|
|
Post by John on Dec 30, 2019 6:27:47 GMT -5
The issue that we are dealing with is that of God's chain of authority. I want to address that at this time.
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.1 Corinthians 11:3
This is pretty plain. To the men, your spiritual head is Jesus Christ. You obey Him by following what is written in the Bible, as well as obeying him when He speaks to you to perform specific tasks. The most important thing to remember is that He will never tell you to do things that violate His written Word. As such, it is critical for men to understand that they need to know their Bible in order to follow the Lord. It is also important to realize that the men are accountable for obeying Jesus Christ. It is not enough to go around claiming they feel led to do this or led to do that. Following our head means obedience to scripture.
The head of Christ is God, simply means that God the Father is the one whose will is being carried out. Jesus Christ is God, but He obeys His head. In the human body, the head controls what the body does. So is the case within the Holy Trinity. The Son always obeys the will of the Father.
Where we are having issues in this discussion is over the husband's authority in the home over the wife. The Bible says that the head of the woman is the man, clearly meaning the husband is the head of his wife, and it is his will that is to be done in the home, as it is God the Father's will that is being carried out by Jesus Christ and hopefully Jesus Christ's will that is being carried out by the man of the house. That is the way God designed things to be.
We have not had any controversy thus far with regard to Jesus Christ doing the will of God the Father. I haven't seen any controversy thus far concerning the fact that the husband is to be obedient to Jesus Christ. I think that most would understand that. The controversy seems to be about the husband's authority in the home, and that is what I want to address.
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. Genesis 3:16
We have had a bit of a controversy over this command of the Lord. There is no question what God has said. The woman is told that her husband shall rule over her. The controversy that was created is if we are still effected by this as Christians? Are we still under the effects of the fall that took place in the garden? I do not see how anyone can look around and not recognize that we are still under the effects of the curse. We have not been given back access to the tree of life that was in the garden or we would never age, get sick and die. We have not gone back to a time where the earth was no longer under a curse, and crops were never infested with bugs or by bad weather, and to this day, men have to work by the sweat of their brow to earn a living.
We are clearly still under the curse, so it makes no logical sense to claim that the husband no longer is to rule over his wife. Before the fall, it was not necessary that the husband rule over his wife, because there was no strife. That came as a result of the fall. Now, sin and rebellion has entered the world, and with that, we have women who are not wanting to follow the leading of their husbands, so God had to state that the husband was to rule over his wife so there would be no question over who was in charge. It was always God's will that the husband be the head of the wife. The woman was created in the first place to be a help meet to a husband. The only thing that changed as a result of the fall, is that strife has entered, and at times, a power struggle for control has ensued.
I spent a lot of time going through all the scriptures dealing with God's order for the home, and when I was doing that, the Lord impressed a connection I had not seen between what he said in Genesis 3:16 and a New Testament verse found in Hebrews 13:17. As such, I want to place them back to back.
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. Genesis 3:16
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you. Hebrews 13:17
The scripture I gave from Hebrews has broader implications than just the husband and wife relationship. It also means leadership in the church, but the reason why this stood out to me was because God told the woman that her husband was to rule over her, and the other scripture tells everyone to obey those who have the rule over them. It also matters because it shows that those in authority "must give account." They are looking after those who they rule over, and watch for their souls. If the man is doing as he is supposed to, he is following Jesus Christ. If not, and he leads his wife and children astray, he will have to give account to God for doing that. This does not mean that the wife is not to obey her husband if he fails to follow Jesus as he should. I have another scripture that proves that is not the case. She is to obey him even if he is unsaved, but he will give account to God. Each person will give account to God for their obedience to following his order or refusing to do so. I am going to follow this up in another post so this one will not be too long.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2019 7:06:41 GMT -5
You are wrongly lumping me in with feminism and some other teaching and person you know....so no wonder people are getting confused, when I have already said that I fully accept what the scriptures say about wives being in submission. What I'm trying to address is your apparent thinking that husbands might have to force their wives to be in submission....and also where you said in a previous discussion that it's okay for husbands to hit (spank) their wives.
