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Post by John on May 23, 2018 18:48:17 GMT -5
Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had lamented him, and buried him in Ramah, even in his own city. And Saul had put away those that had familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land. And the Philistines gathered themselves together, and came and pitched in Shunem: and Saul gathered all Israel together, and they pitched in Gilboa. And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled. And when Saul inquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets. then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and inquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirt at Endor. 1 Samuel 28:3-7
Saul was never one to obey God, so the fact he sought after a woman with a familiar spirit to enquire of her should be no real surprise. God wasn't speaking to him, and he was getting ready to go into battle, and he wanted to know how things would go. What is surprising is what happened.
Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel. And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul. And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself. And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do. Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the lord is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy? And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbor, even to David: Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day. Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: The LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines. 1 Samuel 28:11-19
There is a lot of controversy over this passage because some believe this was really Samuel speaking to Saul and others believe it was a demonic spirit disguised as Samuel. There are reasons you can believe both ways. It is possible God could have allowed Samuel to return to prophesy to Saul judgment has come. The words of whoever it was came to pass. He said that the next day, Saul and his sons would be with him, but at that time, paradise and hell were both in the heart of the earth, and there was a gulf between him. He could have meant in the heart of the earth, rather than saying Saul would be in paradise along with his sons. If not for the fact that Jonathan was a just man, I could consider that the demon disguised as Samuel was saying they would be in hell with him the next day, but I feel like Jonathan went to paradise. Samuel or the demon rightly stated Saul's sin that led to his condition.
The problem with all of that is it begs the question, would God allow a witch with a familiar spirit to disquiet his prophet Samuel? The Bible states that Saul perceived it was Samuel based on the description the witch gave him of the man she saw, and after that it kept referring to him as Samuel. He came up as an old man. If a person dies at an old age, will they have an old looking body for eternity? I wouldn't think so. Still, I can see both sides. For the record, I believe it was a demon disguised as Samuel, but I would like different opinions, and why you believe as you do.
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Post by frienduff on May 23, 2018 22:17:04 GMT -5
Butero it just meant saul and them would be dead . That simple . And it really was Samuel. Lift those hands and praise the LORD . just praise the LORD .
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Post by Sister on May 23, 2018 22:37:20 GMT -5
Butero, it wasn't a demonic spirit speaking, neither was it Samuel, but it was God speaking directly to Saul through the "vision" he gave to the woman. That's all it was, ....a vision. God intervened and used that woman to let Saul know he was doomed.
God used Samuel in the vision because Saul loved Samuel, and knew it would have an effect on him. All came true, just as God foretold him in the vision that his time was up.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on May 24, 2018 8:01:28 GMT -5
If that wasn't really Samuel, then God lied to Saul and the Bible lied to us. Nowhere in that passage, not a speck, implies it wasn't Samuel. Other places in Scripture give us hints that someone was God/Jesus in disguise. Look at the Man who wrestled with Jacob. Look at the angels who visited Sodom. Scripture doesn't leave us guessing. And there's no place else in the Bible where God pretended to be Moses or Elijah or anyone else.
If God had sworn to stop speaking to Saul, then He wasn't going to speak to Saul, period. He had to contact Samuel because God would not answer him. That doesn't mean God could be maneuvered into speaking to Him through witchcraft.
People resist this passage because they don't like the idea of witches calling up prophets. But what, the alternative is that witches can call up God?? Even to say, oh well God did it just that one time to teach Saul a lesson... God Himself used the most wicked, vile sorcery, an action worthy of capital punishment -- to appear?? God will not even stand in such a place of demonic activity. She wasn't just a cute little herbalist who did a little folk magic. This woman was a witch who knew how to call up the dead. Such a scene would have been a demonic den of snakes. What shall God do next, appear at the behest of the antichrist to teach someone a lesson?? And break His vow of not speaking to them by appearing in such a way? And cover the whole thing up by pretending to be a famous prophet?
The simplest answer is that witchcraft has some degree of power to it. Whether we like it or not, witches who make a pact with Satan can share his powers. If the Holy Spirit can impart power to us, Satan can impart some power to his worshippers. The OT clearly says witches must be put to death. That's because they are a threat. It doesn't say witches are delusional idiots with no power.
