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Post by Apostle's Instructions on Jan 23, 2020 4:16:45 GMT -5
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonor. If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. 2 Timothy 2:19-21
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777
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Post by 777 on Feb 3, 2020 10:57:15 GMT -5
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonor. If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. 2 Timothy 2:19-21 I just had a thought. What if we have been taking this wrong, and the great house is our temple instead of the church as a whole? First, we are told that those who are followers of Jesus should depart from iniquity. Then he says that in this great house are things good and bad. Then he says a man should purge himself to be a vessel of honor. That has nothing to do with others in the church. That is about us! What do you think?
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Post by solid on Feb 3, 2020 11:33:46 GMT -5
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonor. If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. 2 Timothy 2:19-21 I just had a thought. What if we have been taking this wrong, and the great house is our temple instead of the church as a whole? First, we are told that those who are followers of Jesus should depart from iniquity. Then he says that in this great house are things good and bad. Then he says a man should purge himself to be a vessel of honor. That has nothing to do with others in the church. That is about us! What do you think? I think it is talking about there being good and bad people in the church, like there are wheat and tares.
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Post by frienduff on Feb 3, 2020 13:42:26 GMT -5
I just had a thought. What if we have been taking this wrong, and the great house is our temple instead of the church as a whole? First, we are told that those who are followers of Jesus should depart from iniquity. Then he says that in this great house are things good and bad. Then he says a man should purge himself to be a vessel of honor. That has nothing to do with others in the church. That is about us! What do you think? I think it is talking about there being good and bad people in the church, like there are wheat and tares. Solid is correct . And this is why the pattern is , if one is in error , you rebuke them , if they heed amen , all is well , if not take it before more witnesses , If one does not repent , SEPERATE from their company , TILL repentance be made . We don't just continue with unrepentant folks .
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777
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Post by 777 on Feb 3, 2020 14:38:32 GMT -5
I was just reading it, and that is what it seemed to be saying to me, but I haven't had a chance to examine it that close yet, so it is not something I am confident about.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2020 21:09:36 GMT -5
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonor. If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. 2 Timothy 2:19-21 I just had a thought. What if we have been taking this wrong, and the great house is our temple instead of the church as a whole? First, we are told that those who are followers of Jesus should depart from iniquity. Then he says that in this great house are things good and bad. Then he says a man should purge himself to be a vessel of honor. That has nothing to do with others in the church. That is about us! What do you think? Amen! I would say that's a bulls-eye brother. Perishable and imperishable.....flesh and spirit. Exactly what I have been yammering about. Wood and clay are perishable, speaking to what is carnal, fleshly.........while silver and gold are imperishable alluding to the spiritual. If we purge ourselves of the former we can become vessels of honour.
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Post by John on Feb 3, 2020 23:42:17 GMT -5
This is interesting. I have heard this interpreted one of two ways in the past. Either it is said to mean that the great house is the world, and in the world, there are vessels good and bad, vessels unto honor and vessels unto dishonor. It is said to be the church, (which is how I have taken it), and there are vessels good and bad, some to honor and some to dishonor. In both of those interpretations, it is speaking of different people. So you 777 , are suggesting that it may be the individual that has good and bad on the inside, some to honor and some to dishonor.
This all came from 2 Timothy 2:19-21. Maybe we should take a look at a larger portion of the text besides these 3 verses? Lets look at 2 Timothy 2:15-22
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrown the faith of some. Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal. The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonor. If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
Before we get to the passage in the OP, we find a reference to 2 false teachers named Hymenaeus and Philetus, that were preaching that the resurrection already took place. This indicates 2 individuals among the believers, so if we are looking at this as saying that in a great house, there are people good and bad, this fits. The question is, when we are talking about purging ourselves, is it speaking of as an individual temple of the Lord, or is it speaking of the body of Christ? Are we speaking of ridding our body of wood and earth and things that bring dishonor, or are we speaking of ridding the body of wood and earth and things that bring dishonor? I can see truth in both interpretations. We do not want to have false teachers like Hymenaeus and Philetus in our church, but we also don't want iniquity and youthful lusts in our personal temple. So I can see the need to put out blatantly false teachers from the local church, and the need to examine our body, the temple of the Holy Spirit, and rid it of iniquity. I think 777 makes a good point, but I also believe that Frienduff and Solid are correct as well.