As far as use of force goes, you compared the husband and wife relationship to Christ and the church. How does Jesus force us to obey him? By way of chastisement. That means that we are punished when we disobey. If I am using your logic, and we are to use the comparison of Christ and the church to husbands and wives, then husbands should chastise their wives if they do not obey them. Again, I am saying that is true if I am going by your comparison. I have not taken a position on how husbands should react to a wife who is in rebellion against their authority thus far. In reality, there is not a lot they can do, except leave it to the Lord to handle.
That is wonderful if you fully accept what the scriptures say about wives being in submission, but the way you worded things, it did not come across that way. I could go back through all of your posts and show you why it doesn't come across that way, but I do not see the value in doing that.
Oy vey, is about all I will say at this point, brother. You can just keep on thinking that Christ's relationship to the church is a curse if you want to. Massive error. |
|
|
|
Post by John on Dec 30, 2019 7:12:36 GMT -5
Nothing has changed with the order of authority in the home since the very beginning. The only thing that has changed is strife, and sometimes a power struggle for control. There are numerous New Testament passages that show that nothing has changed regarding the husband's authority from when God pronounced that the husband would rule over his wife in Genesis 3:16.
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the savior of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. Ephesians 5:22-24
This compares the authority Christ has over the church with the authority the husband has over his wife. Wives are to submit themselves unto their own husbands in the same way that the church is to submit to Christ, in everything.
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord. Colossians 3:18
Again, Paul reaffirms that wives are to submit to (obey) their husbands. This is fit in the Lord. It is God's will.
Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives; while they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear. 1 Peter 3:1,2
This passage makes it clear that wives are to obey unbelieving husbands as well. The hope is that when the husbands observe the actions of their Christian wives, they will be won over to the Lord. One thing that some have done is to try to claim that wives do not have to obey husbands that are not living right, and of course, the wives make those judgements. According to scripture, the husband is still in charge, even in cases where he is not living right and in cases where he is not saved.
For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection to their own husbands: Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.
The Bible lifts up Sara as an example to all women. She was in subjection to her husband. She obeyed him, calling him lord, in recognition of the fact he was her head. In this instance, "lord" is used to show more than just respect, but it is speaking of headship. It is mentioned right after it states that she obeyed him and was in subjection to him.
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 1 Timothy 2:12-14
This is stating that the woman is not to usurp her husband's authority. She is not to try to take his position as head of the home. He is her spiritual head, not the other way around, so when they are at odds over spiritual matters, he has the final say in things. It mentions Adam and Eve. Adam was to follow God, and he knew he was not to eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Eve was deceived by the serpent, ate, and then gave to her husband, and rather than following God, he obeyed the voice of his wife. As such, the woman is not to usurp the authority of her husband. She is not to be his teacher, but to be in silence.
Having difficulties with the crops, and working by the sweat of his brow was a curse on the man, but work itself was not a curse. God gave man a job to do in the garden. That was God's purpose for man, to look after and take care of the garden. Just as God had a purpose for man, he also had a purpose for the woman. The man being head of the woman was not part of the curse. The curse was the strife that would lead to God having to make it clear that the husband was to rule over his wife. Without the strife, the man and woman didn't have a power struggle between each other, and the wife was not trying to usurp his position.
Now, the woman did bring her husband the forbidden fruit, and he did eat, but there was no indication of any strife or power struggle. She was deceived by the serpent, and the man just chose to obey her voice rather than the voice of God. After the fall of man, a real power struggle began. You have battles all the time over who is in charge in the home. That is where the old saying, "Who wears the pants in the family," came from, because traditionally, the man wore pants and the woman a dress. That is another issue. Today, women are wearing clothes that pertain to the man, which is also in opposition to scripture, and also a result of feminism, but I won't deal with that here because it will derail the thread. The main point I am making is that the order has been the same from the beginning, that the man is the head of his wife.