We must remember what Jesus said about humans breaking into spiritual kingdoms. He said He is the entrance. Others who enter by some other means are thieves and robbers. He didn't say it's impossible to break into spiritual places by some other means, but He said it's robbery to do so. This witch is an example of a spiritual trespasser.
So the simples interpretation of that story is that some witch had made a deal with demonic forces to give her a smidgeon of spiritual power. She was looking for Samuel, and God permitted Samuel to indulge her so that Saul's wickedness would be complete. Up to that point, Saul had been disobedient but not the point of capital punishment. This crime condemned him to death.
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Post by 2fw8212a on May 24, 2018 8:42:32 GMT -5
If that wasn't really Samuel, then God lied to Saul and the Bible lied to us. OK, just to make things clear: God never lies."This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all." - 1 John 1:5
"Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God." - Mark 10:18
A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit."I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth." - 1 John 2:21"Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." - John 14:6God bless you in Jesus' name!
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Post by Sister on May 24, 2018 8:49:08 GMT -5
If that wasn't really Samuel, then God lied to Saul and the Bible lied to us. Nowhere in that passage, not a speck, implies it wasn't Samuel. Other places in Scripture give us hints that someone was God/Jesus in disguise. Look at the Man who wrestled with Jacob. Look at the angels who visited Sodom. Scripture doesn't leave us guessing. And there's no place else in the Bible where God pretended to be Moses or Elijah or anyone else. No God didn't lie. It was a vision that woman saw, and God showed her what he wanted to show her, that Saul's days were numbered. The dead don't know what's going on here. Their world does not interact with our world. Saul did wrong by going to that woman. He wanted some kind of comfort, some guidance. God jolted him. When witches call up the dead, and they receive communication, it is not really the dead they are speaking to, but impersonating spirits who know everything about us. In this case, God intervened for his purpose. That is different Pg, those who enter the kingdom of God through someone else are only taking over the earthly kingdom, where man has been put in charge. They take it by force meaning they put themselves in high positions inside the churches to deceive the flocks. They make up all their own rules. They come in through the back door, and not through Christ, the Word of God. Remember the story of Lazarus? Luke 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on May 24, 2018 9:24:11 GMT -5
We can't add things to the text that aren't there. The woman was convinced it was Samuel. Saul was convinced it was Samuel. Nothing in the text implies otherwise. It is sheer speculation to guess that God pretended to be Samuel. Two humans were led to believe this was Samuel. So, at the very least, God played a trick on them. At worst, God lied to them. There's no way around this. If God pretended to be Samuel in order to teach Saul a lesson, it means He deceived Saul. Then the text apparently tricks us too because it doesn't let us in on the joke. So everyone reading this at face value is being deceived. God doesn't work that way.
There was a gulf between the wicked dead in hell and the righteous dead in Abraham's bosom. Abraham said "between us and you there is a great gulf fixed." Not a great gulf between us and the living. The wicked man asked for permission to go see his friends. Abraham didn't tell him it's impossible for the dead to be raised up. Abraham didn't say no one can return. He simply said it would do no good for this man to return. Remember, Jesus was caught having a meeting with Moses and Elijah. Dead prophets can indeed be called back to Earth somehow.
Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. John 10:1-4
How anyone could think this means worldly power is beyond me.
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Post by John on May 24, 2018 13:09:06 GMT -5
Butero it just meant saul and them would be dead . That simple . And it really was Samuel. Lift those hands and praise the LORD . just praise the LORD . The very first thing it says in the passage is, "Now Samuel was dead." As such, you are saying we are complicating something simple when we worry over whether or not it means in paradise or hell. It just means among the dead. I can see that. You also are saying it was Samuel himself. Again, the simplest answer. Thanks.
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Post by John on May 24, 2018 13:14:25 GMT -5
Butero, it wasn't a demonic spirit speaking, neither was it Samuel, but it was God speaking directly to Saul through the "vision" he gave to the woman. That's all it was, ....a vision. God intervened and used that woman to let Saul know he was doomed. God used Samuel in the vision because Saul loved Samuel, and knew it would have an effect on him. All came true, just as God foretold him in the vision that his time was up. I have never heard anyone say it was God himself. My question is, is there a reason you think this, or is it just a feeling? Is there something we are overlooking, or is it based on a book not in the canon? I am just trying to understand how you arrived at it being God?