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Post by John on Feb 4, 2020 0:03:04 GMT -5
I just had a thought. What if we have been taking this wrong, and the great house is our temple instead of the church as a whole? First, we are told that those who are followers of Jesus should depart from iniquity. Then he says that in this great house are things good and bad. Then he says a man should purge himself to be a vessel of honor. That has nothing to do with others in the church. That is about us! What do you think? Amen! I would say that's a bulls-eye brother. Perishable and imperishable.....flesh and spirit. Exactly what I have been yammering about. Wood and clay are perishable, speaking to what is carnal, fleshly.........while silver and gold are imperishable alluding to the spiritual. If we purge ourselves of the former we can become vessels of honour. Lets take a look at what you are saying. If I am taking you right, you are saying that in our temple, there are thoughts that are carnal and thoughts that are spiritual, and we should seek to get rid of the carnal thoughts and retain the spiritual thoughts to be a vessel of honor. I understand what you are saying, but you also said, this is what you have been "yammering about." The problem is, when you have been "yammering about" being spiritual in your thinking, you have been claiming that you personally are thinking spiritually and others are thinking carnally, and therefore, if they would only be spiritual like you, they would agree with you. This is making the assumption that you don't have a mind full of wood and earth.
How do we determine who is spiritual and who is carnal? I use the Bible as the way to tell. Does what the person is saying match up with scripture? If it does, they are spiritual. If not, they are carnal. If I am understanding you correctly, you don't want to be judged that way. You would come back and say that "the letter killeth," and the way you mean that is to say that we can't go by the precise words of the Biblical text, but we have to go by what the Spirit is speaking to us as individuals. What the Spirit is speaking to us as individuals can be contrary to what the precise words in the Biblical text say.
I take the approach that we must go by the precise words in the Biblical text. You say that we can't always do that. As a result, we butt heads. Am I wrong in how I am taking you? I am trying to figure out how you arrive at the conclusions you do? If I had just read your comments to 777, without considering what you said about this being what you have been "yammering about," I wouldn't have thought anything about what you said, except it was just agreeing with 777, but when I take it in light of what you have been "yammering about" in other posts, I feel like I need to get to the bottom of this to perhaps figure out once and for all your approach to scripture.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2020 7:15:48 GMT -5
What I understand from scripture is that we need to be relying on the Holy Spirit, not on ourselves and our own minds. We are the vessels in the Father's house and can purge ourselves of what is perishable (flesh,carnal) in order to rely on, walk in, obey, the Holy Spirit (imperishable like gold and silver)...be vessels of the Holy Spirit rather than self. And that includes our carnal minds (flesh), in order to have the mind of Christ (spiritual). Die to self and grow in the Spirit and in understanding in other words as we purge (clean) our vessels of things that are perishable. Just think what wooden and clay vessels are used for in a great house (before modern times)....what they contained, things like dirty water and kitchen slops and unmentionables. Whereas vessels of honour are filled with things like wine and storing precious items and serving good food (remember it is a great house, not a common one, so they ate and drank from gold and silver plates and goblets).
I'm glad for 777's insight....that was not revealed to him by FLESH and blood but by the Father in heaven (through the Holy SPIRIT)....made that scripture sing and minister to me. In that moment of understanding he had the mind of Christ, of Christ's SPIRIT, not his own mind of flesh (the flesh profits nothing), and was being a vessel of honour pouring out what is pure and honourable.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2020 7:32:26 GMT -5
Amen! I would say that's a bulls-eye brother. Perishable and imperishable.....flesh and spirit. Exactly what I have been yammering about. Wood and clay are perishable, speaking to what is carnal, fleshly.........while silver and gold are imperishable alluding to the spiritual. If we purge ourselves of the former we can become vessels of honour. Lets take a look at what you are saying. If I am taking you right, you are saying that in our temple, there are thoughts that are carnal and thoughts that are spiritual, and we should seek to get rid of the carnal thoughts and retain the spiritual thoughts to be a vessel of honor. I understand what you are saying, but you also said, this is what you have been "yammering about." The problem is, when you have been "yammering about" being spiritual in your thinking, you have been claiming that you personally are thinking spiritually and others are thinking carnally, and therefore, if they would only be spiritual like you, they would agree with you. This is making the assumption that you don't have a mind full of wood and earth.
How do we determine who is spiritual and who is carnal? I use the Bible as the way to tell. Does what the person is saying match up with scripture? If it does, they are spiritual. If not, they are carnal. If I am understanding you correctly, you don't want to be judged that way. You would come back and say that "the letter killeth," and the way you mean that is to say that we can't go by the precise words of the Biblical text, but we have to go by what the Spirit is speaking to us as individuals. What the Spirit is speaking to us as individuals can be contrary to what the precise words in the Biblical text say.
I take the approach that we must go by the precise words in the Biblical text. You say that we can't always do that. As a result, we butt heads. Am I wrong in how I am taking you? I am trying to figure out how you arrive at the conclusions you do? If I had just read your comments to 777, without considering what you said about this being what you have been "yammering about," I wouldn't have thought anything about what you said, except it was just agreeing with 777, but when I take it in light of what you have been "yammering about" in other posts, I feel like I need to get to the bottom of this to perhaps figure out once and for all your approach to scripture.