And the LORD said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a help meet for him. Genesis 2:18
God created woman to be a helper for a husband, not a competitor. God would lead the man, give him a job to do, and the woman was to be his helper. This is plain to see, but mostly overlooked. Instead, feminism teaches rebellion against this. They attack God's order as relegating women to being as chattel or property. The fact of the matter is, the woman was created "for" the man. God created woman from Adam's rib and brought her to him. Genesis 2:21,22 says the following...
And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
Now, lets look at what it says in 1 Corinthians 11:8,9...
For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
Has anyone ever taken a close look at that? The woman was created "for the man." That is her God designed purpose in life.
I am going to give you one more scripture to consider, regarding gender roles, since this has also been a controversy today. We have an idea of what God considered to be the proper role for women based on this scripture in 1 Timothy 5:14...
I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.
The modern culture is completely at odds with what the Bible teaches regarding the Christian home. Some may claim that in those days, women did not have the opportunities they have today. That may be true, but the fact of the matter is, this is God's design. God created woman "for the man" to be his help meet. He is the head of his wife. It is my position that the reason this world is in such a mess is because we have gone away from God's order, not only in the home, but in the church. If the Christian church wants to be blessed by God, we have to stop looking at what those around us are doing, and return to the Biblical pattern.
|
|
|
|
Post by John on Dec 30, 2019 7:15:09 GMT -5
For the second time, I never said it was "okay for husbands to hit (spank) their wives." I said it does not rise to the level of spousal abuse. That is common sense, given that if spanking of any kind were abuse, it would be abuse to spank children, and the Bible tells us to do that.
As far as use of force goes, you compared the husband and wife relationship to Christ and the church. How does Jesus force us to obey him? By way of chastisement. That means that we are punished when we disobey. If I am using your logic, and we are to use the comparison of Christ and the church to husbands and wives, then husbands should chastise their wives if they do not obey them. Again, I am saying that is true if I am going by your comparison. I have not taken a position on how husbands should react to a wife who is in rebellion against their authority thus far. In reality, there is not a lot they can do, except leave it to the Lord to handle.
That is wonderful if you fully accept what the scriptures say about wives being in submission, but the way you worded things, it did not come across that way. I could go back through all of your posts and show you why it doesn't come across that way, but I do not see the value in doing that.
Oy vey, is about all I will say at this point, brother. You can just keep on thinking that Christ's relationship to the church is a curse if you want to. Massive error.
|
|
|
|
Post by John on Dec 30, 2019 7:22:23 GMT -5
It has been said in this thread that Jesus doesn't force us to do anything. That depends on what one means by "force." When we disobey him, he chastises us. Notice what it says in Hebrews 12:6.
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
To me, that kind of sounds like I am being forced to obey by a threat of being chastised if I don't.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2019 8:11:19 GMT -5
Oy vey, is about all I will say at this point, brother. You can just keep on thinking that Christ's relationship to the church is a curse if you want to. Massive error.
You just don't realize that is the conclusion of what folks are believing about marriage and the curse. There is a place for correction, of course, and wives can correct their husbands as well. But it matters a lot how it's done, and it's just plain error to think in terms of forcing. And there's a big difference between the new way of the spirit as opposed to the old way of the letter which KILLS. That is talking about spiritual death, so it's a serious matter and all will be held accountable for how they handle the word of God and Christ. |
|
|
|
Post by frienduff on Dec 30, 2019 8:36:09 GMT -5
In essence we sure are eating and drinking of the tree of life . FOR who soever eats of my flesh and drinks of my blood , shall never die . JESUS is the tree of life . HE IS . Now our physical bodies will die or be changed , that part is very true . But whosoever drinks of HIM shall never thirst and never die . Just be encouraged butero . I think this is what watchful means .
The last part is true . There is still the curse due to sin upon the world . When it says we are no longer under the curse , it means the death sentence in the law . Not the effects of sin . But the end of sin which is death . SO long as we are IN JESUS and REMAIN IN HIM , we are not under that curse , the curse of the law which says CURSED are those which have not done all things written . JESUS became a curse for us when he was hanged on the cross . That is the curse we are no longer under , As for the effects of sin , It remains . This world is still under the curse , our bodies will still age, and folks still will get sick .
