PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on May 25, 2018 8:55:21 GMT -5
When a person returns to Earth after they die, they conform to their Earthly body as it was last seen. People who got resurrected simply resumed life in their body as it was. Jesus came back to a body with the scars. Lazarus came back looking like himself. I can't imagine why it would be different through a vision. Samuel as a person on Earth looked a certain way.
That doesn't mean we walk around looking a certain way in the afterlife. It just means we appear on Earth as we always appeared. We don't get glorified bodies until heavenly resurrection.
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Post by frienduff on May 25, 2018 8:58:09 GMT -5
Butero. you loved . if we look at all the bible, it always makes plain when something is evil or not . Look at what Samuel said he said IF GOD don't hear you , I cant help you . and everything that Samuel said , came to pass . He told saul what would happen. He was even aggravated at saul for having had him disquieted from REST .
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Post by tlsitd on May 25, 2018 10:45:33 GMT -5
I agree with Frienduff and PG4Him, that the medium did indeed summon the spirit of Samuel, and that it was not a demonic illusion. There is nothing in this passage to suggest that it was not the spirit of Samuel himself, as the Scriptures say. Just because God allowed it to be done doesn't mean He was pleased about it, and Samuel's message to Saul seems to me to be the confirmation of His displeasure---God's ultimate condemnation of Saul, not just for having disobeyed Him in the matter of the Amalekites, but also for having consulted a medium, which he was forbidden to do.
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Post by John on May 25, 2018 11:32:42 GMT -5
The text does call him Samuel. He spoke the truth. It very well could have been. It is one thing to argue a point when the Word is in clear agreement with me, and quite another to oppose the plain meaning.
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Post by Sister on May 28, 2018 7:07:41 GMT -5
For anyone that thinks I'm confused I am confused about this? To think that God gave witches who commit abominations against him, power over all the dead souls, to bring them out from that world into this world is truly amazing! Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
I am pretty sure that Satan himself never had this authority.
If one has the keys of hell and of death, he can let whoever out at any time? Only Christ was given that power after his resurrection.
Samuel was dead. When we are dead, we know nothing about what's going on in this world. They are two separate worlds.
Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
This rule applies to all who die. This is called the first death....when our heart stops beating.
Ecclesiastes 3:1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
Ecclesiastes 3:2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on May 28, 2018 10:01:01 GMT -5
We have two separate issues here. One deals with resurrection/visitation from the afterlife, and the other deals with witchcraft.
Regardless of whether dead people were active or inert in Sheol, resurrection was a thing in the OT. So we know they could be brought back. Samuel does seem to confirm he was at rest when he accuses Saul of disturbing him in verse 15. So the thoughts of being "asleep" in Sheol and being available to return are not mutually exclusive.
The text doesn't say Samuel was watching from Sheol. Samuel doesn't introduce any new information on his own. Saul tells him about the Philistine army. Samuel remembers what he prophesied to Saul, pieces together this new Philistine threat, and predicts what will happen. None of this contradicts his state of being at rest in Sheol.
Then we move to the issue of a witch being able to recall the dead. Number one, this was an OT event long before Jesus died on the cross. Number two, there was nothing in the OT that said seances didn't work. God put capital punishment on those sins for a reason. They were not just foolish mistakes, but deadly spiritual crimes. They were true abominations.
Why did God allow this to happen? Because, as we mentioned before, this was a crime that came with capital punishment. This was Saul's death sentence. We see confirmation of this later:
So Saul died for his unfaithfulness which he had committed against the Lord, because he did not keep the word of the Lord, and also because he consulted a medium for guidance. But he did not inquire of the Lord; therefore He killed him, and turned the kingdom over to David the son of Jesse. (1 Chronicles 10:13-14)
Remember that in verse 10 Saul promises clemency for the witch. He doesn't just say she won't get arrested. He says as the Lord lives no punishment will come upon you. Saul transferred the crime to himself. At that moment, the witch became a mere worker at the behest of the king of Israel.
