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Post by John on Dec 25, 2018 10:51:24 GMT -5
I have wrestled back and forth over this question for decades. Was the Bible simply indicating that a demon pretended to be Samuel, or did God allow Samuel to come back to pronounce judgment on Saul? The Bible says the witch had a familiar spirit, not that a familiar spirit spoke through her. If it was Samuel, God himself had to have allowed this to take place and sent Samuel on a final mission as his prophet. I don't see it so much as God allowing a witch to force him to come back as God being angry with Saul and sending Samuel back to pronounce judgment.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Dec 25, 2018 10:55:02 GMT -5
And enquired not of the Lord: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse. — 1 Chronicles 10:14
The Lord is the one who killed Saul. This is indisputable. Nothing in Scripture says Saul died in battle because a demon pretending to be Samuel made it happen for a false sign.
Therefore the only other possibility is that a demon took an educated guess that Saul would die for using a witch. But then what? We have demons going around impersonating prophets and correctly predicting the will of God, and God just allows this to happen, and then God even makes the event comes to pass clearly from His hand, without ever once dropping a hint that something was amiss?
We have two options here. Either God is blatantly letting a demon prophesy of His coming works, or a witch figured out how to contact the dead, and God sent Samuel through that action to confront him.
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Post by Giller on Dec 25, 2018 11:03:23 GMT -5
Oh no doubt it was the judgment of God.
But also it makes me wonder how discernful are demons.
Is there times were they try to discern what God will do, and sometimes make an accurate prediction?
And was there signs among men that may have shown things possibly leading this way?
(***Notice that when the woman diviner of Endor called up Samuel, he showed up as an old man, we know that Samuel's body would have been in the grave at this time and not in paradise, for it was his spirit and soul that was in paradise.
So would a spirit show up as old?
Yet at one point God allowed for Elijah and Moses to show up before some of the disciples, we know that Elijah's body, soul and spirit would have showed up before them, but concerning Moses, it would have been just his soul and spirit, yet notice that it does not say that Moses showed up as old.***)
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Post by Giller on Dec 25, 2018 11:06:26 GMT -5
I am glad that we can at least talk about these things, and I am glad that we are being respectful, which does not always happen at different forums.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Dec 25, 2018 11:14:34 GMT -5
Oh no doubt it was the judgment of God. But also it makes me wonder how discernful are demons. Is there times were they try to discern what God will do, and sometimes make an accurate prediction? And was there signs among men that may have shown things possibly leading this way? Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. — John 8:44Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders — 2 Thessalonians 2:9Why in the world would a demon take on the appearance of a prophet in order to be completely truthful, practically doing God a favor here, by admitting that Samuel was right about everything and this activity would bring God’s judgment? Not one thing spoken in that passage was a lie. So now demons are promoting God’s law? To what end? For some far-fetched hope that it would encourage more witchcraft?
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Post by frienduff on Dec 25, 2018 11:35:08 GMT -5
Here is one more question I would humbly ask: why would a demon pretending to be Samuel give a prophecy of God’s judgment that came true? Was Saul’s death in battle a product of false signs and wonders, or was it from the hand of God? I know the idea here is that the demon pretended to be Samuel, but that was a dead-on acting job, even to the point of predicting God’s will. I Fully agree . Feel free to invesitage the entire bible . Their is no place where evil was done that it was not made clear it was evil. Had it been a demon or a familiar spirit that had been raised , REST assured THE BIBLE would have made that VERY CLEAR . as it does IN EVERY SINGLE PLACE . Not only that , but why would a demon have even rebuked saul for having it RAISED UP , WHY would it have said IF GOD has abandoned you , THEN HOW can I HELP YOU. IT would have said OH YES I CAN GIVE YOU WHAT YOU NEED . IT WAS SAMUEL , for a demon would have desired the preeminence , it would not have pointed to GOD at all , but rather at itself . Every time I am looking for a post to read and see this title , it makes me cringe . IT was Samuel . The bible always makes it clear .
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Post by frienduff on Dec 25, 2018 11:42:19 GMT -5
Oh no doubt it was the judgment of God. But also it makes me wonder how discernful are demons. Is there times were they try to discern what God will do, and sometimes make an accurate prediction? And was there signs among men that may have shown things possibly leading this way? Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. — John 8:44Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders — 2 Thessalonians 2:9Why in the world would a demon take on the appearance of a prophet in order to be completely truthful, practically doing God a favor here, by admitting that Samuel was right about everything and this activity would bring God’s judgment? Not one thing spoken in that passage was a lie. So now demons are promoting God’s law? To what end? For some far-fetched hope that it would encourage more witchcraft? While demons CAN take on the appearance of light , or appear as righteous , they will not Point to GOD , nor rebuke the one who summoned them . The dark angels as well as satan , desire all glory . Yet Samuel says very clear, IF THE LORD has forsaken you , SURELY I cant do anything . A demon would never have said that . Here is what a demon would have said , OH the Lord surely has not forsaken you .........etc etc , I have been raised to guide you or etc . NEVER would it have said , IF THE LORD cant help you , I CANT HELP YOU . not once .
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Post by John on Dec 25, 2018 12:27:48 GMT -5
Here is one more question I would humbly ask: why would a demon pretending to be Samuel give a prophecy of God’s judgment that came true? Was Saul’s death in battle a product of false signs and wonders, or was it from the hand of God? I know the idea here is that the demon pretended to be Samuel, but that was a dead-on acting job, even to the point of predicting God’s will. I Fully agree . Feel free to invesitage the entire bible . Their is no place where evil was done that it was not made clear it was evil. Had it been a demon or a familiar spirit that had been raised , REST assured THE BIBLE would have made that VERY CLEAR . as it does IN EVERY SINGLE PLACE . Not only that , but why would a demon have even rebuked saul for having it RAISED UP , WHY would it have said IF GOD has abandoned you , THEN HOW can I HELP YOU. IT would have said OH YES I CAN GIVE YOU WHAT YOU NEED . IT WAS SAMUEL , for a demon would have desired the preeminence , it would not have pointed to GOD at all , but rather at itself . Every time I am looking for a post to read and see this title , it makes me cringe . IT was Samuel . The bible always makes it clear .
