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Post by Saved Forever on Jan 23, 2020 13:16:31 GMT -5
I am not a teacher. I just always believed we can't be unborn again. I will just keep reading.
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Post by John on Jan 23, 2020 15:29:38 GMT -5
Hi good day my brother ,, i understand your point ,so let's not use human ideas. I will do a search of verses that point to salvation by faith in Jesus .I don't really understand the OSAS ideas as heresy ...I only understand false professors of the faith...as OSAS is also not scripture..its a non biblical idea..your problem to my understanding is with false converts,trees bringing forth bad fruit ,,or goats.people who say lord lord but don't do what Jesus says....I get the idea ..but never heard OSAS except on the internet.. I don't know if you have had much contact with Bloodbought at Worthy Forums, but he is teaching that a man who is saved by faith can commit 1000 acts of murder and rape each day without ever repenting and go to heaven. That is how far some people go when teaching the once saved, always saved doctrine. If there was ever an example of the OSAS heresy, that is it.
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Post by John on Jan 23, 2020 15:56:22 GMT -5
Thank you for that. This is exactly what John was looking for is someone to address this using scripture. Just so you know, we can give just as many verses that show you can lose salvation. Some are in the Statement of Faith. When I have a little more time, I will look up all of them in context and respond to them. I saw its in. The statement of faith if people are denying Christ s ability to save sinners the power of the holy spirit the new birth ,and trying to judge Jesus and him as a saviour and that nothing can separate us from his love I have no place here if this idea is in the statement of faith..its an issue of unblief both by people who despise the mercy of God abuse his grace and by people who don't believe Jesus is the Messiah basically..thank you my friend. I think I'm out of here to preach to the lost the good news ..this argument just shows that people who agree with it don't have faith in Jesus,, and or are confusing false converts bad behaviour with what Jesus has done ..I won't waste my time. π This thread was worth it all just to have this post in it from a true believer in OSAS. I couldn't have found a better example of the kind of thinking leads to belief in OSAS. Look at the non-stop accusations. What are we accused of?
1. Denying Christ's Ability To Save Sinners. If we didn't believe that Jesus could save sinners, we wouldn't be here. We believe that he can not only save them from hell, but he can save them from the bondages of sin.
2. Denying the power of the Holy Spirit. We believe in the Holy Spirit as our teacher and guide and that he gives us the power to live a life pleasing to Christ, not just the power to escape hell.
3. Denying the new birth. Every one of us believes in being born again. This is just false.
4. Trying to judge Jesus. How exactly?
5. Him as savior. We believe that Jesus saved us, meaning we believe he is our savior.
6. Nothing can separate us from his love. This is a vague reference to Romans 8:35, where a question is asked by Paul. "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?" Can any of these things separate us from the love of Christ? No. Nobody is disagreeing with Paul.
7. We are accused of despising the mercy of God. If not for God's mercy, nobody would be saved, no matter what they did. Our righteousness is as filthy rags compared to God's holiness, and we need God's mercy for anyone to be saved. The Bible says that the righteous are scarcely saved. The only reason any of us can stand before God is because he looks on the heart, and he knows when we are doing our best to follow the Lord. If we have put our trust in Jesus, and are following him the best we know how, God sees that, and shows us mercy. We don't despise that.
8. Abuse his grace. That one is really funny, because the people going around claiming that we can commit 1000 acts of rape and murder a day without repenting and remain saved are the ones abusing God's grace. The people pushing OSAS are the ones abusing God's grace by preaching what Paul was only accused of saying, that we should sin that grace would abound. When it was said about Paul, it was false, but in the case of the OSAS crowd today, it is largely true.
9. Don't believe Jesus is the Messiah. Another blatantly false accusation.
10. Don't have faith in Jesus. That is really strange, seeing that we are working for him without getting paid. We spend all this time working in a ministry as volunteers for someone we don't believe in?
11. Confusing false converts bad behavior with what Jesus has done. Not hardly. They are two different things.
You will notice that another person who believes in OSAS had an opportunity to discuss it using scriptures, but the moment she realized that she is among people that don't agree with her position, rather than attempting to win people to her side, she starts with the accusations. This should be instructive to everyone who is on the fence. We are perfectly happy to discuss scripture, but those on the other side turn to making accusations. This has been what I have encountered everywhere.