The word of God is a lamp unto our feet....but it needs OIL (Holy Spirit) in order to be lit up. Otherwise the lamp is dark....darkness (so yes, it killeth). That's all I have been trying to say.....it is just scriptural truth. People get offended when someone uses the word carnal...carnal just means of the flesh....and my mind of flesh is just as carnal as anybody's, my flesh is just as weak as anybody's.....we all need the Holy Spirit to illuminate (light up) the word to our understanding. He is the only one who can give us ears to hear and eyes to see. I believe from scripture and experience that this is something we GROW in as we die to ourselves.....purged mainly through the sufferings and chastisements of the believer that the Shepherd of our souls leads us through, along with denying ourselves, starving "self" to death as we follow and obey Jesus in His leading for our lives.
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Post by John on Feb 4, 2020 7:44:50 GMT -5
What I understand from scripture is that we need to be relying on the Holy Spirit, not on ourselves and our own minds. We are the vessels in the Father's house and can purge ourselves of what is perishable (flesh,carnal) in order to rely on, walk in, obey, the Holy Spirit (imperishable like gold and silver)...be vessels of the Holy Spirit rather than self. And that includes our carnal minds (flesh), in order to have the mind of Christ (spiritual). Die to self and grow in the Spirit and in understanding in other words as we purge (clean) our vessels of things that are perishable. Just think what wooden and clay vessels are used for in a great house (before modern times)....what they contained, things like dirty water and kitchen slops and unmentionables. Whereas vessels of honour are filled with things like wine and storing precious items and serving good food (remember it is a great house, not a common one, so they ate and drank from gold and silver plates and goblets). I'm glad for 777's insight....that was not revealed to him by FLESH and blood but by the Father in heaven (through the Holy SPIRIT)....made that scripture sing and minister to me. In that moment of understanding he had the mind of Christ, of Christ's SPIRIT, not his own mind of flesh (the flesh profits nothing), and was being a vessel of honour pouring out what is pure and honourable. What 777 said makes sense, but lets consider this. It is new insight, not what others are teaching, so how do we determine if it is from God? We see if it lines up with scripture. Having examined it, I believe it does. If it didn't, it means it was of the flesh. God will never go against His Word.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2020 7:53:28 GMT -5
What I understand from scripture is that we need to be relying on the Holy Spirit, not on ourselves and our own minds. We are the vessels in the Father's house and can purge ourselves of what is perishable (flesh,carnal) in order to rely on, walk in, obey, the Holy Spirit (imperishable like gold and silver)...be vessels of the Holy Spirit rather than self. And that includes our carnal minds (flesh), in order to have the mind of Christ (spiritual). Die to self and grow in the Spirit and in understanding in other words as we purge (clean) our vessels of things that are perishable. Just think what wooden and clay vessels are used for in a great house (before modern times)....what they contained, things like dirty water and kitchen slops and unmentionables. Whereas vessels of honour are filled with things like wine and storing precious items and serving good food (remember it is a great house, not a common one, so they ate and drank from gold and silver plates and goblets). I'm glad for 777's insight....that was not revealed to him by FLESH and blood but by the Father in heaven (through the Holy SPIRIT)....made that scripture sing and minister to me. In that moment of understanding he had the mind of Christ, of Christ's SPIRIT, not his own mind of flesh (the flesh profits nothing), and was being a vessel of honour pouring out what is pure and honourable. What 777 said makes sense, but lets consider this. It is new insight, not what others are teaching, so how do we determine if it is from God? We see if it lines up with scripture. Having examined it, I believe it does. If it didn't, it means it was of the flesh. God will never go against His Word.
True brother, but have we considered that we also need the Holy Spirit in order to test things against His word? Growing in the Spirit is not optional.....it's a matter of life and death because the carnal mind is ENMITY with God.....it will oppose the things that are truly of HIS SPIRIT.....and nor can it perceive the things of His Spirit. Our carnal minds will always lead us in a way that SEEMETH right to it, but leads to death. We need the Holy Spirit, and be relying on Him.....we serve a LIVING God remember. He did not die and then sprinkle his ashes in the bible, but He is alive and called our HELPER....because we always need His help.
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Post by John on Feb 4, 2020 7:59:30 GMT -5
Lets take a look at what you are saying. If I am taking you right, you are saying that in our temple, there are thoughts that are carnal and thoughts that are spiritual, and we should seek to get rid of the carnal thoughts and retain the spiritual thoughts to be a vessel of honor. I understand what you are saying, but you also said, this is what you have been "yammering about." The problem is, when you have been "yammering about" being spiritual in your thinking, you have been claiming that you personally are thinking spiritually and others are thinking carnally, and therefore, if they would only be spiritual like you, they would agree with you. This is making the assumption that you don't have a mind full of wood and earth.
