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Post by Just Believe on Jan 2, 2020 23:02:30 GMT -5
I have been going to a church all of my life that teaches once we are saved, we are always saved, and I have always believed that is right because I never questioned it. I have been reading through your posts and seeing a lot of scriptures that have made me think that may be wrong. I like the people at my church and I like the preacher, but if they are teaching things that are wrong, I don't know if I can keep going there. I don't want to leave, but if OSAS is really a lie, how can I go to a church that preaches it when it is such a major part of what they teach? I am not sure it is wrong, but I am beginning to doubt it, because they can't give me a lot of scriptures to support it, and you all have posted a lot of verses that go against it. I noticed that you all are going through the Bible together. I have never read the Bible through. Would you advise me to start in Genesis or in the New Testament?
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777
Senior Member
Teacher
Posts: 1,189
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Post by 777 on Jan 3, 2020 5:06:34 GMT -5
If you do come to the conclusion that your church is teaching things that are false, it would be hard to remain there. I couldn't do it. I would look for a new church. If you have a lot of friends there, it may be hard to part company with them, but from my experience, if you decide you don't believe in OSAS, they will turn on you. That is the one thing most religious people are intolerant about.
You might want to start in Matthew and read through the New Testament first. Then go back and start in Genesis and read straight through. The Bible is not like other books where you read it once and that is it. You would do good to make Bible reading a regular daily practice.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Jan 3, 2020 9:33:50 GMT -5
...Would you advise me to start in Genesis or in the New Testament? Start from the New Testament (book of Matthew).
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Dezi
Junior Member
Posts: 431
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Post by Dezi on Jan 3, 2020 12:25:54 GMT -5
I am personally reading for my second time through the Old Testament and some from the New Testament each day. I didn't fully understand the Word of God until I read all the way through. Just my experience with it. I hope you will stick around and read through it with us!
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Cletus
Senior Member
Posts: 2,517
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Post by Cletus on Jan 4, 2020 10:49:30 GMT -5
I have been going to a church all of my life that teaches once we are saved, we are always saved, and I have always believed that is right because I never questioned it. I have been reading through your posts and seeing a lot of scriptures that have made me think that may be wrong. I like the people at my church and I like the preacher, but if they are teaching things that are wrong, I don't know if I can keep going there. I don't want to leave, but if OSAS is really a lie, how can I go to a church that preaches it when it is such a major part of what they teach? I am not sure it is wrong, but I am beginning to doubt it, because they can't give me a lot of scriptures to support it, and you all have posted a lot of verses that go against it. I noticed that you all are going through the Bible together. I have never read the Bible through. Would you advise me to start in Genesis or in the New Testament? I would encourage you to dig down deep in your own heart and determine how badly you want the truth... and if you found out the truth was a hard thing would you be willing to stick with it or compromise?
if you realize that you desire the truth no matter what it may be then ask God for the truth. acknowledge in prayer that man may lie to you even if he thinks he is telling you right and that because God never lies its only Him who can tell you for certain whats truth.
Seek God for answers, not man. Once God tells you something you know its true no matter what any man tells you. God will not withhold from you knowledge and wisdom if your heart is right and you ask. in fact scripture tells us this is the one area God is liberal in. Solomon asked God for wisdom to be able to rule as a king and God did not hold back. Seek God for truth is my advice to you.
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Post by John on Jan 4, 2020 19:42:33 GMT -5
I have been going to a church all of my life that teaches once we are saved, we are always saved, and I have always believed that is right because I never questioned it. I have been reading through your posts and seeing a lot of scriptures that have made me think that may be wrong. I like the people at my church and I like the preacher, but if they are teaching things that are wrong, I don't know if I can keep going there. I don't want to leave, but if OSAS is really a lie, how can I go to a church that preaches it when it is such a major part of what they teach? I am not sure it is wrong, but I am beginning to doubt it, because they can't give me a lot of scriptures to support it, and you all have posted a lot of verses that go against it. I noticed that you all are going through the Bible together. I have never read the Bible through. Would you advise me to start in Genesis or in the New Testament? I was thinking about what you said, and it caused me to go to a place where they have a multitude of people pushing OSAS to see what they are saying. I know they use a lot of repetition, catch phrases and accusations. That has always been their primary method of doing things, but I never realized how little scripture they actually use! They have one false teacher who likes to claim there are 400 scriptures promoting OSAS and 200 that are seemingly against it that are used out of context, but when I started reading their arguments, that wasn't close to accurate. I don't know that I saw a single scripture that came close to saying salvation is unconditional. What they do is use scriptures about not being saved by the works of the law and a few verses that are out of context to say that we are saved because we believe. The fact of the matter is, we all agree we are saved because we believe, so that really doesn't mean anything. They accuse us of things like being a legalist to demonize us, but there is no scripture that mentions legalism. If you point that out, they call it being a Judaizer, but that word isn't found in the Bible either. They accuse people of being in a works based salvation, but can't show that, since we all believe we are saved by faith in Christ, and James states that faith without works is dead.
They also use concepts. The leader at that particular site created or repeated some crazy idea he came up with that entering into the Lord's rest in Hebrews means fully accepting unconditional eternal security. There is not one shred of evidence to support that. In addition, they make accusations, like saying that those who reject OSAS are prideful and don't believe that the blood Jesus shed is sufficient to save forever or cover all sins. They make comparisons to carnal things, like saying that if you have parents, you will always be their child no matter what. They claim that you can't be born again more than once. They create catch phrases like "faith plus nothing," that is not found in the Bible, and contradicts actual scripture like "faith without works is dead." They find creative ways to show how some portions of New Testament scripture doesn't apply today, and they can get very creative in doing that. They push the idea that all sins are equal, even though the Bible says different. Jesus said that their are some sins that are weightier than others, and Hebrews speaks of willful sins. They will claim that the teachings of Jesus don't matter today. They will claim that Paul is the Apostle to the Gentiles, so we don't need to concern ourselves with James, John, Peter, or Jude in their epistles, but strangely enough, they want us to focus on John's gospel over the rest. You see, we are supposed to focus only on it because it is the one gospel that doesn't mention the word repent, and they don't like that word. As such, we shouldn't pay attention to the gospels where that word is used. It might confuse newbies. They tell us that we all sin all the time and can't stop, even though John says that those who live in sin are of the devil. They say that all sins, including a single bad thought is as bad as murder, which is not true.
Anyway, they use very little scripture, and having seen that, now I think I understand why they are so reluctant to take me up on my challenge to discuss OSAS using only scriptural arguments. They really don't have much they can use to attempt to support their doctrine. I have been debating people on this topic for decades, and because of the way they do things to confuse, I never realized how devoid of Bible they really were. I would have handled things different had I known, but I am not sure it would have made much difference when the people in charge were helping spread the lies. They tend to congregate in places where the leadership pushes OSAS so there are no objective moderators. I don't claim to be neutral or objective, but I did make a legitimate offer in this one thread, and would discuss this in a fair and honest manner. I would do my best to hold myself to the same standard of debate requirements I am imposing on them, but I know the truth is on my side, and if it wasn't, I would want to know I was in the wrong. The truth is the most important thing to me.
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777
Senior Member
Teacher
Posts: 1,189
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Post by 777 on Jan 13, 2020 8:04:49 GMT -5
After reading this, I went back and read through several of the threads about osas at Worthy Forums, and was amazed at how right you are. They repeat a handful of verses out of context repeatedly and make arguments based on their carnal reasoning. I never realized how few scriptures they had, and there is not one that says salvation is without conditions or that you can never lose it.
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