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Post by John on Jan 23, 2020 15:58:28 GMT -5
I think what I will do is address these one at a time.
John 10:27-29 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all: and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."
This is a good one to start with. What does Jesus say about his sheep? They hear him and they follow him. If you do those two things, you are eternally secure. If you don't, none of the rest of this applies to you. These conditions must be met to hear and follow or verses 28 and 29 don't matter. I like the way you have chosen to do this, one at a time. This would have been even better had the person who posted all of these verses stayed around to discuss them, but that is okay. We can take them on ourselves, now that someone has come forward to tell us what they are supposedly basing their beliefs on, even if they did have to seek them out on the internet.
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Post by John on Jan 23, 2020 15:59:31 GMT -5
I saw its in. The statement of faith if people are denying Christ s ability to save sinners the power of the holy spirit the new birth ,and trying to judge Jesus and him as a saviour and that nothing can separate us from his love I have no place here if this idea is in the statement of faith..its an issue of unblief both by people who despise the mercy of God abuse his grace and by people who don't believe Jesus is the Messiah basically..thank you my friend. I think I'm out of here to preach to the lost the good news ..this argument just shows that people who agree with it don't have faith in Jesus,, and or are confusing false converts bad behaviour with what Jesus has done ..I won't waste my time. π This is the kind of emotional, knee jerk comments we see from OSAS believers. There is no basis in fact. It is all emotion. Can you take the time to look at scripture objectively? I was looking forward to discussing this rationally with someone, and I thought that was you. Sadly it wasn't.
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Post by John on Jan 23, 2020 16:05:15 GMT -5
I saw its in. The statement of faith if people are denying Christ s ability to save sinners the power of the holy spirit the new birth ,and trying to judge Jesus and him as a saviour and that nothing can separate us from his love I have no place here if this idea is in the statement of faith..its an issue of unblief both by people who despise the mercy of God abuse his grace and by people who don't believe Jesus is the Messiah basically..thank you my friend. I think I'm out of here to preach to the lost the good news ..this argument just shows that people who agree with it don't have faith in Jesus,, and or are confusing false converts bad behaviour with what Jesus has done ..I won't waste my time. π Who is saying Jesus can't save sinners? Calm down. Take a deep breath. Unless you mean that Jesus saves from hell but leaves us as slaves to sin, I don't know what you are taking about? Their emotions get the better of them. They are so invested in their beliefs, that they can't have a rational conversation. When they are challenged, they almost go insane and blurt out the most ridiculous of accusations. I have no idea what she hoped to accomplish? Does anyone really think that saying things like that will win converts? The sad thing is, it started out looking promising, like there was someone willing to step up to the plate and try to defend OSAS using the Bible instead of emotions, but it wasn't to be. I do think she is a genuine Christian, but just brainwashed. Those accusations are likely things she has heard spewed in church.
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Post by John on Jan 23, 2020 16:07:35 GMT -5
This is the kind of emotional, knee jerk comments we see from OSAS believers. There is no basis in fact. It is all emotion. Can you take the time to look at scripture objectively? I was looking forward to discussing this rationally with someone, and I thought that was you. It reminds me of how people who are brainwashed into a cult act when their beliefs are changed. They won't even listen to what you have to say for fear it might force them to reconsider what they believe. All emotions. Even abandons what she posted before discussing it. This is really sad. She probably goes to a church that makes these convoluted arguments and she repeats them with no thought she was taught wrong. You hit the nail on the head. I often joke that these people tend to worship OSAS like a god. I would pronounce their god OH-SASS. That is who they serve. They live to make converts to OSAS. The only thing missing is the graven image to it.
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Post by John on Jan 23, 2020 16:09:48 GMT -5
Don't judge us all by that one outburst. I am looking at what everyone is saying. Hello Saved Forever. It is good to see you again. I am glad you are taking the time to examine everything.
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Post by John on Jan 23, 2020 16:17:42 GMT -5
I am not a teacher. I just always believed we can't be unborn again. I will just keep reading. I have heard that thrown around before. If you are looking at things in the natural, being born again once can't happen. That is why Nicodemus struggled with it. He asked if a person can go back into their Mother's womb and be born again? The answer is clearly no. With that in mind, you can't equate being born again with the natural process of being born the first time. As such, you could theoretically be born again, die and be born again a second time. I am not saying that is how it works, but it could happen. It makes as much logical sense as being born again. This is spiritual.
