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Post by John on Nov 26, 2019 7:14:24 GMT -5
I made this offer before, but there were no takers. I decided to give it another try. If anyone wants to have a serious discussion on this topic, sticking only with a Bible based discussion in context, I am willing to allow it in this thread only. What will not be allowed is any type of accusation against those you don't agree with, continuously repeating catch phrases, repeating the same verses over and over and over again, name calling, attacks against this forum, promotion of teachers that you like or links to videos or web-sites. What you can do is present scripture that defends your position, explain what you believe it means, allow the other person to give their take on it, and move on to your next point, I do think a single follow up by both sides is reasonable, but not continuous bickering.
Another thing I want to point out is that saying that one verse cannot mean what the other person says it does because it would contradict another verse or passage is not a valid argument. People do that all the time because they are trying to make everything agree with their point of view. In other words, if you believe in OSAS, you will claim that a verse that goes against it can't mean what the other person says it does because it disagrees with verses they claim prove OSAS. The other person could just as easily say their OSAS verses can't mean what they seem to say because they disagree with their other verses that show OSAS is wrong. Make your best case, and move on.
Examples of things that are not going to be allowed. No catch phrases like "faith plus nothing." No accusations that someone is full of fear or believes in a works based salvation and is full of pride. No arguments that someone is using poor hermeneutics or exegesis. I say that not only because we don't believe in that pagan system of interpretation, but because that is nothing but an opinion. It holds absolutely no weight. The question is, can anyone discuss this hot button issue without using these kind of tactics? If a person really believes they are correct, and the Bible supports their beliefs, I don't see why this should be any problem. Also let me remind everyone that just because you can come up with an interpretation that defends your view, that doesn't mean it is the correct interpretation. It is not the end of the story because one teacher found a way to make the Bible say what they want it to. This is to be a discussion, not a debate where we fight to the spiritual death and the winner is the one that gets the other side to shut up. I am giving both sides a place to explain why they believe they are right.
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Post by John on Nov 26, 2019 7:29:23 GMT -5
Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
1 Corinthians 9:24-27
I thought this was a good passage to start with. We know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Paul was a born again Christian, yet even Paul says that he brings his body into subjection because if he doesn't, he could preach the gospel to others, and still be a castaway. The word castaway here is from the Greek word adokimos, and it means unapproved, rejected, worthless, reprobate. This born again man who would be the author of most of the New Testament knew that if he didn't continue to live in a way that was pleasing to God, he would be rejected. This is clearly speaking of him losing salvation, not his ministry. The way he lives won't stop him from preaching, but it could cost him his eternal soul.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2019 8:20:11 GMT -5
There are both assurances as well as warnings in scripture, and I believe it's important not to ignore either one or overemphasize one over the other.
Assurances are to assure contrite souls who are conscious of their unworthiness and sinfulness, that the Lord Jesus has power and strength to save unto eternal life. They are not meant to be taken as unconditional false assurances for those who take salvation for granted...i think that is where many get into trouble with the promise and assurance side of things. Different things in scripture are written for different purposes and if we don't understand the purpose and what problem the scripture is specifically addressing, so to speak, we can misconstrue it and get the wrong idea because of having the scripture standing on a wrong premise.
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Post by Just Believe on Dec 27, 2019 23:38:05 GMT -5
Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
1 Corinthians 9:24-27
I thought this was a good passage to start with. We know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Paul was a born again Christian, yet even Paul says that he brings his body into subjection because if he doesn't, he could preach the gospel to others, and still be a castaway. The word castaway here is from the Greek word adokimos, and it means unapproved, rejected, worthless, reprobate. This born again man who would be the author of most of the New Testament knew that if he didn't continue to live in a way that was pleasing to God, he would be rejected. This is clearly speaking of him losing salvation, not his ministry. The way he lives won't stop him from preaching, but it could cost him his eternal soul. It is hard to imagine that Paul could have been a castaway, since he was a chosen vessel, but you are right. Paul did say that he could be a castaway if he didn't keep under his body and bring it into subjection. That is all based on his behavior. Is salvation dependent on what we do and not just faith?