What better time to announce the sentence than in the middle of the crime? God allows Saul to get his wish, the witch seems more surprised than Saul because it worked, and Samuel finishes his task of getting David on the throne. No need for God to pretend to be anyone.
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Post by John on May 28, 2018 10:34:22 GMT -5
For anyone that thinks I'm confused I am confused about this? To think that God gave witches who commit abominations against him, power over all the dead souls, to bring them out from that world into this world is truly amazing! Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
I am pretty sure that Satan himself never had this authority.
If one has the keys of hell and of death, he can let whoever out at any time? Only Christ was given that power after his resurrection.
Samuel was dead. When we are dead, we know nothing about what's going on in this world. They are two separate worlds.
Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
This rule applies to all who die. This is called the first death....when our heart stops beating.
Ecclesiastes 3:1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
Ecclesiastes 3:2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
That is the biggest objection to it being Samuel. It would mean witches were able to bring back the spirit of dead believers if they were powerful enough, or that for some reason, God allowed it in this one instance.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on May 28, 2018 10:43:49 GMT -5
That is the biggest objection to it being Samuel. It would mean witches were able to bring back the spirit of dead believers if they were powerful enough, or that for some reason, God allowed it in this one instance. It's a hard pill to swallow that Satan's kingdom bestows real powers onto witches and such... but we can't deny reality in Scripture just because we don't like it. We need to keep in mind what we're dealing with in the antichrist. He will perform signs and wonders so persuasive that he'll come right up to the edge of deceiving the elect. This isn't about curing a few headaches. We're talking major signs and wonders. When we paint ourselves into a corner that Satan's minions cannot do this or that, we will weaken our discernment.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on May 28, 2018 11:03:09 GMT -5
Just to add another layer of intrigue to this...
En Dor was a city in Manasseh. Ephraim and Manasseh were the only tribes of Israel not born to Jacob. They were born in Egypt. Genesis 44 suggests that Joseph used metal tools to practice divination in Egypt.
When they had gone out of the city, and were not yet far off, Joseph said to his steward, “Get up, follow the men; and when you overtake them, say to them, ‘Why have you repaid evil for good? Is not this the one from which my lord drinks, and with which he indeed practices divination? You have done evil in so doing.’ ” (44:4-5)
And Joseph said to them, “What deed is this you have done? Did you not know that such a man as I can certainly practice divination?” (v. 15)
Manasseh was a tribe that never succeeded in driving out all the Canaanites.
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Post by Sister on May 28, 2018 11:07:14 GMT -5
Regardless of whether dead people were active or inert in Sheol, resurrection was a thing in the OT. PG How was resurrection a thing in the OT? I don't know what you mean? Have you got any examples?
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Post by Sister on May 28, 2018 11:30:02 GMT -5
For anyone that thinks I'm confused I am confused about this? To think that God gave witches who commit abominations against him, power over all the dead souls, to bring them out from that world into this world is truly amazing! Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
I am pretty sure that Satan himself never had this authority.
If one has the keys of hell and of death, he can let whoever out at any time? Only Christ was given that power after his resurrection.
Samuel was dead. When we are dead, we know nothing about what's going on in this world. They are two separate worlds.
Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
This rule applies to all who die. This is called the first death....when our heart stops beating.
Ecclesiastes 3:1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
Ecclesiastes 3:2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
I'm not so sure about God allowing it in this instance. Ecclesiastes 9:10 is pretty clear. Once we are dead, there is nothing going on. It wouldn't make sense to wake up Samuel from the dead when God can just tell Saul himself through the vision using Samuel the prophet whom Saul knew, like he would use one in a dream.
A scenario like this happened in the book of Enoch which is one of the reasons the book was attacked. Noah's father Lamech freaked out because Noah was born very beautiful with white hair and very white skin. He though that maybe he was a child of the fallen angels. He called up Enoch who had already left this earth. I found it strange but then realised Enoch never died, and that it was in a vision that Lamech saw him. So that ones possible.
