysus and Athena. People for miles around met in Pergamos to worship Zeus, chief of the Greek gods.…
The defining word for the church of Pergamos, is the word married, and that is what the root word for Pergamos is.
Now this church was worldly, and married to this world's government..."
And it mentions 2 doctrines to which some of them held: The doctrine of Balaam, and the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, these were 2 different and separate doctrines, even though in some elements, there may have been similarities, but otherwise not at all.
Here is some info from a study I wrote:
"...Iranaeus,identified the Nicolaitans in his treatise "Against Heresies" in the second century as they who are an "offshoot of the knowledge which is falsely so-called," mentioning that they "lead lives of unrestrained indulgence." There is no absolute proof that the heretic Nicolas was the Deacon of the same name from Antioch of the seven deacons in the book of Acts, but Iranaeus supposed him to be so.
Ignatius mentions the Nicolaitans also, so there was in fact a heretical group existing at that time. Nicolas the deacon was perhaps confused with another Nicolas, the bishop Nicolas of Samaria who was a heretic in the company of Simon Magus.
The root of the word through historical evaluation shows us that the word Nicolaitans comes from Greek nikao, to conquer or overcome, and laos, which means people and which the word laity comes from....
...A good translation of Nicolaitan would be "those who prevail over the people." This clerical system later developed into the papal hierarchy of priests and clergy over the laity. ..."
If you study the history of Simon Magus, he was a ruler over the people, and it is possible that this Nicolas of Samaria, who may had something to do with the Nicolaitans had learnt this trait of Simon Magus.
So you see that Pergamos had people who held to the doctrine of Nicolaitans, and the root word for Pergamos, which is gam'-os, means to be married, which they were married to this world's government.
Jesus never founded the church on the back of the government, it is suppose to be a separate entity.
Yet how many protestants churches, are married to the government???
And this is only but one of the seven churches, I just mentioned !!!!!!!
And many times, in various different forms, and to varying degrees, many of the seven churches had developed some of the influences from within their respected cities, though some more so than others.
Last Edit: Sept 21, 2019 23:40:29 GMT -5 by Giller
I do believe there is enough in the Bible where we can make headway in creating a church that looks more like the early church than anything we have now. It would be worth making the effort to restore proper order as best we can.