How do we determine who is spiritual and who is carnal? I use the Bible as the way to tell. Does what the person is saying match up with scripture? If it does, they are spiritual. If not, they are carnal. If I am understanding you correctly, you don't want to be judged that way. You would come back and say that "the letter killeth," and the way you mean that is to say that we can't go by the precise words of the Biblical text, but we have to go by what the Spirit is speaking to us as individuals. What the Spirit is speaking to us as individuals can be contrary to what the precise words in the Biblical text say.
I take the approach that we must go by the precise words in the Biblical text. You say that we can't always do that. As a result, we butt heads. Am I wrong in how I am taking you? I am trying to figure out how you arrive at the conclusions you do? If I had just read your comments to 777, without considering what you said about this being what you have been "yammering about," I wouldn't have thought anything about what you said, except it was just agreeing with 777, but when I take it in light of what you have been "yammering about" in other posts, I feel like I need to get to the bottom of this to perhaps figure out once and for all your approach to scripture.
The word of God is a lamp unto our feet....but it needs OIL (Holy Spirit) in order to be lit up. Otherwise the lamp is dark....darkness (so yes, it killeth). That's all I have been trying to say.....it is just scriptural truth. People get offended when someone uses the word carnal...carnal just means of the flesh....and my mind of flesh is just as carnal as anybody's, my flesh is just as weak as anybody's.....we all need the Holy Spirit to illuminate (light up) the word to our understanding. He is the only one who can give us ears to hear and eyes to see. I believe from scripture and experience that this is something we GROW in as we die to ourselves.....purged mainly through the sufferings and chastisements of the believer that the Shepherd of our souls leads us through, along with denying ourselves, starving "self" to death as we follow and obey Jesus in His leading for our lives. I agree that we need the Spirit to understand scripture correctly. The flesh uses methods like hermeneutics, and they butcher the scriptures. We have the Holy Spirit as our guide. All I am saying is that no matter who is claiming the Spirit is leading them into understanding, we must check their beliefs against the Holy Bible. I do that with anyone, including myself. If I have an idea come to me, I compare it with the scriptures, and if it doesn't match up, it is not from God.
To give you a couple of examples, the scriptures say thou shalt not kill, so if someone claims the Spirit gave them peace about having an abortion, I know it is not really from God. The Bible says not to steal, so if someone claims the Spirit gave them leave to steal a watch they really want from Wal-Mart, because they can afford it, and this person deserves it, I know they are not hearing from God. We have to be careful about the voices we are listening to. Look how many people that committed mass murder claim that God led them to do it.
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Post by John on Feb 4, 2020 8:02:16 GMT -5
What 777 said makes sense, but lets consider this. It is new insight, not what others are teaching, so how do we determine if it is from God? We see if it lines up with scripture. Having examined it, I believe it does. If it didn't, it means it was of the flesh. God will never go against His Word.
True brother, but have we considered that we also need the Holy Spirit in order to test things against His word? Growing in the Spirit is not optional.....it's a matter of life and death because the carnal mind is ENMITY with God.....it will oppose the things that are truly of HIS SPIRIT.....and nor can it perceive the things of His Spirit. Our carnal minds will always lead us in a way that SEEMETH right to it, but leads to death. We need the Holy Spirit, and be relying on Him.....we serve a LIVING God remember. He did not die and then sprinkle his ashes in the bible, but He is alive and called our HELPER....because we always need His help. One quick question. Can you explain the point you were trying to make when you said, "He did not die and then sprinkle his ashes on the Bible?" What are you trying to say with that?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2020 8:13:16 GMT -5
True brother, but have we considered that we also need the Holy Spirit in order to test things against His word? Growing in the Spirit is not optional.....it's a matter of life and death because the carnal mind is ENMITY with God.....it will oppose the things that are truly of HIS SPIRIT.....and nor can it perceive the things of His Spirit. Our carnal minds will always lead us in a way that SEEMETH right to it, but leads to death. We need the Holy Spirit, and be relying on Him.....we serve a LIVING God remember. He did not die and then sprinkle his ashes in the bible, but He is alive and called our HELPER....because we always need His help. One quick question. Can you explain the point you were trying to make when you said, "He did not die and then sprinkle his ashes on the Bible?" What are you trying to say with that? I was equating dead ashes to the ink in a bible....an allegory for a dead letter.....the letter that kills. Jesus is alive, not dead...we have a personal living relationship with Him. We serve in the new way of the SPIRIT, not the old way of the letter. I think one thing that can hinder us is wanting to cling to our own righteousness in serving a dead letter rather than submitting to the righteousness of Christ, which is of His Spirit. The more we realize that in me is no good thing and that my heart is deceitfully wicked, who can know it, the more we will seek the Lord for His righteousness and His Spirit.
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