While it may seem obvious to some it was Samuel, this has been a subject of contention as long as I can remember. I started out believing it was Samuel, and then I was talked into the notion God wouldn't allow a witch to bring him back. Having read all the responses in this thread, I am back to it being Samuel, based on one thing, that is what the Bible says. So much of the time, people will ignore the plain meaning because they just don't want to accept it.
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Post by frienduff on Dec 25, 2018 12:34:08 GMT -5
That's right butero . PRAISE THE HOLY LORD . Let that be our entire heart . IF its what the BIBLE SAYS , then IT IS TRUE . For our LORD does not author confusion . HE makes it plain . You throw those hands up butero and all , and just praise the LORD .
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Post by Giller on Dec 25, 2018 14:02:11 GMT -5
Right now I just want to show forth proof that a demon can say the truth, of course they always have some purpose behind it, yet listen to what this demon said:
Act 16:16-18 (16) And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying: (17) The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation. (18) And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.
Notice what was said of Paul and company, that they were the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.
That was a demon through this woman, which Paul commanded to come out of the woman.
Concerning the Samuel issue, the only thing I could think of is, if it was a demon, how he could have used the truth and brought deception here, is in making people believe that God uses divination, and some people actually use this verse to show that God is for divination.
Right now I am not arguing the fact if it is Samuel or not, just the possibility of some type of deception.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Dec 25, 2018 14:31:31 GMT -5
Right now I just want to show forth proof that a demon can say the truth, of course they always have some purpose behind it, yet listen to what this demon said: Act 16:16-18 (16) And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying: (17) The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation. (18) And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour. Notice what was said of Paul and company, that they were the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation. That was a demon through this woman, which Paul commanded to come out of the woman. Concerning the Samuel issue, the only thing I could think of is, if it was a demon, how he could have used the truth and brought deception here, is in making people believe that God uses divination, and some people actually use this verse to show that God is for divination. Right now I am not arguing the fact if it is Samuel or not, just the possibility of some type of deception. Who is the ‘us’ in that passage? Was the divining spirit being offered salvation? Or was the girl yearning to be free? Paul didn’t rebuke the girl; he only told the spirit to leave her. What good would it do an evil spirit to say God had brought salvation to a city? If the evil spirit wanted to discredit Paul, this was not a smart plan.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Dec 25, 2018 14:35:18 GMT -5
As far as a demon trying to promote witchcraft in 1 Samuel, the view of it being a demon actually promotes it more. Shall we actually preach that you can call up a demon to give you a reasonably accurate prediction of God’s next move? How does that discourage witchcraft?
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Dec 25, 2018 14:48:04 GMT -5
(Hopes Giller doesn’t get angry at her)
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Post by Giller on Dec 25, 2018 14:58:59 GMT -5
Right now I just want to show forth proof that a demon can say the truth, of course they always have some purpose behind it, yet listen to what this demon said: Act 16:16-18 (16) And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying: (17) The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation. (18) And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour. Notice what was said of Paul and company, that they were the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation. That was a demon through this woman, which Paul commanded to come out of the woman. Concerning the Samuel issue, the only thing I could think of is, if it was a demon, how he could have used the truth and brought deception here, is in making people believe that God uses divination, and some people actually use this verse to show that God is for divination. Right now I am not arguing the fact if it is Samuel or not, just the possibility of some type of deception. Who is the ‘us’ in that passage? Was the divining spirit being offered salvation? Or was the girl yearning to be free? Paul didn’t rebuke the girl; he only told the spirit to leave her. What good would it do an evil spirit to say God had brought salvation to a city? If the evil spirit wanted to discredit Paul, this was not a smart plan. The same followed Paul and us, that is Paul and his companions. She was speaking this for many days, yet it grieved Paul, which he obviously discerned it was a demon, for after he commanded it to come out of her. Here is a comment on this: (Joseph Benson)
(Acts 16:17-18
The same followed Paul and us — Luke, Silas, and Timothy; and cried, saying — With great earnestness of voice and gesture; These men are the servants of the most high God, &c. — A great truth: but they did not need, nor would accept of, such testimony. And this she did many succeeding days. But, at length, Paul being wearied with so tedious a circumstance, and grieved — Under an apprehension that this stratagem of Satan might lead the people to imagine that the preachers of the gospel acted in a confederacy with the evil spirit, to whom the heathen worship was addressed; turned — Toward the damsel; and said to the spirit — By whose emotion she spake; I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ — Whose gospel I preach; to come out of her. And he came out the same hour — So that she had never afterward such kind of supernatural agitations, nor pretended to any gift of prophecy for the future.)(***The woman said these words to Paul many days , about him and his companions "being servants of God which shew us the way of salvation", yet even though these words were good, it grieved Paul, and Paul did not rebuke the lady, but commanded the spirit behind what was said to come out, which grieved him. And it is hard to know in what way these things were said, and in what tone, but obviously Paul sensed a spirit behind it, that is very clear, he did not cast out this demon for no reason.
And I think evil spirits are much more manipulative than what we think. Maybe if we would have been there in that moment we could have heard the tone it was spoken in, and in what way it was said, and understood what was happening.
Just because we do not understand something does not mean it did not happen the way it says.***)
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Post by Giller on Dec 25, 2018 15:01:14 GMT -5
(Hopes Giller doesn’t get angry at her) I have no idea what that means
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