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Post by John on Sept 24, 2019 21:03:31 GMT -5
Most of the time, when we are faced with difficult issues, we are still able to come to a decision, but what about in those times where we just don't know what to do? Is it ever Biblical to cast lots? I went to a web-site looking for opinions on this topic, to be surprised at how they claim that this is not something we should do. I am not saying I am sold on the idea, and I do believe that in almost all cases, an educated decision based on the facts is the best way to go, but I don't see how anyone can claim this is not something Biblical for today. One of the most important decisions made by the Apostles was largely made by casting lots. They were able to narrow things down to two candidates, but the final decision was made by lots. Here is that story from Acts 1:15-26. We are able to go back in time and look in on a church meeting.
And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,) Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus. For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out. And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood. For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.
Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection. And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen. That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
I feel confident that the Apostles knew that both of these two men were both able to be the successor of Judas Iscariot, but still, allowing the final decision to come down to casting lots seems strange, even if you did pray about it first. Within myself, I am convinced that Matthias was God's choice, and he is numbered among the eleven and one of the twelve to this day, but the question is, are there ever occasions where major decisions should be made by casting lots after prayer?
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777
Senior Member
Teacher
Posts: 1,189
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Post by 777 on Sept 24, 2019 21:42:58 GMT -5
The early church did practice casting lots, but I think that for me, I would only consider doing that in a case where I absolutely had no idea which way to go, and either way seemed equal.
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Post by John on Sept 25, 2019 3:28:17 GMT -5
The early church did practice casting lots, but I think that for me, I would only consider doing that in a case where I absolutely had no idea which way to go, and either way seemed equal. I tend to believe that in the case of who should be the one to take the place of Judas Iscariot and be numbered among the eleven, they must have had two very good men and no way to determine who was the best choice so they cast lots. Everything in scripture is there for a reason, so I think there must be a place for casting lots to decide things in at least some cases. Then comes the question of how they did it? Was it basically the same as the flip of a coin?
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777
Senior Member
Teacher
Posts: 1,189
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Post by 777 on Sept 25, 2019 21:39:34 GMT -5
The early church did practice casting lots, but I think that for me, I would only consider doing that in a case where I absolutely had no idea which way to go, and either way seemed equal. I tend to believe that in the case of who should be the one to take the place of Judas Iscariot and be numbered among the eleven, they must have had two very good men and no way to determine who was the best choice so they cast lots. Everything in scripture is there for a reason, so I think there must be a place for casting lots to decide things in at least some cases. Then comes the question of how they did it? Was it basically the same as the flip of a coin?
I doubt they flipped a Roman coin, but I would imagine a coin would accomplish the same thing. You would just pray and ask that the coin would land on the correct side that would be the will of God and leave it in his hands. I would prefer to find a better method of making decisions, but since this was done in the Bible in the New Testament, I suppose it has it's place.
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Post by Giller on Sept 26, 2019 1:25:26 GMT -5
New testament wise, you do not see many examples of casting lots.
And it did seem that these 2 men would have been capable, and I also believe that the right man was chosen.
And I do not believe that this should be made into a method that has to be used all the time, but in this case it was used.
If the Holy Spirit directs in doing so, then do so, but only when needed, and as he directs, because it was not always done in this way.
And also do not make a method out of it.
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Post by John on Sept 26, 2019 5:19:40 GMT -5
It is unusual, but I have heard of political races that ended in a tie being decided by a coin flip.
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Post by Giller on Sept 27, 2019 10:43:12 GMT -5
Ya that is unusual in politics.
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Post by Giller on Sept 27, 2019 10:45:42 GMT -5
Most of the time, when we are faced with difficult issues, we are still able to come to a decision, but what about in those times where we just don't know what to do? Is it ever Biblical to cast lots? I went to a web-site looking for opinions on this topic, to be surprised at how they claim that this is not something we should do. I am not saying I am sold on the idea, and I do believe that in almost all cases, an educated decision based on the facts is the best way to go, but I don't see how anyone can claim this is not something Biblical for today. One of the most important decisions made by the Apostles was largely made by casting lots. They were able to narrow things down to two candidates, but the final decision was made by lots. Here is that story from Acts 1:15-26. We are able to go back in time and look in on a church meeting.
And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,) Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus. For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out. And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood. For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.
Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection. And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen. That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
I feel confident that the Apostles knew that both of these two men were both able to be the successor of Judas Iscariot, but still, allowing the final decision to come down to casting lots seems strange, even if you did pray about it first. Within myself, I am convinced that Matthias was God's choice, and he is numbered among the eleven and one of the twelve to this day, but the question is, are there ever occasions where major decisions should be made by casting lots after prayer?
John how many of them cast their lot, was it only the 11, or all 120?
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Post by John on Sept 27, 2019 10:53:20 GMT -5
Most of the time, when we are faced with difficult issues, we are still able to come to a decision, but what about in those times where we just don't know what to do? Is it ever Biblical to cast lots? I went to a web-site looking for opinions on this topic, to be surprised at how they claim that this is not something we should do. I am not saying I am sold on the idea, and I do believe that in almost all cases, an educated decision based on the facts is the best way to go, but I don't see how anyone can claim this is not something Biblical for today. One of the most important decisions made by the Apostles was largely made by casting lots. They were able to narrow things down to two candidates, but the final decision was made by lots. Here is that story from Acts 1:15-26. We are able to go back in time and look in on a church meeting.
And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,) Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus. For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out. And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood. For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.
Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection. And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen. That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
I feel confident that the Apostles knew that both of these two men were both able to be the successor of Judas Iscariot, but still, allowing the final decision to come down to casting lots seems strange, even if you did pray about it first. Within myself, I am convinced that Matthias was God's choice, and he is numbered among the eleven and one of the twelve to this day, but the question is, are there ever occasions where major decisions should be made by casting lots after prayer?
John how many of them cast their lot, was it only the 11, or all 120? I really don't know. I assumed one did it for all of them, but I haven't found anyone that knows exactly how people used to cast lots.
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Post by Giller on Sept 27, 2019 11:16:48 GMT -5
What I just read is kind of interesting, it is a comment from Jimmy and it makes sense.
And notice what it says, before I mention the comment:
Act 1:26 (26) And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
It mentions their lots in plural form, but when the 12th apostle was chosen and the lot fell upon him, it mentions the word lot in the singular.
Now here is the comment:
(Jimmy Swaggart)
(and the lot fell upon Matthias (probably means that the names of the two men were placed on two stones, pieces of parchment, or wood, and then placed into an urn, with one lot drawn out [Leviticus 16:8-9; Josh. 14:2]))
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Post by John on Sept 27, 2019 11:27:31 GMT -5
What I just read is kind of interesting, it is a comment from Jimmy and it makes sense. And notice what it says, before I mention the comment: Act 1:26 (26) And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles. It mentions their lots in plural form, but when the 12th apostle was chosen and the lot fell upon him, it mentions the word lot in the singular. Now here is the comment: (Jimmy Swaggart)(and the lot fell upon Matthias (probably means that the names of the two men were placed on two stones, pieces of parchment, or wood, and then placed into an urn, with one lot drawn out [Leviticus 16:8-9; Josh. 14:2])) I will say one thing for this method. It is a way to put it in God's hands. If God knows you will go with the name you pull out of an urn, He can cause you to choose the correct one.
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Post by Giller on Sept 27, 2019 12:18:32 GMT -5
Here is a bit more comment on this:
(Jimmy Swaggart)
(Acts 1:26 And they cast forth their lots (was similar to Urim and Thummin with which the Disciples would have been familiar and the Lord, in Old Testament times, gave leading to his People [Deut. 33:8-10; Num. 27:21] ))
And it appears to me, that it would have been no doubt that one person would have took out the lot singular, which God as you said could have lead the person to the right person, and obviously did.
This makes sense to me.
Anywhos one thing I do not bear witness with, is the way things have been set up in what is known as the church system, is this vote in pastor thing.
Pastors and so forth were chosen by God in the bible, they were not interviewed by a panel, but were prophesied over, and so on, and in this case a lot was chosen, only because there were 2 really good available choices, but also notice they prayed before doing so.
But this vote in thing, is not about knowing them who are among you, and seeking the Lord in prayer, but rather it has become a system of how to choose pastors.
Every body votes no matter if someone is able to discern or not, concerning such and such a person, this vote in, system is not biblical, it is in fact a type of democratic system, to were it is the choice of the people, but it is not suppose to be the choice of the people, it is suppose to be God's choice, and people need to have discernment concerning when shepherds are called of God or not, and in some cases it takes time.
Tit 1:4-5 (4) To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour. (5) For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
In this case, Titus was left in charge of ordaining elders and not the whole congregation.
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