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Post by Giller on Sept 19, 2019 13:30:47 GMT -5
We really got to go back to the grassroots of things, and abandon all man made stuff.
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Post by John on Sept 19, 2019 13:44:58 GMT -5
I see good and bad regarding the denominational system. On the plus side, all churches in a denomination should be teaching the same doctrine no matter where you go, so if you agree with your denomination's teachings, you can fellowship with like minded people anywhere. On the bad side, they will all be forced to hold to doctrinal errors.
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Post by frienduff on Sept 19, 2019 16:07:37 GMT -5
Lording over literally means to subjugate, control and so on, that is what lording over something is, you subdue it, until you control it in every way, which with it follows a self righteous attitude.. And there is a difference between exerting control of situations, in a biblical manner according what the word allows via a role of authority, and controlling, subjugating the flock and so on. To me it is very simple to see. The one who is the ultimate leader is the Holy Spirit. All leaders must submit to him and his guidance otherwise, they will not be leading well. And they must lead in the right spirit. And let us use paul as an example . See how he first wrote the Corinthians the second time , so that they would REPENT because he would rather find them walking in truth . But take a look at this too . And I will bewail many etc . Paul Lorded not over the flock , but you better believe he was coming with a ROD unto all who had not repented . They were HELPERS of the faith . Sharp rebukers too when it was surely needed . Very grave too . IN fact he told them in the first letter , You cast that man out and rebuked them because they had not done so already . SO to be very sharp and grave is not LORDING IT , ITS BIG TIME necessary , for we love all and desire none to perish . You be encouraged giller . And raise those hands up and just praise the HOLY LORD . ITS all about being in THE RIGHT SPIRIT . we rebuke sharply out of fear for their souls and to protect the others from leaven too . ITS ALL ABOUT the AGAPE LOVE OF GOD that cometh with chastisments when needed and with encouragemnts too .
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Post by frienduff on Sept 19, 2019 16:18:58 GMT -5
And regardless of this, if a person's heart is set in a certain way, then they will go in that direction, no matter what. EXACTLY . Its why paul often said EXAMINE thyself . ITs why peter said make that calling and election sure . FOR if a persons HEART is set ON THE WAYS OF GOD , THEN THEY WILL GO IN THAT DIRECTION NO MATTER WHAT COMES AGAINST THEM . THEY LOVE and ADORN TRUTH RIGHT FROM THE HEART WHEREIN DWELLS THE SPIRIT that even Gives them this desire and the ability to PERFORM IT . Folks will always follow their hearts and ways , BUT as for lambs ITS HIS WAYS LAID UPON THEIR HEARTS and that is the path they will follow IN CHRIST
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Post by frienduff on Sept 19, 2019 16:46:54 GMT -5
Yes my dear friends and on that note , we all know what time it truly is , TIME TO PRAISE THE LORD .
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Post by frienduff on Sept 19, 2019 16:48:48 GMT -5
I miss my dear sister candance . WELL TONIGHT its PRAISE AND PRAYER NIGHT . I hope to see my friends there . What a praise fest to the LORD as we all pray .
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Post by Giller on Sept 20, 2019 0:28:36 GMT -5
Anyhow to me denominations are man made, and God never gave an example for us to make one up.
I would rather follow the example of the bible, than defend something that is not biblical.
But on that note, I will ask the question I asked at the beginning, you may be out of the system, but how much of the system is still in you?
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Post by John on Sept 20, 2019 3:40:18 GMT -5
Anyhow to me denominations are man made, and God never gave an example for us to make one up. I would rather follow the example of the bible, than defend something that is not biblical. But on that note, I will ask the question I asked at the beginning, you may be out of the system, but how much of the system is still in you? I would suggest that we all have some of the system in us. If you go back to the original church, what I see is the Apostles went to new places, established churches with converts they won, and then continued this pattern. They went from one place to another establishing new churches. Rather than having a denomination, the one that established the churches became an overseer of all the churches they established. In that, I do see something similar to denominations. The difference is that their oversight was not organized. It was just lending general oversight. They didn't have programs and rules in place that all the churches had to follow, but they simply made sure they were faithfully continuing to follow the Lord.