The same thing goes with other favorites like, can a son or daughter stop being a son or daughter, or can you be unadopted? The fact of the matter is, both of those things are possible, even in the natural, but not common. Still, we are talking about spiritual things, so you can't equate them to things in the natural. Most of the arguments I find for OSAS are based on human reasoning like this, not actual scripture. If you look at what the Bible says, you will find a handful of verses the OSAS crowd throws around to defend their position. They are all out of context, but even if they want to claim they are rightly dividing the Word, I can produce far more verses that show they are wrong. Then you have competing verses, so the argument is, the Bible can't contradict itself, so they must find a way to make everything agree with OSAS. I can just as easily turn this around and say the Bible must be made to disagree with OSAS because it can't contradict itself. See how this game works? That is why it would have been helpful to have a meaningful discussion, but so far, nobody is willing to do that
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Post by John on Jan 23, 2020 16:21:41 GMT -5
Folks, we need a re-set. I have allowed some posts to remain because they show the kind of problems believers in OSAS are having in making their arguments. What they teach is in error, so they always revert to attacks. We do however have some actual scriptures one of their supporters posted to supposedly show OSAS is real. 777 has addressed a few of them, and I suggest we continue to go through them, as he started doing, one at a time. If someone who disagrees with OSAS wants to add scriptures defending that side, they can do so. The main thing is, lets go back to the Bible and away from the attacks. Lets go back to following the ground rules I put in place at the start.
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Post by John on Jan 23, 2020 17:24:16 GMT -5
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16
First of all, it says that "whosoever believeth in him should not perish, not shall not perish. That in itself shows it is not a guarantee that everyone that believes will have everlasting life, but there is more wrong than that. It does not mean that everyone that simply believes Jesus is the Son of God will not perish. James says the devils believe and tremble. It is speaking of those who believe to the point of actually following him. Those who turn to Christ SHOULD not perish but have everlasting life.
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Post by John on Jan 23, 2020 17:30:42 GMT -5
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Romans 11:29
This isn't speaking at all about security of the believer. It is speaking about how God's calling on the nation of Israel continues, in spite of the fact many reject Christ. This doesn't mean Jews will be saved without faith in Jesus, but that the promises that God made to the nation of Israel remain in tact and will be fulfilled.
Gifts and callings has also been applied to your calling in the ministry. Even if you backslide, if you are called as a teacher or preacher, the calling remains, but that doesn't mean you will remain saved. It just means that your purpose in life is what it is. It won't be revoked. Many that were called into the ministry when they were living for God backslid and went to hell. There are also others that backslid and returned to the Lord, and picked up where they left off doing the same ministry.
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Post by John on Jan 23, 2020 17:35:08 GMT -5
Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now an ever. A-men. Jude 1:24-25
All Jude is saying is that God has the power to keep everyone. It is not saying that God is guaranteeing that everyone will be kept, even if they walk away. The Bible says that with every temptation, God gives us a way of escape, but it doesn't guarantee all will take it. Many don't. God is able to do a lot of things. He is able to save every person on the face of the earth, even those who serve idols, if that was his will, but he doesn't do that.
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Post by John on Jan 23, 2020 17:44:04 GMT -5
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. 1 John 5:13
All John is doing here is telling those who are following Jesus that they have eternal life, and encouraging those who do not believe to put their faith in Christ. There is nothing here that indicates anyone is guaranteed unconditional salvation. This is the same book that says the following in 1 John 3:9-10...
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
In this same book, John says that those who don't live a righteous life are not of God. Look at 1 John 3:6-8
Whoseover abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
There is nothing in this epistle that even remotely promotes unconditional security of the believer.
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Post by John on Jan 23, 2020 17:47:23 GMT -5
Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
God indeed does place a seal on us, but nowhere does it say there is a guarantee that seal cannot be removed. Our name is also in God's book, but in Exodus, when the children of Israel sinned, God told Moses he was going to blot out the names of those that committed the transgression, and in Revelation, it also makes mention that God has the ability to blot names out of his book. Having a seal doesn't guarantee that you keep it if you turn away from God.
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