Another example happened in the book of Adam and Eve. This nearly put me off, but I realised it was only a vision, and God was getting a message through. It doesn't mean that God lied, but he can create whatever vision he wants to in order to send through a message.
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Post by John on May 28, 2018 11:46:43 GMT -5
I'm not so sure about God allowing it in this instance. Ecclesiastes 9:10 is pretty clear. Once we are dead, there is nothing going on. It wouldn't make sense to wake up Samuel from the dead when God can just tell Saul himself through the vision using Samuel the prophet whom Saul knew, like he would use one in a dream.
A scenario like this happened in the book of Enoch which is one of the reasons the book was attacked. Noah's father Lamech freaked out because Noah was born very beautiful with white hair and very white skin. He though that maybe he was a child of the fallen angels. He called up Enoch who had already left this earth. I found it strange but then realised Enoch never died, and that it was in a vision that Lamech saw him. So that ones possible.
Another example happened in the book of Adam and Eve. This nearly put me off, but I realised it was only a vision, and God was getting a message through. It doesn't mean that God lied, but he can create whatever vision he wants to in order to send through a message. The body sleeps in the ground, but not the spirit. Lazarus knew what was going on in paradise, while the rich sinner was tormented in hell.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on May 28, 2018 11:57:49 GMT -5
How was resurrection a thing in the OT? I don't know what you mean? Have you got any examples? Elijah and the widow with the cruz of oil... And he stretched himself out on the child three times, and cried out to the Lord and said, “O Lord my God, I pray, let this child’s soul come back to him.” Then the Lord heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came back to him, and he revived. And Elijah took the child and brought him down from the upper room into the house, and gave him to his mother. And Elijah said, “See, your son lives!” Then the woman said to Elijah, “Now by this I know that you are a man of God, and that the word of the Lord in your mouth is the truth.”-- 1 Kings 17:21-24 Also remember that Jesus resurrected three people (Lazarus, widow of Nain's son, Jairus' daughter) before He invaded the grave Himself. No one could resurrect a person in living color without God's power. But it was indeed possible to recall a person from the grave.
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Post by Sister on May 28, 2018 17:33:30 GMT -5
Just to add another layer of intrigue to this... En Dor was a city in Manasseh. Ephraim and Manasseh were the only tribes of Israel not born to Jacob. They were born in Egypt. Genesis 44 suggests that Joseph used metal tools to practice divination in Egypt. When they had gone out of the city, and were not yet far off, Joseph said to his steward, “Get up, follow the men; and when you overtake them, say to them, ‘Why have you repaid evil for good? Is not this the one from which my lord drinks, and with which he indeed practices divination? You have done evil in so doing.’ ” (44:4-5)And Joseph said to them, “What deed is this you have done? Did you not know that such a man as I can certainly practice divination?” (v. 15)Manasseh was a tribe that never succeeded in driving out all the Canaanites. PG I can assure you that Joseph did not practice divination, but was not revealing his true identity to his brothers and playing a little game with them, which is why he said that!
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Post by Sister on May 28, 2018 17:34:39 GMT -5
How was resurrection a thing in the OT? I don't know what you mean? Have you got any examples? Elijah and the widow with the cruz of oil... And he stretched himself out on the child three times, and cried out to the Lord and said, “O Lord my God, I pray, let this child’s soul come back to him.” Then the Lord heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came back to him, and he revived. And Elijah took the child and brought him down from the upper room into the house, and gave him to his mother. And Elijah said, “See, your son lives!” Then the woman said to Elijah, “Now by this I know that you are a man of God, and that the word of the Lord in your mouth is the truth.”-- 1 Kings 17:21-24 Also remember that Jesus resurrected three people (Lazarus, widow of Nain's son, Jairus' daughter) before He invaded the grave Himself. No one could resurrect a person in living color without God's power. But it was indeed possible to recall a person from the grave. Yes yes, I forgot about that one, thank you! Praise the Lord. But that was not a resurrection, only a revival of the flesh, in both cases. In the resurrection you cannot die again. After Lazarus was revived, they tried to kill him again.
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