You didn't have multiple churches in each city. You may have had different meeting places, but it was known as the church of Philadelphia or Corinth or Ephesus or Rome. You didn't have churches named after a bunch of different people, often the result of splits. In that way, the church had more unity. They were all of the same general beliefs, founded upon the doctrine of the Apostles. Today, you have dozens of churches in the smallest of towns divided over doctrines established by the reformers and individuals who happened to form their own independent congregations. I don't know of any way to return to the early pattern in this regard. You could form a church and call it the church of such and such city, but you would still be one of dozens or hundreds of churches there. In one way, I am not so sure that this split can't trace it's roots to the very beginning, where they were saying I am of Paul and I am of Apollos. That was not something positive. Paul was coming against such divisions, but it was already happening then.
The best anyone could do is attempt to reach new converts, establish new churches, and try to oversee them, and give them their names according to their city. To me, the result will be something similar to a denomination, because there is one thing we are lacking in what we see in the original pattern. We see how it was at the very beginning, not what occurred after the original Apostles died. Who continued with the oversight then? If you want to return to the original pattern, you would have to begin by ignoring everything that exists, begin with a new group of Apostles with new converts and have them going city to city starting churches and overseeing them. Is that possible today? Is that even desirable? Who will be the Apostles of this generation to do this work? How many will there be? I do believe we can be modern day reformers, working to get as close to the original pattern as possible, but I am not sure we can start over as though nothing has taken place over the last 2000 years.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2019 6:12:03 GMT -5
1Pe 5:3 (3) Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. Here is what " Lords over" means in the Greek: (Strong's concordance) (G2634 κατακυριεύω katakurieuō
kat-ak-oo-ree-yoo'-o From G2596 and G2961; to lord against, that is, control, subjugate: - exercise dominion over ( lordship), be lord over, overcome.) Leaders are not to Lord it over the flock or control the flock, but rather to build them up in the most holy faith , so they grow in their walk with God, and learn to trust in Jesus. God says no (Lording over the flock), and he means no. I do not believe that is what it means when he says not to Lord over God's heritage. You don't have authorities if they can't exert control. If they can't actually rule over someone, they are not authorities but just advisors. It has to be speaking of attitude.
<< You don't have authorities if they can't exert control. >> I just want to comment on this once more brother. What you are saying here is only true of worldly and fleshly authority. God's ways are not man's ways. Jesus did not exert control over the people...He allowed them their own free will to either follow and obey, or not. He never forced or coerced anyone to follow Him. That is exactly the kind of earthly "kingship" He fled from when they tried to crown Him their king. Even tares are allowed to grow alongside the wheat in the church. Have to remember we are not wrestling with flesh and blood...authority in the church is SPIRITUAL authority and is itself under authority and needs to be in submission to Christ.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2019 6:17:16 GMT -5
Lording over literally means to subjugate, control and so on, that is what lording over something is, you subdue it, until you control it in every way, which with it follows a self righteous attitude.. And there is a difference between exerting control of situations, in a biblical manner according what the word allows via a role of authority, and controlling, subjugating the flock and so on. To me it is very simple to see. The one who is the ultimate leader is the Holy Spirit. All leaders must submit to him and his guidance otherwise, they will not be leading well. And they must lead in the right spirit. And let us use paul as an example . See how he first wrote the Corinthians the second time , so that they would REPENT because he would rather find them walking in truth . But take a look at this too . And I will bewail many etc . Paul Lorded not over the flock , but you better believe he was coming with a ROD unto all who had not repented . They were HELPERS of the faith . Sharp rebukers too when it was surely needed . Very grave too . IN fact he told them in the first letter , You cast that man out and rebuked them because they had not done so already . SO to be very sharp and grave is not LORDING IT , ITS BIG TIME necessary , for we love all and desire none to perish . You be encouraged giller . And raise those hands up and just praise the HOLY LORD . ITS all about being in THE RIGHT SPIRIT . we rebuke sharply out of fear for their souls and to protect the others from leaven too . ITS ALL ABOUT the AGAPE LOVE OF GOD that cometh with chastisments when needed and with encouragemnts too .
Amen. It's just a matter of whether things are being done according to the flesh or the spirit or not. God's ways are not the ways of the flesh and the world, they just aren't. His ways are higher.
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Post by John on Sept 20, 2019 6:24:35 GMT -5
I do not believe that is what it means when he says not to Lord over God's heritage. You don't have authorities if they can't exert control. If they can't actually rule over someone, they are not authorities but just advisors. It has to be speaking of attitude.
