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Post by solid on Feb 6, 2020 16:47:02 GMT -5
Bondage is the consequence and chastisement for an initial idolatry.....rather than the cause. Then it becomes a chicken and egg kind of quandry that the person is stuck in. And then only the Lord can deliver a person from the bondages that come about due to idolatry of any kind. For the believer in Christ it is no longer rebellion being imputed to them (bondages are not wilfull/deliberate sins when the believer wants out of it)......but it is a case of what Paul was saying, that with the mind I want to serve the Lord, but with the body (in my flesh) I am not able to....who shall deliver me from this body of death? It can be a battle in prayer and seeking the Lord until the victory is won.....and the Lord is not condemning a child of God meanwhile who acknowledges their sin and are engaged in fighting it with Him. Most people see Romans chapter 7 as talking about a struggle Christians have with the flesh, but I don't believe that is what it means. I believe that Paul was speaking of what it was like living under the law of Moses. People desired to live right and obey the law, but found they could not. Then you get to Romans chapter 8, and Paul speaks of new life through Jesus Christ. He gives us the power to overcome the flesh, whereas the law could not do that.
That is interesting. I need to go back and examine that further.
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Post by John on Feb 6, 2020 18:58:03 GMT -5
Most people see Romans chapter 7 as talking about a struggle Christians have with the flesh, but I don't believe that is what it means. I believe that Paul was speaking of what it was like living under the law of Moses. People desired to live right and obey the law, but found they could not. Then you get to Romans chapter 8, and Paul speaks of new life through Jesus Christ. He gives us the power to overcome the flesh, whereas the law could not do that.
That is interesting. I need to go back and examine that further. I have told this before, but I will repeat it. In reference to Romans chapter 7 and 8, as someone who is familiar with Wesleyan doctrine, I knew that they taught that Romans 7 and before was speaking of a man or woman before they experienced sanctification. Romans chapter 8 was supposed to be after a man or woman experienced a second definite work of grace, sanctification. The Baptist look at Romans 7 as describing a struggle all Christians go through all the time, powerless to do anything but be a slave to sin. I never thought either made sense, and sought the Lord for the truth. There have been times where I got an instant answer to a question about the Bible, but not in this case. I sought for years. I asked ministers their opinion, but I never got a good answer.
One day, I listened to the book of Romans straight through on cd. I had done this before, with no satisfactory answer, but this time was different. I was listening, and it was like I was given spiritual insight. I understood it with no problem, to the point where I couldn't believe I hadn't seen it already. I couldn't understand how everyone had missed what Paul was saying. He was speaking of himself and other sincere Jews trying to live by the law. They loved God and the law, but could never overcome the flesh. The things he and his fellow Jews desired to do, they couldn't. The flesh kept getting in the way, and they wound up doing the things they hated. Romans 8 was not describing sanctification as a second definite work of grace, but the result of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. He was no longer a slave to sin. It really doesn't matter so much to me if people accept this or not, but I share it because of the long time of frustration I went to seeking the answer. Freely we have received. Freely give.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2020 11:11:07 GMT -5
Bondage is the consequence and chastisement for an initial idolatry.....rather than the cause. Then it becomes a chicken and egg kind of quandry that the person is stuck in. And then only the Lord can deliver a person from the bondages that come about due to idolatry of any kind. For the believer in Christ it is no longer rebellion being imputed to them (bondages are not wilfull/deliberate sins when the believer wants out of it)......but it is a case of what Paul was saying, that with the mind I want to serve the Lord, but with the body (in my flesh) I am not able to....who shall deliver me from this body of death? It can be a battle in prayer and seeking the Lord until the victory is won.....and the Lord is not condemning a child of God meanwhile who acknowledges their sin and are engaged in fighting it with Him. I agree with that. I was only saying that people sometimes worship idols out of fear, and not in worship of self. I know what you mean, though I believe fear itself is really a form of bondage and idolatry.....it can be overcome, but not by ourselves, with the Help of the Lord, ie, His Spirit.
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Post by John on Feb 9, 2020 18:42:37 GMT -5
Actually, disobeying those who have the rule over us is rebellion. Rebellion is imputed to us like any other sin is imputed to us. It is just as serious as if a person is involved in witchcraft.
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you. Hebrews 13:17
Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men: As free, and not using your liberty as a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God. Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king. Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward. 1 Peter 2:13-18
When the Bible speaks of liberty, it does not mean liberty to disobey authorities when we don't like what they tell us to do. It means we are free from the curse of the law. It means we are no longer servants to sin. If you look at what it teaches in Romans and in 2 Corinthians, that is what it means.
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Post by frienduff on Feb 9, 2020 20:33:24 GMT -5
I agree with that. I was only saying that people sometimes worship idols out of fear, and not in worship of self. I know what you mean, though I believe fear itself is really a form of bondage and idolatry.....it can be overcome, but not by ourselves, with the Help of the Lord, ie, His Spirit. Fear of man and what he can do is bondage . But What I say to one I say to all , Fear not man who is able to kill the body , but rather FEAR HIM who is able to destroy both body and soul . Fearing the LORD is a beautiful thing , fearing man is death .
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