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Post by John on May 24, 2018 13:21:02 GMT -5
If that wasn't really Samuel, then God lied to Saul and the Bible lied to us. Nowhere in that passage, not a speck, implies it wasn't Samuel. Other places in Scripture give us hints that someone was God/Jesus in disguise. Look at the Man who wrestled with Jacob. Look at the angels who visited Sodom. Scripture doesn't leave us guessing. And there's no place else in the Bible where God pretended to be Moses or Elijah or anyone else. If God had sworn to stop speaking to Saul, then He wasn't going to speak to Saul, period. He had to contact Samuel because God would not answer him. That doesn't mean God could be maneuvered into speaking to Him through witchcraft. People resist this passage because they don't like the idea of witches calling up prophets. But what, the alternative is that witches can call up God?? Even to say, oh well God did it just that one time to teach Saul a lesson... God Himself used the most wicked, vile sorcery, an action worthy of capital punishment -- to appear?? God will not even stand in such a place of demonic activity. She wasn't just a cute little herbalist who did a little folk magic. This woman was a witch who knew how to call up the dead. Such a scene would have been a demonic den of snakes. What shall God do next, appear at the behest of the antichrist to teach someone a lesson?? And break His vow of not speaking to them by appearing in such a way? And cover the whole thing up by pretending to be a famous prophet? The simplest answer is that witchcraft has some degree of power to it. Whether we like it or not, witches who make a pact with Satan can share his powers. If the Holy Spirit can impart power to us, Satan can impart some power to his worshippers. The OT clearly says witches must be put to death. That's because they are a threat. It doesn't say witches are delusional idiots with no power. We must remember what Jesus said about humans breaking into spiritual kingdoms. He said He is the entrance. Others who enter by some other means are thieves and robbers. He didn't say it's impossible to break into spiritual places by some other means, but He said it's robbery to do so. This witch is an example of a spiritual trespasser. So the simples interpretation of that story is that some witch had made a deal with demonic forces to give her a smidgeon of spiritual power. She was looking for Samuel, and God permitted Samuel to indulge her so that Saul's wickedness would be complete. Up to that point, Saul had been disobedient but not the point of capital punishment. This crime condemned him to death. You are saying that the Bible said it is Samuel, so it is Samuel. It is hard to argue with that. I have always recognized that witches have real powers, but being able to disturb and bring back a saint of God is pretty powerful. That was in OT times when the saints were in paradise in the heart of the earth. Do you think witches can bring back loved ones in heaven? How about hell? Thanks.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on May 24, 2018 13:54:01 GMT -5
For the record, I do think it was an extraordinary event. Not every witch can do that every day. But we’re talking about the king of Israel in an OT world.
My personal belief is that OT Saints were transferred to heaven at the resurrection of Christ. I know others here do not believe this, but this is what I believe. A witch who is particularly skillful can do some surprising things. But I don’t believe they can call dead saints at this point.
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Post by Sister on May 24, 2018 20:28:58 GMT -5
Butero, it wasn't a demonic spirit speaking, neither was it Samuel, but it was God speaking directly to Saul through the "vision" he gave to the woman. That's all it was, ....a vision. God intervened and used that woman to let Saul know he was doomed. God used Samuel in the vision because Saul loved Samuel, and knew it would have an effect on him. All came true, just as God foretold him in the vision that his time was up. I have never heard anyone say it was God himself. My question is, is there a reason you think this, or is it just a feeling? Is there something we are overlooking, or is it based on a book not in the canon? I am just trying to understand how you arrived at it being God? I am saying that God gave that woman a vision is all. Saul requested she bring up Samuel. The woman conjures up Samuel at his request, as they do, ....and she sees him IN HER VISION....as it normally goes. and Saul "perceived" it was Samuel speaking. 1 Samuel 28:16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?
God is taunting Saul.