<< You don't have authorities if they can't exert control. >> I just want to comment on this once more brother. What you are saying here is only true of worldly and fleshly authority. God's ways are not man's ways. Jesus did not exert control over the people...He allowed them their own free will to either follow and obey, or not. He never forced or coerced anyone to follow Him. That is exactly the kind of earthly "kingship" He fled from when they tried to crown Him their king. Even tares are allowed to grow alongside the wheat in the church. Have to remember we are not wrestling with flesh and blood...authority in the church is SPIRITUAL authority and is itself under authority and needs to be in submission to Christ. I don't see a difference like you do. I have free will to do whatever I want in this world. Laws are in place, but I can choose to break them. To discourage me from breaking them, there are punishments like fines, jail or death. The same thing occurs with Jesus. We are free to disobey him, but to discourage that, if we disobey, we face chastisement or possibly eternal damnation. In the church, you can disobey the authorities, but to discourage this, you face chastisement or even being put out of the church. What is really the difference?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2019 6:30:39 GMT -5
Anyhow to me denominations are man made, and God never gave an example for us to make one up. I would rather follow the example of the bible, than defend something that is not biblical. But on that note, I will ask the question I asked at the beginning, you may be out of the system, but how much of the system is still in you? Amen. We need to have our minds renewed to apprehend that there is only one church (there is only ONE body, ONE Spirit) and it is made up of true believers, those who take up their cross and follow Christ. His true ones have been sheep among wolves, just as Jesus said.......IN the churches, in the system. Yes, we need to recognize that the 'system' is of the flesh and lives in all our flesh as long as we have these bodies and minds of flesh. Come to the place where we can humbly say like the prophet, "Lord, I am no better than my ancestors" so that we can overcome.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 20, 2019 8:58:27 GMT -5
I can’t tell exactly what this thread is about, nor what Giller means by system. Is this about the need for a chain of command to provide oversight and counsel? Is this about how to organize like-minded Christians? How much of a ‘business model’ should be present?
John’s main concern seems to be that authority with no practical power is no real authority. When Paul said he delivered people to Satan for a season of working on their flesh, I don’t see that as mere vaporing; he must have been able to actually do it. What a chilling thought for Paul to speak over you that you’re about to be free game for Satan’s minions. That proposition is worse than any berating lecture or insulting personal treatment. I’d rather take a beating than to hear an apostle say he’s letting Satan work on me.
The real question to me is how many modern shepherds are capable of doing it the apostles’ way. Without their level of power and grace, any model will become a business model in the end.
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Post by Giller on Sept 20, 2019 9:36:24 GMT -5
I do not believe that is what it means when he says not to Lord over God's heritage. You don't have authorities if they can't exert control. If they can't actually rule over someone, they are not authorities but just advisors. It has to be speaking of attitude.
<< You don't have authorities if they can't exert control. >> I just want to comment on this once more brother. What you are saying here is only true of worldly and fleshly authority. God's ways are not man's ways. Jesus did not exert control over the people...He allowed them their own free will to either follow and obey, or not. He never forced or coerced anyone to follow Him. That is exactly the kind of earthly "kingship" He fled from when they tried to crown Him their king. Even tares are allowed to grow alongside the wheat in the church. Have to remember we are not wrestling with flesh and blood...authority in the church is SPIRITUAL authority and is itself under authority and needs to be in submission to Christ. Now I do agree with what you say here, but at the same time in a certain aspect, there is exerting control of certain situations, and there is corrections to be done, and Apostles and so on do have the power to put someone out of the church, so I do think that John does have a point on things, but Jesus is the higher authority of course. And all shepherds must be in tune with the Holy Ghost. I see no were were it says that pastors were given for the controlling of the saints, but I do see were it says that they were given for the perfecting of the saints, I think John has his points in some ways, and even Candance mentioned good points about it is not a mere vapouring. But there is exertion of control in situations, to were this or that has to be implemented, and sometimes as Frienduff has mentioned, there are times were severe rebukes are done.
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Post by Giller on Sept 20, 2019 9:39:25 GMT -5
And by system, I mean denominations, their structure, how things are implemented, the whole thing, and that we need to get away from this system, and just follow God's ways.
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