Even as the one who got so sick he nearly died . And he got sick why , for the work of the LORD , he was sick nigh unto death . Sounds like he hazardoued his own body in the cold and perhaps rains , because he was doing all to get something to pual or another one .
|
|
|
|
Post by frienduff on Dec 30, 2019 8:43:15 GMT -5
That is a perversion of what I said. I never once said Christ's relationship to the church is a curse. I said that Christ tells us what we are to do, and when we fail to do it, he chastises us. That is a Biblical fact, that I can easily prove. If you are going to compare the relationship of the husband and wife to Christ and the church, that would mean that if the wife doesn't obey her husband, he should chastise her in one way or another. I have never suggested that. We are supposed to obey our head because the Bible says we are to do that.
You just don't realize that is the conclusion of what folks are believing about marriage and the curse. There is a place for correction, of course, and wives can correct their husbands as well. But it matters a lot how it's done, and it's just plain error to think in terms of forcing. And there's a big difference between the new way of the spirit as opposed to the old way of the letter which KILLS. That is talking about spiritual death, so it's a serious matter and all will be held accountable for how they handle the word of God and Christ. What I am about to say , I KNOW you already know . But two things to just remind us . Number one , the husband is the head of the wife . Number two can the woman really correct the husband . The answer might surprise some . HEARKEN UNTO SARAH THY WIFE . WHO SAID THAT . GOD DID . Abraham DID NOT want to cast out HIS SON Ishmael . Sarah had politely and respectfully told him to do so . And GOD told Abraham , HEARKEN UNTO SARAH THY WIFE . NOW , do notice HOW she did it , IT was not in a hear , hear ME AND OBEY ME MANNER , it was done simply as good counsel . But wives can give advice unto husbands . THEY sure can . They cant demand it , they cant do that , but they can give good counsel to their husbands .
|
|
|
|
Post by John on Dec 30, 2019 8:58:14 GMT -5
That is a perversion of what I said. I never once said Christ's relationship to the church is a curse. I said that Christ tells us what we are to do, and when we fail to do it, he chastises us. That is a Biblical fact, that I can easily prove. If you are going to compare the relationship of the husband and wife to Christ and the church, that would mean that if the wife doesn't obey her husband, he should chastise her in one way or another. I have never suggested that. We are supposed to obey our head because the Bible says we are to do that.
You just don't realize that is the conclusion of what folks are believing about marriage and the curse. There is a place for correction, of course, and wives can correct their husbands as well. But it matters a lot how it's done, and it's just plain error to think in terms of forcing. And there's a big difference between the new way of the spirit as opposed to the old way of the letter which KILLS. That is talking about spiritual death, so it's a serious matter and all will be held accountable for how they handle the word of God and Christ.
When it comes to use of force, that all depends on how you mean it. Jesus does not force us to do things by placing handcuffs on us and pointing a gun to our head, but he chastises us when we do not obey. In that way, he is using force, and that is in the New Testament, so it is the way of the Spirit. When I speak of the husband forcing his wife to obey, I mean insisting she obey, not beating her up if she refuses. God will deal with those who rebel against authority. The husband doesn't need to take matters into his own hands. He can just turn it over to God.
The wife can certainly point out if the husband is going against scripture, and correct in that manner, but she cannot usurp his authority. If he decides she is wrong, he is the spiritual head of the home, and his word is what goes. Then the issue is between the man and his head, Jesus Christ.