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777
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Post by 777 on Dec 27, 2019 23:48:01 GMT -5
Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
1 Corinthians 9:24-27
I thought this was a good passage to start with. We know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Paul was a born again Christian, yet even Paul says that he brings his body into subjection because if he doesn't, he could preach the gospel to others, and still be a castaway. The word castaway here is from the Greek word adokimos, and it means unapproved, rejected, worthless, reprobate. This born again man who would be the author of most of the New Testament knew that if he didn't continue to live in a way that was pleasing to God, he would be rejected. This is clearly speaking of him losing salvation, not his ministry. The way he lives won't stop him from preaching, but it could cost him his eternal soul. It is hard to imagine that Paul could have been a castaway, since he was a chosen vessel, but you are right. Paul did say that he could be a castaway if he didn't keep under his body and bring it into subjection. That is all based on his behavior. Is salvation dependent on what we do and not just faith? We are saved by faith in Jesus Christ, but based on what Paul says in this passage alone, it shows that we can lose our salvation if we don't live right.
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Post by Just Believe on Dec 27, 2019 23:52:03 GMT -5
It is hard to imagine that Paul could have been a castaway, since he was a chosen vessel, but you are right. Paul did say that he could be a castaway if he didn't keep under his body and bring it into subjection. That is all based on his behavior. Is salvation dependent on what we do and not just faith? We are saved by faith in Jesus Christ, but based on what Paul says in this passage alone, it shows that we can lose our salvation if we don't live right. Does that make salvation works based? That is what everyone always says if you say we can lose salvation based on behavior.
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777
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Post by 777 on Dec 27, 2019 23:58:29 GMT -5
We are saved by faith in Jesus Christ, but based on what Paul says in this passage alone, it shows that we can lose our salvation if we don't live right. Does that make salvation works based? That is what everyone always says if you say we can lose salvation based on behavior. "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?" James 2:17-20
We can't be saved unless we first believe in Jesus Christ, but if we are really saved, good works will follow. True faith produces good works and a change in our lifestyle.
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Post by Just Believe on Dec 31, 2019 8:49:49 GMT -5
I admit this sounds like a weak rebuttal, but I did hear someone say that Paul's concern was losing his ministry and somehow being a castaway like that. Is that possible?
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777
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Post by 777 on Dec 31, 2019 9:05:59 GMT -5
Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
1 Corinthians 9:24-27
Hello Just Believe. In my opinion, it is not even possible this is Paul having a concern over losing his ministry. Look at the context. We are all running this race for what? An incorruptible crown. The prize Paul is speaking of is eternal life. He did not enter the race to qualify to have a ministry. He has that already. That is not his incorruptible crown. He is not preaching to others to qualify them to be Apostles, but he is preaching the way of salvation to them. The only thing that makes any sense is that Paul is saying that he watches how he lives his life, so that after winning others to Christ, not qualifying them for Apostleship, he won't lose his eternal life or salvation.
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Post by Just Believe on Dec 31, 2019 12:29:46 GMT -5
I admit that it appears that Paul was concerned over being a castaway, meaning losing his salvation. Another scripture that looks to me like it says you cannot lose your salvation is in John 10:25-30.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one.
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777
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Post by 777 on Dec 31, 2019 12:57:38 GMT -5
I admit that it appears that Paul was concerned over being a castaway, meaning losing his salvation. Another scripture that looks to me like it says you cannot lose your salvation is in John 10:25-30.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one.
The key here is that Jesus' sheep hear his voice and they follow him. They are people that are obedient, not just people who happen to believe Jesus is the Son of God. Those people are given eternal life and will never perish. This doesn't in any way say they are guaranteed to go to heaven if they do not hear his voice and continue to follow him. It does say no man can pluck them out of God's hand, but it never says a person cannot walk away.
It is my view that if a man walks away, they are not of the people that the Father gave to Jesus. They may believe and walk with him for a time, and even feel confident they are saved, but they were never in that group this passage is talking about. They were not truly of the elect. Many think they are saved, but they are not. That doesn't mean that if they died while faithfully serving the Lord, they would go to hell. It means that they are not really of the elect, and over time, they are going to fall away. They won't endure till the end, and they will be lost. That is why the Bible says to make our calling and election sure.
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Post by Just Believe on Jan 2, 2020 22:46:06 GMT -5
I was talking to someone at church, and something they mentioned to me was how Paul told the Corinthians to put someone out of the church because of their sin. It was in 1 Corinthians 5:5, where he says "To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." My friend told me that when a Christian sins, they may lose rewards in heaven or die prematurely, but their soul will be saved no matter what they do because they can't lose their salvation. What do you all think about this verse?