1 Samuel 28:17 And the LORD hath done to him (David), as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:
God is reminding Saul he already spoke to him through Samuel. It doesn't matter who was speaking IN THE VISION, or any vision from God. God can make a cat or dog speak in a vision if he wanted to. It's the message that's important, because it's coming from God. All is in his hands. He decides. and God was not happy with Saul consulting a medium. 1 Chronicles 10:13 So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it; Regarding the apocrypha and what it touches on regarding the dead, it agrees with the Canon, that Jesus after his crucifixion, went down into Hades and opened the prison gates. No man had ever done this before. The evil spirits in that place guarding the prison doors so that none could ever escape, were so surprised and absolutely filled with fear when Christ came down there. All souls prior to this whether they were good men or not went to hades which is a place all spirits go to await judgement. Christ who is the only one that was given the keys to death and hell, after what he accomplished on the cross released certain souls and replaced them in Paradise. Another holding bay,.... for those not sentenced to the 2nd death. They are not resurrected, they are not alive, they are still in the land of the dead, and have nothing to do with the living. In a totally different dimension having nothing to do with anything under the sun. That's what I understand.
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Post by frienduff on May 24, 2018 20:56:55 GMT -5
If that wasn't really Samuel, then God lied to Saul and the Bible lied to us. Nowhere in that passage, not a speck, implies it wasn't Samuel. Other places in Scripture give us hints that someone was God/Jesus in disguise. Look at the Man who wrestled with Jacob. Look at the angels who visited Sodom. Scripture doesn't leave us guessing. And there's no place else in the Bible where God pretended to be Moses or Elijah or anyone else. If God had sworn to stop speaking to Saul, then He wasn't going to speak to Saul, period. He had to contact Samuel because God would not answer him. That doesn't mean God could be maneuvered into speaking to Him through witchcraft. People resist this passage because they don't like the idea of witches calling up prophets. But what, the alternative is that witches can call up God?? Even to say, oh well God did it just that one time to teach Saul a lesson... God Himself used the most wicked, vile sorcery, an action worthy of capital punishment -- to appear?? God will not even stand in such a place of demonic activity. She wasn't just a cute little herbalist who did a little folk magic. This woman was a witch who knew how to call up the dead. Such a scene would have been a demonic den of snakes. What shall God do next, appear at the behest of the antichrist to teach someone a lesson?? And break His vow of not speaking to them by appearing in such a way? And cover the whole thing up by pretending to be a famous prophet? The simplest answer is that witchcraft has some degree of power to it. Whether we like it or not, witches who make a pact with Satan can share his powers. If the Holy Spirit can impart power to us, Satan can impart some power to his worshippers. The OT clearly says witches must be put to death. That's because they are a threat. It doesn't say witches are delusional idiots with no power. We must remember what Jesus said about humans breaking into spiritual kingdoms. He said He is the entrance. Others who enter by some other means are thieves and robbers. He didn't say it's impossible to break into spiritual places by some other means, but He said it's robbery to do so. This witch is an example of a spiritual trespasser. So the simples interpretation of that story is that some witch had made a deal with demonic forces to give her a smidgeon of spiritual power. She was looking for Samuel, and God permitted Samuel to indulge her so that Saul's wickedness would be complete. Up to that point, Saul had been disobedient but not the point of capital punishment. This crime condemned him to death.
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Post by frienduff on May 24, 2018 20:59:36 GMT -5
Sister you spot on . Every time something was EVIL , the bible says it was . The bible said Samuel, it meant Samuel, had it been an evil spirit the BIBLE would have made it clear . It always does . This is why we need not to over think or dwell on things . It was Samuel, the bible always makes clear when something , spirit or whatever is evil , it would have said and the witch conjoured up a divining spirit that looked like saul , or etc , if that had been the case . It was Samuel. the bible makes things very clear .
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Post by John on May 25, 2018 8:08:35 GMT -5
This is for those who think it was the real Samuel. He came as an old man. Do you think we remain as we were in this life in heaven? Does a 2 year old that died remain that way? Does a 90 year old remain that way? If they do, does that change when Jesus returns? Thanks.
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