|
|
|
|
Post by John on Dec 30, 2019 9:02:52 GMT -5
You just don't realize that is the conclusion of what folks are believing about marriage and the curse. There is a place for correction, of course, and wives can correct their husbands as well. But it matters a lot how it's done, and it's just plain error to think in terms of forcing. And there's a big difference between the new way of the spirit as opposed to the old way of the letter which KILLS. That is talking about spiritual death, so it's a serious matter and all will be held accountable for how they handle the word of God and Christ. What I am about to say , I KNOW you already know . But two things to just remind us . Number one , the husband is the head of the wife . Number two can the woman really correct the husband . The answer might surprise some . HEARKEN UNTO SARAH THY WIFE . WHO SAID THAT . GOD DID . Abraham DID NOT want to cast out HIS SON Ishmael . Sarah had politely and respectfully told him to do so . And GOD told Abraham , HEARKEN UNTO SARAH THY WIFE . NOW , do notice HOW she did it , IT was not in a hear , hear ME AND OBEY ME MANNER , it was done simply as good counsel . But wives can give advice unto husbands . THEY sure can . They cant demand it , they cant do that , but they can give good counsel to their husbands .
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2019 9:12:56 GMT -5
Reply to John:
I'm only talking about your doctrine......where you say that women are to obey the curse of being ruled over by their husbands. I'll try it this way.......if we can understand that the curses that God pronounced on Adam and Eve are the result of the fall....those curses ARE the fall. To teach husbands and wives, men and women, to obey the curse of the fall is completely anathema to what Christ came to do. If we are supposed to obey the curse of the fall, then we better rebuke those who pray for healing, or who raise the dead, or those who are trusting the Lord for their provision, and congratulate all who obey their fallen nature. I hope that helps....think that's about the best way I can express this. The curse of the fall is not what Paul was teaching concerning marriage. It just was not.
|
|
|
|
Post by John on Dec 30, 2019 9:28:43 GMT -5
Reply to John: I'm only talking about your doctrine......where you say that women are to obey the curse of being ruled over by their husbands. I'll try it this way.......if we can understand that the curses that God pronounced on Adam and Eve are the result of the fall....those curses ARE the fall. To teach husbands and wives, men and women, to obey the curse of the fall is completely anathema to what Christ came to do. If we are supposed to obey the curse of the fall, then we better rebuke those who pray for healing, or who raise the dead, or those who are trusting the Lord for their provision, and congratulate all who obey their fallen nature. I hope that helps....think that's about the best way I can express this. The curse of the fall is not what Paul was teaching concerning marriage. It just was not.
|
|
777
Senior Member
Teacher
Posts: 1,189
|
Post by 777 on Dec 30, 2019 10:03:39 GMT -5
I like the way you (John) laid all those scriptures out like you did. I have never seen anyone make the case like that about authority in the home, not that neat anyway.
|
|
|
|
Post by solid on Dec 30, 2019 10:43:35 GMT -5
Why does this seem very confusing to me?
I don't know if anyone is intentionally trying to cause confusion, but we have so many voices saying different things! |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2019 12:03:48 GMT -5
You just don't realize that is the conclusion of what folks are believing about marriage and the curse. There is a place for correction, of course, and wives can correct their husbands as well. But it matters a lot how it's done, and it's just plain error to think in terms of forcing. And there's a big difference between the new way of the spirit as opposed to the old way of the letter which KILLS. That is talking about spiritual death, so it's a serious matter and all will be held accountable for how they handle the word of God and Christ. What I am about to say , I KNOW you already know . But two things to just remind us . Number one , the husband is the head of the wife . Number two can the woman really correct the husband . The answer might surprise some . HEARKEN UNTO SARAH THY WIFE . WHO SAID THAT . GOD DID . Abraham DID NOT want to cast out HIS SON Ishmael . Sarah had politely and respectfully told him to do so . And GOD told Abraham , HEARKEN UNTO SARAH THY WIFE . NOW , do notice HOW she did it , IT was not in a hear , hear ME AND OBEY ME MANNER , it was done simply as good counsel . But wives can give advice unto husbands . THEY sure can . They cant demand it , they cant do that , but they can give good counsel to their husbands .
Amen brother.....I did say that it matters how it is done. And rudeness, disrespect and demanding attitudes are surely not a recipe for a Godly marriage on either side, since husbands are to also honour their wives as the weaker partner, and dwell with them according to knowledge (understanding and consideration). |
|