I have been asking questions about verses of scripture that say we can't lose salvation, and have been surprised how weak most of the arguments are. I hear a lot of preaching about works based salvation and people who think they can lose salvation are trying to save themselves and prideful and things like that, but when it comes to scripture that plainly says we can't lose salvation, they don't have much. They did make one argument that seemed pretty strong, and that was about how when we get saved, we are born again, and they ask how a person can be unborn? What do you think? I have just always believed once we are saved we are always saved because that is what they preach, but now I am not so sure? It is not like I don't believe that anymore, but it looks like most of the arguments they are making are not so much based on scripture, but on things they reasoned out. I just don't know what to believe anymore. Let me know what you think about these arguments? Thanks.
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777
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Post by 777 on Jan 3, 2020 4:56:57 GMT -5
I was talking to someone at church, and something they mentioned to me was how Paul told the Corinthians to put someone out of the church because of their sin. It was in 1 Corinthians 5:5, where he says "To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." My friend told me that when a Christian sins, they may lose rewards in heaven or die prematurely, but their soul will be saved no matter what they do because they can't lose their salvation. What do you all think about this verse? I have been asking questions about verses of scripture that say we can't lose salvation, and have been surprised how weak most of the arguments are. I hear a lot of preaching about works based salvation and people who think they can lose salvation are trying to save themselves and prideful and things like that, but when it comes to scripture that plainly says we can't lose salvation, they don't have much. They did make one argument that seemed pretty strong, and that was about how when we get saved, we are born again, and they ask how a person can be unborn? What do you think? I have just always believed once we are saved we are always saved because that is what they preach, but now I am not so sure? It is not like I don't believe that anymore, but it looks like most of the arguments they are making are not so much based on scripture, but on things they reasoned out. I just don't know what to believe anymore. Let me know what you think about these arguments? Thanks. Hello Just Believe. As for the verse in 1 Corinthians 5:5, all he is saying is that the church needs to put that person out with the hope that this will lead to their repentance and their soul will be saved and they can be restored. It is not saying that a sinful Christian will die prematurely but still go to heaven. I have never seen how anyone can make such a leap, but I know that they do.
As far as the argument goes about being born again multiple times, why shouldn't you be able to be born again and lost and born again a second time? I am not saying that is what happens, but why would that be impossible? Remember that being born again is a spiritual thing, and in the natural, being born again once is not possible. That is why Nicodemus had questions about it, like can a man go back to his Mother's womb and be born again? This is just carnal human reasoning.
I am glad you are asking questions. What I have found is that those who push OSAS will sometimes use scriptures, but they just reference a verse here or there out of context and claim they prove you can't lose salvation, when they do no such thing. Then the rest is emotion based arguments and human logic, like saying a son can't be unborn or an adopted child can't be unadopted and stuff like that. Then they go around accusing people of pride and things like that. Very little of their arguments are really based on scripture. Keep seeking.
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Post by Saved Forever on Jan 3, 2020 6:38:20 GMT -5
I think I see how this works. Romans 5:15,16 says "But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift of grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
The Bible says salvation is a gift. and so is grace. God is not an indian giver.
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Post by John on Jan 3, 2020 7:41:51 GMT -5
I think I see how this works. Romans 5:15,16 says "But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift of grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. The Bible says salvation is a gift. and so is grace. God is not an indian giver. Hello and welcome. I appreciate you posting scripture to make your argument. The Indian giver comment is the kind of thing I am trying to avoid, but overall, this is the kind of civil discussion we need to have.
I see you chose to post as "Saved Forever." There is no reason that we can't all be saved and kept. As 777 stated in one of his posts, it is only willful sins that can cost you salvation. You literally have to make a choice to rebel against God. Even then, you can be restored by confessing your sins to God and turning from them
A gift can be lost. We lose possessions all the time. A gift can be conditional. People often leave things to others in a will, but based on conditions. Salvation is a free gift, but your keeping it is conditional. You must continue to believe in Jesus, and you must keep following him. We cannot be like Lot's wife, who by grace was delivered from Sodom, but looked back.
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